The Logic Off Topic list

I wrote:
>>>> If you are going to Berklee College of Music to get an education,
>>>> you'll be sorely disappointed.
> 
Nick Batzdorf  wrote:
> You get out ten times what you put in. Ten times nothing is nothing.
> Is that sufficiently patronizing?
> Good, because I got an excellent education.

hahahaha... I like your attitude. I believe exactly the same thing. I meant
no harm, that was just my limited experience at Berklee for only a 2 week
visit after getting a full scholarship. I ended up going to University of
Miami which had a much more personalized approach from the get go and felt a
lot more well rounded. Plus it was warm.

I wrote:
>> Allow me to clarify: If you are going to berklee college of music to get a
>> WELL ROUNDED education you'll be disappointed. the music curriculum there is
>> certainly fine. If you like a factory atmosphere, it's the place to go.

I'm sorry I got involved in this thread and I'm not going to reply on list
anymore to this topic since it's so obviously OT and gets people riled up
when someone expresses a strong opinion. I heard this about the academics
from people who went there. Sorry if I was insulting your school. I didn't
like it, but that doesn't mean anything. Different strokes... my advice to
anyone searching for a music school to attend is "visit a few places for
more than a week each, sit in on some classes, if you feel good there,
attend."

Nick Batzdorf wrote:
> Bah. It's been a while since I was there (1979 - 81), but it was only
> a little bit of a factory the first two semesters. After that all the
> 19-year-olds who only became interested in music the year before (and
> just want to play guitar with their shirts off) drop out. Then it
> becomes a fantastic environment with lots of great musicians from all
> over the world and some excellent faculty.

that sounds about right. Maybe it would have a better reputation if they
wouldn't take all the posers $. I just didn't feel like waiting around for 2
semesters for the posers to drop out. I suppose that Berklee is more of a
realistic scenario as far as the percentage of musicians who suck in real
life. At Miami, there were %0 posers. They have very high standards for
entrance.

Nick Batzdorf wrote:
> And the academic classes I took were excellent too.

good. I stand corrected.

Nick Batzdorf wrote:
> You're going to hear good and bad things about any school, but I
> wouldn't trade that experience for anything.

to me, music school is an oxymoron. If I had it do over, I'd stay in NYC and
take private lessons and play gigs. I did enjoy my time at Miami and the
school is excellent but I'm not sure it was the best way to go. I learned
more from my high school guitar teacher than I did in music school, but I'm
a freak of nature and that certainly is not the norm. Music school was more
of a place to meet future co-workers. For me it should have been called
"music networking for future gigs school"...

peace,
Teddybut

ok...

I sense that some of you are getting a bit defensive about Berklee. I won't
get into a "who got to play with who in college" pissing match with anyone,
that's just childish. I haven't mentioned any of the people I got to play
with at the University of Miami and I won't unless it's in the context of a
non defensive discussion. I don't feel I have to prove anything about the
University of Miami.

I'm glad you guys got a lot out of Berklee. More power to you.

teddybut

teddybut wrote:
> that sounds about right. Maybe it would have a better reputation if 
> they
> wouldn't take all the posers $. I just didn't feel like waiting around 
> for 2
> semesters for the posers to drop out. I suppose that Berklee is more 
> of a
> realistic scenario as far as the percentage of musicians who suck in 
> real
> life. At Miami, there were %0 posers. They have very high standards for
> entrance.

Funny, by the likes of what you are saying.  I often felt like a lot of 
these Berklee and University types were in fact more Poser than 
anything else.

A poser is someone who follows a trend, and poses in that fashion.  But 
is not true to the fashion, because they are in emulation of the 
concept.  Not, in creation of the concept.  Most of what I hear from 
graduates is very much indicative of the word "Poser".  Sorry.  But 
often very true.  I am not trying to diminish education.  But really, a 
lot of work, surrounded by educated artist, sounds very derivative to 
me.  Not that the opposite doesn't apply either.

I usually listen to the individual, not what they are capable of or not 
capable of...but what they are writing as being more important.  Am I 
moved, emotional, am I experiencing what they are telling me in the 
story?  Do I feel connected?

I have met Self Taught's that were better than Graduates.  Even 
graduates will go, "wow, that person is good".  I think we have all 
experienced this.  I think it really applies to all angles of 
creativity as well.

poser
n 1: a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not [syn: 
poseur]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
------------------------------------------------------------------------

poser
n. A wannabee; not hacker slang, but used among crackers, phreaks and 
warez d00dz. Not as negative as lamer or leech. Probably derives from a 
similar usage among punk-rockers and metalheads, putting down those who 
"talk the talk but don't walk the walk".
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not all the greats came from universities.  Jimi Hendrix, George 
Gershwin or Edith Piaf.  I know that Miles Davis left Julliard, his 
reason was..."too much white music".  I know that John Lennon went to 
art school, barely graduating.  And yet Albert Einstein failed Algebra 
classes 3 times.  Django Rhienhart was a gypsy, no education.  Lost 
most of his mobility in his left hand during a horrible fire that 
severely burned him.  Then turned himself around, and continued playing 
with only two fingers.  Yet not one player I have ever met, can play 
with the same heart as he did.  He just bounces right out the speakers 
at every spin.  Aretha Franklin sang most of her young life, in church 
choir...just because she loved it.  Her first album will rip your heart 
out and it was done in seventy two hours.  Pure, untainted, raw, 
natural talent, that no woman has yet to come, without placing homage 
to Aretha.  Ray Charles.  Stevie Wonder.  Hmmm...So, who is the poser?

