The Logic Off Topic list

Tony Thompson wrote:

>... I have to say that I don't (yet - may be a function of
>who taught me, how they taught me or my attitude and understanding when I
>was taught maths) see the patterns at all.
I have to say that IMO a lot of this is probably due to the way you were 
taught.

>I wanted to make the point that
>it is the discerning of pattern/structure which gives the sense of beauty
>and makes one want to go deeper.
Yes.

>I did a degree in Psychology an awfully long time ago,
My sincere commiserations to you. !!!!

>which may well
>explain my attitude to social sciences as manifested on this list recently,
>ie cynical to a great degree.
Well ... the cynicism's entirely understandable, actually. And not at all 
misplaced IMO.

>As an area for study it benefits from dropping
>of the insecure longing to be accepted in 'hard science' terms
Couldn't agree more.

>I am interested in the outlook of Neuro-Linguistic Programming,
Aaaaah!! Good old Bandler and Grindler. A nice little 'we've got something 
for everyone' theory that one.

Premise: We were given brains.
Additional Premise: Unfortunately ... the powers-that-be (whoever they are) 
forgot the user manual.

But ... don't worry good people because ....
Brave New World Conclusion: "Neuro-linguistic programming offers you a 
user-manual to your brain".
I forget who first said that. I think I've got the quote right, haven't I?

Another one I remember is:
"We can teach people to change by teaching them to reprogramme their brains".

All that's needed is for neuro-linguistically programme to teach us some 
effective communication skills ... and maybe add a touch of self-hypnosis, 
some motivatational seminars ... and anyone can be taught how to change 
themselves. You can become anything you want.

If you do not do well at school then probably you are just being badly 
taught. Your teachers have not communicated with you in the right kind of 
language. Tell them to come see us NLP experts and we will teach them how 
to communicate with you better. Anyway, you were'nt really wrong as such 
when you said 2+2-5. It's all just feedback.

>which is quite jokey and playful
True. I must confess that I personally did find it hard to take, although I 
tried very hard to accept its ideas. Maybe I should just have reprogrammed 
my neurons to be more mirthful about it all. Which is pretty much what one 
of the articles I read once actually said -- that if anyone finished 
reading the article a sceptic then it was because the reader had not 
properly reprogrammed themselves and not because there was something in the 
article that entitled the person to feel that way about the information 
being presented. One of the best conclusions to an article I ever read, to 
be honest!!

>and which also seems to have some powerful ideas one
>can tinker with immediately.
I never did understand their power, I must confess. Or -- just to repeat 
myself -- maybe I should instead say that I never succeeded in 
reprogramming my brain so that it made a great deal of to me. My fault 
probably!! I obviously never gained the requisite degree of control over 
the 'autonomic functions of our own neurology' so therefore I had 
insufficient ''self-esteem', insufficient 'self-realization', and so was 
unable to 'achieve my highest potential' ... which would probably have 
shown itself best if I had become a true disciple of NLP.

>One example is the idea that individuals may
>have a preferred sensory modality - sight, touch, taste, smell, whatever -
>by which they attach meaning to events and memories.
Aaaah!! The memories!!!
Here's a nice little on-line test for anyone who's interested in 
determining their own PSM (preferred sensory modality)
http://www.primenet.com/~suejahns/NAUsensory.html

>If I don't get the pattern in maths yet maybe it's
>because I haven't encountered it in a sensory modality which is comfortable
>for me.
Well ... I hate to backtrack and actually look as if I'm actually agreeing 
with GA Moore and Hendrik Jan (Hi guys!!), but I think the basic idea here 
is that the patterns in mathematics are not in fact properly expressible in 
any given sensory modality. They kind of transcend them all so that the 
beauty and appreciation of the patterns in for example 'a good theorem' or 
is kind of due to a near-instinctive sensing of a 'pattern that stands 
behind all patterns'; and thus in a kind of sensory modality that 
transcends all sensory modalities. Plato rabbitted on about that kind of 
thing all the time although as with pretty much everything Plato said, it's 
kind of a bit dubious and kind of hard to give proper credence to the way 
he says it. But ... that's just me and Plato.

I think, actually, that anyone who can say this: "Can I first thank other 
people for giving me an insight into how 'vibed'they get by maths"; and who 
can also say this "I wanted to make the point that it is the discerning of 
pattern/structure which gives the sense of beauty and makes one want to go 
deeper" ... is already actually pretty much there.

To adopt the kind of language of NLP and PSM, just close your eyes, relax, 
and simply empower yourself to permit yourself to be taken deeper. Don't 
fight it, babe! It's just that you've programmed and re-programmed yourself 
these many years to be cynical. Let it go. Reprogramme yourself!! Allow 
yourself to sink into that state of reorganizing your subjective 
experiences. Dream on. Use those dreams to reprogramme your neurons. That's 
it!!! Visualize. Embrace. It's not about what you're seeing. It's not about 
what you're smelling. Or tasting. It's not about any physically-based 
modality whatever. Release. Reprogramme Do the new neuron dance.

How am I doing??!!!!

On a practical level, if you're actually serious about, interested in, 
those patterns, perhaps you might enjoy:
Mathematics: The Science of Patterns, by Keith Devlin
The problems of mathematics, Ian Stewart


>I could extend and improvise on this idea to suggest that on this
>list we may be encountering a lot of this sort of thing -  what might be
>called individual specifics in the way that people understand posts,
>mediated through people from different backgrounds using English which is a
>slippery language at the best of times.
Well ... setting my cynicism regarding the overall abilities of NLP to 
explain anything aside, I tend to agree with you on this.

>I remember talking to an Indian
>woman once - a native Hindi speaker if I'm correct- who suggested that the
>best way to see English was as a sort of super-Creole or patois, a vibrant
>mixture of all sorts of linguistic elements which was very elastic and had
>room for lots of ambiguity.
Yes. Indian English is one of the more interesting of the Englishes around.

Since you're a kind of closet sociologist, did you know that there was an 
International Association for World Englishes? Seems to be some kind of 
international group for everything these days!! The IAWE is due to have 
their 8th conference in South Africa in a couple of weeks. One of my 
friends is going along. I think this year's theme is about the implicit 
tension between the globalization of English which is what allows it to act 
the globalized patois or 'super-Creole' as you so nicely put it. Seems like 
that's the only way it can really be universal and useful. But against 
that, there's the inevitability of local contextualization. English is sure 
to be particularized otherwise it cannot be properly useful 'on the ground' 
and to separate and given groups of people.

>Which leads to individual misunderstandings...
Yes. And not just individual, either. If a word is used in one way in one 
form of English, but is used in quite another way in another, then what 
starts off life as an innocent news report in one country's English becomes 
an inflammatory piece of jingoism in another's English.

>This is fascinating stuff.
I'm with you, there!! I really love that stuff. I just adore anything to do 
with language. But it's probably real tedious to lots of others.

>We owe it to each other to learn
>about these things, without beating ourselves up if we don't get it all
>first time round.
Careful ... your NLP sympathies are showing through!! (Just a joke).

>Having been around buddhism, meditation and other Eastern-influenced stuff a
>bit I have shaken off enough of the hangovers of a Western Catholic
>upbringing to see being able to bow to others when one feels like it as not
>subservience but a way of respecting others and therefore a way of
>respecting oneself.
Wow. You really ARE a lost cause!! I think what you need is a crash course 
in WASP re-programming right smartish!!!! Tell you what ... I'll meet you 
in that pub on your High Street in just a few moments and I'll help you 
reprogramme yourself right back to that Western Catholicism stuff, OK??!!!!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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