The Logic Off Topic list

teddybut wrote: 
>> that sounds about right. Maybe it would have a better
>> reputation if they wouldn't take all the posers $. I just didn't feel like
>> waiting around for 2 semesters for the posers to drop out. I suppose that
>> Berklee is more of a realistic scenario as far as the percentage of
>> musicians who suck in real life. At Miami, there were %0 posers. They have
>> very high standards for entrance.
> 
> Funny, by the likes of what you are saying.  I often felt like a lot of
> these Berklee and University types were in fact more Poser than
> anything else.

agreed in a real world context. i think people *in* school have a different
definition for poser than normal. see below
> 
> A poser is someone who follows a trend, and poses in that fashion.  But
> is not true to the fashion, because they are in emulation of the
> concept.  Not, in creation of the concept.  Most of what I hear from
> graduates is very much indicative of the word "Poser".  Sorry.  But
> often very true.  I am not trying to diminish education.  But really, a
> lot of work, surrounded by educated artist, sounds very derivative to
> me.  Not that the opposite doesn't apply either.
> 
> I have met Self Taught's that were better than Graduates.  Even
> graduates will go, "wow, that person is good".  I think we have all
> experienced this.  I think it really applies to all angles of
> creativity as well.

what about self taughts who went to school too? For me, there's an equal
percentage of U grads and self taughts that suck and are good. If you got
it, you got it. School can't take it away. School can influence you too much
if you were sheltered before you got there though. If you start improvising
naturally at age 5 on a baritone ukelele no school can mess up that
education.
> 
> poser
> n 1: a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not [syn:
> poseur]
> Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> poser
> n. A wannabee; not hacker slang, but used among crackers, phreaks and
> warez d00dz. Not as negative as lamer or leech. Probably derives from a
> similar usage among punk-rockers and metalheads, putting down those who
> "talk the talk but don't walk the walk".
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the definition for people at school is the same, but different. the
posers are the ones who can't play at all, look really good in spandex, want
to be a musician to get laid and generally fail out of their first 2
semesters and leave to go back home and work at the gas station. Not that
there's anything wrong with gas stations, I just didn't want to be in school
with those people. too much work to find the good people.
> 
> Not all the greats came from universities.  Jimi Hendrix, George
> Gershwin or Edith Piaf.  I know that Miles Davis left Julliard, his
> reason was..."too much white music".  I know that John Lennon went to
> art school, barely graduating.  And yet Albert Einstein failed Algebra
> classes 3 times.  Django Rhienhart was a gypsy, no education.  Lost
> most of his mobility in his left hand during a horrible fire that
> severely burned him.  Then turned himself around, and continued playing
> with only two fingers.  Yet not one player I have ever met, can play
> with the same heart as he did.  He just bounces right out the speakers
> at every spin.  Aretha Franklin sang most of her young life, in church
> choir...just because she loved it.  Her first album will rip your heart
> out and it was done in seventy two hours.  Pure, untainted, raw,
> natural talent, that no woman has yet to come, without placing homage
> to Aretha.  Ray Charles.  Stevie Wonder.  Hmmm...So, who is the poser?

listening to Blues records is an education. singing in a gospell choir is an
education. Like I said before, music school (for me) was good for
networking. I had three great classes. advanced Composition, advanced
improvisation and the arranging class. I got 2 D's in a row in my guitar
lesson because i didn't want to do what the teacher was asking me to do. I
would come into the lesson and show him all the stuff i was working on and
he'd try to steer me into being well rounded by earning things I just didn't
like. I never wanted to be well rounded as a musician, I just wanted to be
myself. I now thank him for forcing me to define that in my head but at the
time it was painful. He tried in vain to get my scholarship revoked and the
head of the department worked it out so I could study with the sax teacher
instead. I went back to NYC disgusted after 3.5 years of school.

stevie wonder certainly *studied* harmony, just not in school. he listened
to records. That's what the best teachers will teach you anyway. My guitar
teacher in high school taught me *how to teach myself*. That's why U of
miami was, except for those few great classes that were worth the 3.5 years
of hanging around, an excersize in networking for future gigs.

for me, theory was to be learned so it could be immediately forgotten. I
could give a 3 hour lecture at the university level on modal harmony and
composition but if I thought about that shiite when I actually wrote I'd be
F&^%cked. no feeling.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is...you can't teach creativity,
> individuality and ingenuity...all you can do is give someone the tools
> and rules.  

and teach that it's ok to break the rules?

> But at a certain point, it is really up to the individual
> to shape themselves.  Just because one can sit at a piano and pick out
> songs by ear...doesn't make them great as a songwriter or player.  It
> just means, they have good ear.  The idea of school is to accelerate
> ones process.  But in no way does that make them better than someone
> who is self taught, or skipped ear training class to get laid.

yes yes yes. getting laid can be a good education for music, fer sure...
especially if you're rhythmic in bed!
> 
> Making this comment to be more true, than anything that has been said.

which rhymes with laid, kind of.
> 
>> to me, music school is an oxymoron. If I had it do over, I'd stay in
>> NYC and
>> take private lessons and play gigs. I did enjoy my time at Miami and
>> the
>> school is excellent but I'm not sure it was the best way to go. I
>> learned
>> more from my high school guitar teacher than I did in music school,
>> but I'm
>> a freak of nature and that certainly is not the norm. Music school was
>> more
>> of a place to meet future co-workers. For me it should have been called
>> "music networking for future gigs school"...
> 
> Especially when dealing with Creative studies.  Leaving other studies
> like programming, medicine, law, etc. really necessary to have an
> academic approach.  Yet, I have talked to some programmers that said
> the same thing about education being rather "eh", when it came down to
> preparing them for the real world.  Most were already programming at
> age 12, so their teachers weren't giving them enough breathing space.
> Yet some the only reasons to go art school, is to learn proportions,
> life drawing, and few other semantics.  After that, go bye-bye...there
> really is no point in staying.

there's a point to staying in music school if you want to be a teacher. Or a
theorist. Or an orchestrator. to find your own voice on your instrument it
is unnecessary.
> 
> Secular study or practice is often to rigid for creativity.  If the
> individual receives it all in the right way, it can serve them as good
> tools.  But if the individual receives to much structural inhibitions,
> it could serve to diminish the quality that inherently already exists.
> Leonardo Da Vinci, was recognized as a young genius who painted better
> than his master, during his small stint as an apprentice at age 14.
> Lucky for him, his Master was brave enough to admit his student was
> superior to his own work.  Kind of what separates Vladamir Horwitz from
> the rest, despite the fact that he came from a strict regiment of "You
> play it like this, or no pudding with your meat".  One then, recognizes
> the need to be "you" at all times.

it's all about discipline and commitment in your craft no matter how you
slice it, school or no school. even Keith Richards has his own form of
discipline. Lemon Absolut.

teddybut