I guess what I am trying to say is...you can't teach creativity, 
individuality and ingenuity...all you can do is give someone the tools 
and rules.  But at a certain point, it is really up to the individual 
to shape themselves.  Just because one can sit at a piano and pick out 
songs by ear...doesn't make them great as a songwriter or player.  It 
just means, they have good ear.  The idea of school is to accelerate 
ones process.  But in no way does that make them better than someone 
who is self taught, or skipped ear training class to get laid.

Making this comment to be more true, than anything that has been said.

> to me, music school is an oxymoron. If I had it do over, I'd stay in 
> NYC and
> take private lessons and play gigs. I did enjoy my time at Miami and 
> the
> school is excellent but I'm not sure it was the best way to go. I 
> learned
> more from my high school guitar teacher than I did in music school, 
> but I'm
> a freak of nature and that certainly is not the norm. Music school was 
> more
> of a place to meet future co-workers. For me it should have been called
> "music networking for future gigs school"...

Especially when dealing with Creative studies.  Leaving other studies 
like programming, medicine, law, etc. really necessary to have an 
academic approach.  Yet, I have talked to some programmers that said 
the same thing about education being rather "eh", when it came down to 
preparing them for the real world.  Most were already programming at 
age 12, so their teachers weren't giving them enough breathing space.  
Yet some the only reasons to go art school, is to learn proportions, 
life drawing, and few other semantics.  After that, go bye-bye...there 
really is no point in staying.

Secular study or practice is often to rigid for creativity.  If the 
individual receives it all in the right way, it can serve them as good 
tools.  But if the individual receives to much structural inhibitions, 
it could serve to diminish the quality that inherently already exists.  
Leonardo Da Vinci, was recognized as a young genius who painted better 
than his master, during his small stint as an apprentice at age 14.  
Lucky for him, his Master was brave enough to admit his student was 
superior to his own work.  Kind of what separates Vladamir Horwitz from 
the rest, despite the fact that he came from a strict regiment of "You 
play it like this, or no pudding with your meat".  One then, recognizes 
the need to be "you" at all times.

Peace,
Alexis

At 01:51 PM 10/3/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>ok...
>
>I sense that some of you are getting a bit defensive about Berklee. I won't
>get into a "who got to play with who in college" pissing match with anyone,
>that's just childish. I haven't mentioned any of the people I got to play
>with at the University of Miami and I won't unless it's in the context of a
>non defensive discussion. I don't feel I have to prove anything about the
>University of Miami.
>
>I'm glad you guys got a lot out of Berklee. More power to you.
>
>teddybut

It's not about being defensive about Berklee, it's about your remarks which 
where childish ("if you like the factory kinda thing and don't want a well 
rounded education). Look, if you're going to make comments like that, then 
expect to be shot down. Saying people we played with isn't a pissing match 
my friend, it's pointing out that those people aren't factory like, thus 
disproving your point. It doesn't matter what school you're talking about, 
just that you were/are wrong and giving out misinformation to people. If we 
didn't respond, the original poster would have bad information on that 
school. I feel it is my duty to correct this misinformation. Heck, I have 
no attachment to the school, I dropped out to do recordings for EMI. If 
someone said the same thing about Miami, would you just sit by and agree? 
Then would you not be more offended that you are called childish for 
correcting them? I'm glad you got a lot out of Miami, more power to you 
too. ;-)

Colin Miller

At 12:18 PM 10/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Funny, by the likes of what you are saying.  I often felt like a lot of
>these Berklee and University types were in fact more Poser than
>anything else.
>
>A poser is someone who follows a trend, and poses in that fashion.  But
>is not true to the fashion, because they are in emulation of the
>concept.  Not, in creation of the concept.  Most of what I hear from
>graduates is very much indicative of the word "Poser".  Sorry.  But
>often very true.  I am not trying to diminish education.  But really, a
>lot of work, surrounded by educated artist, sounds very derivative to
>me.  Not that the opposite doesn't apply either.
>
>I usually listen to the individual, not what they are capable of or not
>capable of...but what they are writing as being more important.  Am I
>moved, emotional, am I experiencing what they are telling me in the
>story?  Do I feel connected?
>
>I have met Self Taught's that were better than Graduates.  Even
>graduates will go, "wow, that person is good".  I think we have all
>experienced this.  I think it really applies to all angles of
>creativity as well.
>
>Not all the greats came from universities.  Jimi Hendrix, George
>Gershwin or Edith Piaf.  I know that Miles Davis left Julliard, his
>reason was..."too much white music".  I know that John Lennon went to
>art school, barely graduating.  And yet Albert Einstein failed Algebra
>classes 3 times.  Django Rhienhart was a gypsy, no education.  Lost
>most of his mobility in his left hand during a horrible fire that
>severely burned him.  Then turned himself around, and continued playing
>with only two fingers.  Yet not one player I have ever met, can play
>with the same heart as he did.  He just bounces right out the speakers
>at every spin.  Aretha Franklin sang most of her young life, in church
>choir...just because she loved it.  Her first album will rip your heart
>out and it was done in seventy two hours.  Pure, untainted, raw,
>natural talent, that no woman has yet to come, without placing homage
>to Aretha.  Ray Charles.  Stevie Wonder.  Hmmm...So, who is the poser?
>
>I guess what I am trying to say is...you can't teach creativity,
>individuality and ingenuity...all you can do is give someone the tools
>and rules.  But at a certain point, it is really up to the individual
>to shape themselves.  Just because one can sit at a piano and pick out
>songs by ear...doesn't make them great as a songwriter or player.  It
>just means, they have good ear.  The idea of school is to accelerate
>ones process.  But in no way does that make them better than someone
>who is self taught, or skipped ear training class to get laid.
>
>Making this comment to be more true, than anything that has been said.
>
>Especially when dealing with Creative studies.  Leaving other studies
>like programming, medicine, law, etc. really necessary to have an
>academic approach.  Yet, I have talked to some programmers that said
>the same thing about education being rather "eh", when it came down to
>preparing them for the real world.  Most were already programming at
>age 12, so their teachers weren't giving them enough breathing space.
>Yet some the only reasons to go art school, is to learn proportions,
>life drawing, and few other semantics.  After that, go bye-bye...there
>really is no point in staying.
>
>Secular study or practice is often to rigid for creativity.  If the
>individual receives it all in the right way, it can serve them as good
>tools.  But if the individual receives to much structural inhibitions,
>it could serve to diminish the quality that inherently already exists.
>Leonardo Da Vinci, was recognized as a young genius who painted better
>than his master, during his small stint as an apprentice at age 14.
>Lucky for him, his Master was brave enough to admit his student was
>superior to his own work.  Kind of what separates Vladamir Horwitz from
>the rest, despite the fact that he came from a strict regiment of "You
>play it like this, or no pudding with your meat".  One then, recognizes
>the need to be "you" at all times.
>
>Peace,
>Alexis

I wouldn't disagree with you (except about the poser thing, which isn't 
true) because it is all correct. However one could name just as many 
examples of successful people who did go to school. It's true that it's not 
needed for everyone, but you are starting to imply that it is almost in 
fact bad for people (though delicately skirting around that issue).  I 
guess I am saying that if you have ten examples of successes that didn't 
need school, and 10 that did, it makes it a moot point. You also have to 
realize that a school is about more than its classrooms. It's about the 
environment of people with a common goal all networking together. This can 
be done anywhere, but in a school it can be very beneficial. I think the 
ones that go to schools and see nothing but 'posers' generally just go to 
the classes and think that is what the school is about. I think I learned 
the least in the classroom and the most in labs and working with other 
classmates on projects. We got to make our mistakes there without the 
consequences of a paying gig. I have to say it was an awesome experience 
for me and much more accelerated than reading books back home and jamming 
with local musicians. It was like taking things to another level. If you 
expect a school to make yourself creative, then of course you won't find 
it. And for many, it's also about getting out of their small town and 
meeting people from all over the world and sharing musical experiences, 
etc. For someone coming out of HS, Music college is a great stepping stone. 
Some day when I am rich enough to settle down, I would like to go back and 
finish school myself. I don't think anyone feels that people who go to 
school are better than people who don't. I also don't think that anyone who 
doesn't go to school is better than someone who does. It certainly won't 
make you worse off. :-)

Colin Miller

I wrote:
>> I sense that some of you are getting a bit defensive about Berklee. I won't
>> get into a "who got to play with who in college" pissing match with anyone,
>> that's just childish. I haven't mentioned any of the people I got to play
>> with at the University of Miami and I won't unless it's in the context of a
>> non defensive discussion. I don't feel I have to prove anything about the
>> University of Miami.
>> 
>> I'm glad you guys got a lot out of Berklee. More power to you.
>> 
>> teddybut
> 
> It's not about being defensive about Berklee, it's about your remarks which
> where childish ("if you like the factory kinda thing and don't want a well
> rounded education).

just my opinion. take it or leave it.

>  Look, 

NO you look! hahahaha

> if you're going to make comments like that, then
> expect to be shot down.

I did and fully accept.

> Saying people we played with isn't a pissing match
> my friend, 

oh, now we're friends? you sound like my junior high school band teacher Joe
Dionisi. 

> it's pointing out that those people aren't factory like, thus
> disproving your point.

like I said in a previous post, "one man's cookie cutter is another man's
holy grail." You can't argue about taste in music. well, I guess you can,
but I don't see why you'd want to.

> It doesn't matter what school you're talking about,
> just that you were/are wrong and giving out misinformation to people.

it's just my opinion, you don't have to agree. it's not misinformation. do
you feel like I'm pressuring you to agree? I'm not and I'm sorry if you are
intimidated by my strong opinions.

>If we 
> didn't respond, the original poster would have bad information on that
> school. 

no, he'd have my opinion

> I feel it is my duty to correct this misinformation.

ok, be the opinion police and enjoy yourself then.

> Heck, I have 
> no attachment to the school, I dropped out to do recordings for EMI. If
> someone said the same thing about Miami, would you just sit by and agree?

no, I'd offer my own opinion and experience and not feel the least bit
defensive. I've only heard those kinds of things said about M.I. and Berklee
though. No one could accuse U of Miami of being a factory atmosphere.
 
> Then would you not be more offended that you are called childish for
> correcting them? I'm glad you got a lot out of Miami, more power to you
> too. ;-)

I think that when people are out to prove something by offering up their
resume or the people they hung with at school they are missing the point of
the post entirely. sorry you were offended by my offering my opinion yet
again. I'm really not out to offend you, I just wanted to share what I think
with the group.

teddybut

>
>I think that when people are out to prove something by offering up their
>resume or the people they hung with at school they are missing the point of
>the post entirely. sorry you were offended by my offering my opinion yet
>again. I'm really not out to offend you, I just wanted to share what I think
>with the group.
>
>teddybut

I feel like I am talking to a wall with you. I have explained this again 
and again. It's not about a resume. People I was in class with are not a 
resume (please don't make me repeat that yet again). My POINT is that these 
people are not cookie cutter, thus disproving your point completely. I am 
not offended in the least, I just don't want your opinion to misguide 
others because it is far from the truth (or lets say complete truth as I 
don't want to dictate what your experience was). And thus my examples which 
you don't seem to get the point of, prove that. I too am living proof as 
well. You could say 'when I was there for two weeks, I didn't have a good 
experience because....'. But no, you said it along the lines of 'If you 
like the factory thing and don't want a well rounded education'. I don't 
even think your intent is bad or malicious and more than my response is 
defensive. But you are probably also unaware that you are in essence 
calling me a poser, a cookie-cutter, etc, etc and come off with a snobby 
attitude (Probably not your intent, but all the same... ). You're calling 
BT, Paul Cole, people like that the same thing. Now if Britney Spears and 
the like went there, I would probably commend your comments (little humor).

Bottom line for the original poster is that while 'some' people may not get 
something out of it (as no school is for everyone), it is not a factory 
atmosphere. Someone mentioned it not being very personal. Well, let me tell 
you I had teachers take me out into their work force to show  me things 
first hand. I had a teacher take me to a mix session and let me co-engineer 
with a paying client. I had a teacher rent outside studio time to teach 
class in. I had teachers spending their personal time with me. I even had 
some hire me for work. If that is a factory and a poser thing, then so be 
it. But to me a poser is someone who is more concerned about image that 
substance, and thus a poser wouldn't be bothered with schooling to begin 
with. Now out of school I am still constantly networking with others I was 
in school with and it has further helped my career indirectly.  So if you 
had this kind of experience (as did everyone I went with) would you not be 
somewhat taken back by someone who went there for two weeks and said it was 
a factory?

I think I am done with my rant since I have made my point. It's certainly 
not for everyone (what place is?) but now there is a positive experience to 
go by.

Colin Miller

teddybut wrote: 
>> that sounds about right. Maybe it would have a better
>> reputation if they wouldn't take all the posers $. I just didn't feel like
>> waiting around for 2 semesters for the posers to drop out. I suppose that
>> Berklee is more of a realistic scenario as far as the percentage of
>> musicians who suck in real life. At Miami, there were %0 posers. They have
>> very high standards for entrance.
> 
> Funny, by the likes of what you are saying.  I often felt like a lot of
> these Berklee and University types were in fact more Poser than
> anything else.

agreed in a real world context. i think people *in* school have a different
definition for poser than normal. see below
> 
> A poser is someone who follows a trend, and poses in that fashion.  But
> is not true to the fashion, because they are in emulation of the
> concept.  Not, in creation of the concept.  Most of what I hear from
> graduates is very much indicative of the word "Poser".  Sorry.  But
> often very true.  I am not trying to diminish education.  But really, a
> lot of work, surrounded by educated artist, sounds very derivative to
> me.  Not that the opposite doesn't apply either.
> 
> I have met Self Taught's that were better than Graduates.  Even
> graduates will go, "wow, that person is good".  I think we have all
> experienced this.  I think it really applies to all angles of
> creativity as well.

what about self taughts who went to school too? For me, there's an equal
percentage of U grads and self taughts that suck and are good. If you got
it, you got it. School can't take it away. School can influence you too much
if you were sheltered before you got there though. If you start improvising
naturally at age 5 on a baritone ukelele no school can mess up that
education.
> 
> poser
> n 1: a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not [syn:
> poseur]
> Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> poser
> n. A wannabee; not hacker slang, but used among crackers, phreaks and
> warez d00dz. Not as negative as lamer or leech. Probably derives from a
> similar usage among punk-rockers and metalheads, putting down those who
> "talk the talk but don't walk the walk".
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the definition for people at school is the same, but different. the
posers are the ones who can't play at all, look really good in spandex, want
to be a musician to get laid and generally fail out of their first 2
semesters and leave to go back home and work at the gas station. Not that
there's anything wrong with gas stations, I just didn't want to be in school
with those people. too much work to find the good people.
> 
> Not all the greats came from universities.  Jimi Hendrix, George
> Gershwin or Edith Piaf.  I know that Miles Davis left Julliard, his
> reason was..."too much white music".  I know that John Lennon went to
> art school, barely graduating.  And yet Albert Einstein failed Algebra
> classes 3 times.  Django Rhienhart was a gypsy, no education.  Lost
> most of his mobility in his left hand during a horrible fire that
> severely burned him.  Then turned himself around, and continued playing
> with only two fingers.  Yet not one player I have ever met, can play
> with the same heart as he did.  He just bounces right out the speakers
> at every spin.  Aretha Franklin sang most of her young life, in church
> choir...just because she loved it.  Her first album will rip your heart
> out and it was done in seventy two hours.  Pure, untainted, raw,
> natural talent, that no woman has yet to come, without placing homage
> to Aretha.  Ray Charles.  Stevie Wonder.  Hmmm...So, who is the poser?

listening to Blues records is an education. singing in a gospell choir is an
education. Like I said before, music school (for me) was good for
networking. I had three great classes. advanced Composition, advanced
improvisation and the arranging class. I got 2 D's in a row in my guitar
lesson because i didn't want to do what the teacher was asking me to do. I
would come into the lesson and show him all the stuff i was working on and
he'd try to steer me into being well rounded by earning things I just didn't
like. I never wanted to be well rounded as a musician, I just wanted to be
myself. I now thank him for forcing me to define that in my head but at the
time it was painful. He tried in vain to get my scholarship revoked and the
head of the department worked it out so I could study with the sax teacher
instead. I went back to NYC disgusted after 3.5 years of school.

stevie wonder certainly *studied* harmony, just not in school. he listened
to records. That's what the best teachers will teach you anyway. My guitar
teacher in high school taught me *how to teach myself*. That's why U of
miami was, except for those few great classes that were worth the 3.5 years
of hanging around, an excersize in networking for future gigs.

for me, theory was to be learned so it could be immediately forgotten. I
could give a 3 hour lecture at the university level on modal harmony and
composition but if I thought about that shiite when I actually wrote I'd be
F&^%cked. no feeling.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is...you can't teach creativity,
> individuality and ingenuity...all you can do is give someone the tools
> and rules.  

and teach that it's ok to break the rules?

> But at a certain point, it is really up to the individual
> to shape themselves.  Just because one can sit at a piano and pick out
> songs by ear...doesn't make them great as a songwriter or player.  It
> just means, they have good ear.  The idea of school is to accelerate
> ones process.  But in no way does that make them better than someone
> who is self taught, or skipped ear training class to get laid.

yes yes yes. getting laid can be a good education for music, fer sure...
especially if you're rhythmic in bed!
> 
> Making this comment to be more true, than anything that has been said.

which rhymes with laid, kind of.
> 
>> to me, music school is an oxymoron. If I had it do over, I'd stay in
>> NYC and
>> take private lessons and play gigs. I did enjoy my time at Miami and
>> the
>> school is excellent but I'm not sure it was the best way to go. I
>> learned
>> more from my high school guitar teacher than I did in music school,
>> but I'm
>> a freak of nature and that certainly is not the norm. Music school was
>> more
>> of a place to meet future co-workers. For me it should have been called
>> "music networking for future gigs school"...
> 
> Especially when dealing with Creative studies.  Leaving other studies
> like programming, medicine, law, etc. really necessary to have an
> academic approach.  Yet, I have talked to some programmers that said
> the same thing about education being rather "eh", when it came down to
> preparing them for the real world.  Most were already programming at
> age 12, so their teachers weren't giving them enough breathing space.
> Yet some the only reasons to go art school, is to learn proportions,
> life drawing, and few other semantics.  After that, go bye-bye...there
> really is no point in staying.

there's a point to staying in music school if you want to be a teacher. Or a
theorist. Or an orchestrator. to find your own voice on your instrument it
is unnecessary.
> 
> Secular study or practice is often to rigid for creativity.  If the
> individual receives it all in the right way, it can serve them as good
> tools.  But if the individual receives to much structural inhibitions,
> it could serve to diminish the quality that inherently already exists.
> Leonardo Da Vinci, was recognized as a young genius who painted better
> than his master, during his small stint as an apprentice at age 14.
> Lucky for him, his Master was brave enough to admit his student was
> superior to his own work.  Kind of what separates Vladamir Horwitz from
> the rest, despite the fact that he came from a strict regiment of "You
> play it like this, or no pudding with your meat".  One then, recognizes
> the need to be "you" at all times.

it's all about discipline and commitment in your craft no matter how you
slice it, school or no school. even Keith Richards has his own form of
discipline. Lemon Absolut.

teddybut

> I feel like I am talking to a wall with you. 

> Colin Miller

I'm sure if we met under different circumstances we would get 
along just fine. I get your point. whatever....

teddybut

ok.. I'll give this one more shot because you are obviously 
offended and defensive and I don't want you to be offended by my 
internet words since I have no reason to piss off my internet 
Logic using friends. I simply gave my opinion, which I still think 
is valid for me to have even if it is not yours.

> I have explained this again 
> and again. It's not about a resume. 

then why bring up your famous classmates which not everyone 
thinks are as great as you think they are? I will not opine on 
whether i think they are great or cookie cutter or not because it 
doesn't matter what i think about them and I'm glad you are 
proud of having been in school with them. different strokes, like i 
said before. I have many people I went to school with as well that 
are famous but i don't think that's the point of this conversation.

> People I was in class with are not a 
> resume (please don't make me repeat that yet again). 

you just said it twice, you must really be trying to convince 
yourself you are right. if it's not a resume then what is it? If you 
went to school with God or whoever your favorite musician in the 
world is it doesn't make the school better, does it? well, it might 
for that semester if you get to play with them. it makes the hang 
better for you for sure. and what about admitting the *posers* to 
your fine institution? The school knows they have no future in the 
music wolrd? Does the school want me to think it has integrity 
when they are just fooling non musicians into giving them money 
so they can give the talented people scholarships? I guess it's a 
business like any other and they do what they have to do to stay 
on top.... oh boy now I've done it

> My POINT is that these 
> people are not cookie cutter, 

 to you they are not. I have no opinion one way or another, I am 
just OPEN to other opinions besides yours

>thus disproving your point completely. I am 
> not offended in the least, 

yes, you've disproved my point alright... boy do i feel dumb 
(blatant sarcasm) you really won the debate on whether berklee 
is good or not... I didn't say it was bad at any point by the way, just 
FELT like a FACTORY to ME, the retard. hahaha

>I just don't want your opinion to misguide 
> others because it is far from the truth (or lets say complete 
>truth as I 
> don't want to dictate what your experience was). 

yes Mr. Policeman, please don't arrest me for my opinion. I have 
this friend John ashcroft who you might want to meet.

>And thus my examples which 
> you don't seem to get the point of, 

i get them fully over and over. it is my point you fail to 
acknowledge my humble internet friend

>prove that. I too am living proof as 
> well. You could say 'when I was there for two weeks, I didn't 
have a good 
> experience because....'. 

true, because it felt like a factory TO ME, but not Colin Miller... ok? 
good enough for ya?

> But no, you said it along the lines of 'If you 
> like the factory thing and don't want a well rounded education'.

that's how I talk, I live in NYC pal, get used to it., I have no reason 
to apologize for being direct..  is there a reason I should beat 
around the bush for you?

 > I don't 
> even think your intent is bad or malicious

it's not, you're right... *sigh* I'm a very lovable charachter. come to 
my house, I'll make you a nice Mozarella sandwich and teach you 
some new chords

>But you are probably also unaware that you are in essence 
> calling me a poser, a cookie-cutter, etc, etc and come off with a 
snobby 
> attitude (Probably not your intent, but all the same... ). 

I never said that, don't be paranoid! jeez. besides, you are the 
one who brought the phrase cookie cutter to the table.

> You're calling 
> BT, Paul Cole, people like that the same thing. Now if Britney 
Spears and 
> the like went there, I would probably commend your comments 
(little humor).

like I said before, to YOU your classmates are not cookie cutter. I 
am not saying that I think they are, I am just saying they must be 
to someone out there.

likewise, I'm sure there are people who think britanny is the real 
deal. I'm not saying I think that but there must be someone who 
can play who likes her... oh ya! Mike Brecker told my friend he 
liked her first record! a true story... go figure... stay open : ) go 
with it... relax.... good... it's really true. didn't he go to Berklee at 
some point?

>So if you 
> had this kind of experience (as did everyone I went with) would 
you not be 
> somewhat taken back by someone who went there for two 
weeks and said it was 
> a factory?

no, not at all. I would say, "oh, dude, you missed out on a good 
place even though there were lots of people who shouldn't have 
been there... it got better later. Nick Batzdorf, good example.

try to stay open Colin, it's good for your heart

teddybut

I would like to RE-DEFINE what I am trying to articulate...to both of 
you.  Teddybut and Colin.  Cause I think, in some ways ya both missed 
the point and yet, we are in agreement in other things.  But still...

The Poser
Now, teddybut, you are now in this moment starting to define what you 
mean by Poser.  To you this means some person who is more interested in 
image, than in providing the audience strong material of self 
expression.  This was no defined early on.  So, this finally being 
said, I was trying to point out, that there are musicians who are 
un-sckooled who offered a lot in history.  But there were also the 
sckooled musicians that offered a lot to history as well.  I think I 
expressed that clearly enough.  BUT...

To me, a *Poser* can be *anybody*...for instance.  If one is sckooled, 
but their material is derivative.  Then for me, this is a poser.  
Because they are in Emulation of, and not the creation of.  Yet this 
can be true for anyone...sckooled or un-sckooled.  Leaving the 
imagination of the individual being the most important tool of the 
artist to convey the content.

If one looks at Jimi Hendrix today.  One might think, by your 
standards, as Jimi passed you by on the street or in the halls 
UofMaimi, "Huh, a Poser".  But Jimi was no Poser.  If you say he was, I 
am going to come over your house, tie you up, and play Nsync videos 
over and over, with eyes pried open, force feeding a mixture of Tang, 
cherry Pepsi, cotton candy and Twinkies.  You will changed man, forever 
and have real bad case of heartburn.

But no less, Jimi Hendrix was extremely talented and yet eccentric with 
with how he looked.  Janis Joplin, George Clinton, PFunk, Bootsy 
Collins, Elvis Presely, Peter Gabriel, David Bowie and slew of others 
that reined throughout history, writing great music and dressing to the 
nines.  Poser...I don't think so, these people carry their own weight 
in one form or another.  Looks can be deceiving...we then remember the 
movie "Shine"?  Yet, it is true about about "all flash, but no guts".  
But one can't say that about "Earth, Wind and Fire".  All Flash and all 
Glory there.

Yet, we also have the sckooled musicians, that to me, they may be 
talented people and write okay music.  But, just okay, not great...just 
"oh hum, that's nice...next!".  Yet we have un-sckooled that are 
exactly the same.  Just okay, nothing so special.  Just snoring through 
either CD like a buzz saw.

Yet, I can't help but luv Simon from that American Popstar...Yah, I 
watched on like two times.  And, that Simon guy just railed people...I 
was like, yeah...harsh but true...next!  None the less, as much as I 
liked him, I couldn't BARE to watch it anymore.  Just too painful.  But 
I luved his "burn, baby, burn" approach.  Funny, I think that most 
would love to buy Clips of Simon DVD.

Never the less, there are the success' of the sckooled musician's as 
well, that do make it into the collection of music.  Unique individuals 
that come across from speaker to the soul.  When I listen to 
music...Goose bumps are a must!  I need to feel chemistry as the 
listener.  Yet it isn't their status quo of education, or their 
reputation, it was their ability to connect with me or move me in the 
ethereal sense.  "Wow, who the f*ck is the that?"  Or, "Damn, I luv 
this!  Let's listen to this again."  But even, "hmmm, I am not sure 
about this." is good too.  Because that means, I stepped into unknown 
territory.  The result is not yet defined.

But I also would like to note that, just because someone gets some 
private lessons in ear training, theory and harmony.  Doesn't mean that 
they received a full education in music.  But, these are mere 
semantics, that one can learn as they go.  So yeah, a FULL education is 
necessary for some things, but not always necessary in everything that 
is creative.

So for me, the Poser is not defined by what they wear or don't wear.  
Since, what one wears or how they look is obviously inconclusive to how 
talented they are.  Roy Orbison, Buddy Holly, and Elvis Costello, are 
all prime example of Bill Gates playing rock and roll.  No for me it is 
"how important is the material to me".  That being said, some sckooled 
individual fail to drive through the emotional barrier or peak my 
interests.  Having no Passion, empty and void of any soul.  Yet, this 
happen in both concepts of the sckooled and un-sckooled musicians.

Or like when one picks up an excellent fine ass babe, wearing all that 
"let's get ta some funky monkey luv".  Yet, finally when you're in bed, 
she's a freakin' stiff.  All about standard missionary, no 69, no puff 
n stuff.  You know, just a mortician's wet dream.  Poser comes to mind 
in moments like these...of course I am purely speaking from a guys 
perspective on this.

Or how about those people who like "keep trying to play like Jaco".  I 
mean, let's be serious here.  Jaco was one of kind...that is it.  Now a 
lot of these players may be good, but they need to find themselves, 
instead of trying to be something, that they can't possibly be.  Trying 
to be, and Being are still two totally different things and have 
nothing to do with education or lack there of.

That being said...what we can all agree on is, "It doesn't matter where 
you were educated...Music has to come from the gut."  Tap, tap, 
tap...now everrry one, once again, wit feeeeeling this time.

Britney Spears is a poser.  Paula Cole is not.  But I don't really like 
either of them.  But I can respect Paula Cole for not lip syncing and 
dancing around like a hip hop clown.  Yet I am sure that Paula will 
have a nice long career in music.  Where as Britney could eventually 
end up on street corner playing "Blowing for Crack".

For me, it is about the quality of the music, the quality of the 
musician's work...not their degree or lack there of.  As Don Juan said 
to Carlos Castaneda, when Carlos handed Don Juan his second book that 
was just published.  Don Juan looked at the cover and skimmed through 
the pages.  Then said "that's nice, very nice indeed...but here, you 
keep it, because you know what people do with paper in Mexico."

Again, I say this:
"One then, recognizes the need to be "you" at all times."

Peace,
Alexis

> Again, I say this:
> "One then, recognizes the need to be "you" at all times."


      Thats the ONLY thing you can do better than ANYONE else at all times
in any condition .
      BTW which uni did John Lee Hooker go to .
        Of course the people that are best at being themselves are the
ranting raving steaming megalomaniacs who have never needed to learn the
mantra " oh you mean me "

voodoo chillun........
                                                  Paul

Alexis Aiosa <wirehead1@a...> wrote:
> Now, teddybut, you are now in this moment starting to define 
>what you mean by Poser.  To you this means some person 
>who is more interested in image, than in providing the 
>audience strong material of self expression.  This was no 
>defined early on.  So, this finally being said, I was trying to point 
>out, that there are musicians who are 
> un-sckooled who offered a lot in history.  But there were also 
>the sckooled musicians that offered a lot to history as well.  I 
>think I expressed that clearly enough.  BUT...
> 
> To me, a *Poser* can be *anybody*...for instance.  If one is 
>sckooled, but their material is derivative.  Then for me, this is a 
>poser. Because they are in Emulation of, and not the creation 
>of.  Yet this can be true for anyone...sckooled or un-sckooled.  
>Leaving the imagination of the individual being the most 
>important tool of the artist to convey the content.
> 
> If one looks at Jimi Hendrix today.  One might think, by your 
> standards, as Jimi passed you by on the street or in the halls 
> UofMaimi, "Huh, a Poser".  But Jimi was no Poser.  If you say 
>he was, I  am going to come over your house, tie you up, and 
>play Nsync videos over and over, with eyes pried open, force 
>feeding a mixture of Tang, cherry Pepsi, cotton candy and 
>Twinkies.  You will changed man, forever 
> and have real bad case of heartburn.

I said that for people in school a poser is some one who is a 
*non musician* (you only read the part about clothing) who might 
happen to wear something to pretend they are. My beef was that 
Berklee admits anybody who owns an instrument as long as 
they have cash, which for me does not integrity for the school 
make.  However, I recognize their need to do this to finance the 
non-poser's scholarships. They are not a University for normal 
people and have to make $ so I can't blame them but it made the 
place unpleasant for me. U of Miami, not having to worry about 
$so much because of the fact that it is a branch of a normal 
people's university, was able to be much more selective about 
who they admit, thus ensuring a higher level from the first 
semester. I know you don't care about that, but that was the 
original discussion.

I have been listening to jimi since I was 3, so no need to come 
over and do your clockwork orange scenario on me, I am a 
devotee but not a copier. So we agree. I was trying to say that 
people in school define poser slightly differently than you.

I am not against flashy clothes, I wear them myself at 
performances. As long as the musician is for real as a musician 
I don't care what they wear.

> Or like when one picks up an excellent fine ass babe, wearing 
>all that  "let's get ta some funky monkey luv".  Yet, finally when 
>you're in bed, she's a freakin' stiff.  All about standard 
>missionary, no 69, no puff  n stuff.  You know, just a mortician's 
>wet dream.  Poser comes to mind in moments like these...of 
>course I am purely speaking from a guys 
> perspective on this.

i thought you were a woman based on your name, oops.

> Britney Spears is a poser.  Paula Cole is not.  But I don't really 
>like either of them.  But I can respect Paula Cole for not lip 
>syncing and dancing around like a hip hop clown.  Yet I am 
>sure that Paula will have a nice long career in music.  Where as 
>Britney could eventually end up on street corner playing 
>"Blowing for Crack".

brittany will probably end up in the movies. brittany's a poser but i 
think she's worked really hard at her shallow craft even though i 
can't stand her. I respect hard work, I just wish she'd put towards 
something she's good at. Paula's a great performer and certainly 
not a poser in any way shape or form. I think she's a great 
writer/musician but I'm not a fan.
> 
> For me, it is about the quality of the music, the quality of the 
> musician's work...not their degree or lack there of.  

of course, I never asserted that a dergree was important. I didn't 
graduate Miami because I  got sick of the politics so if I based 
my opinion of musicians on their degree I would hate myself.

>As Don Juan said 
> to Carlos Castaneda, when Carlos handed Don Juan his 
>second book that  was just published.  Don Juan looked at the 
>cover and skimmed through the pages.  Then said "that's nice, 
>very nice indeed...but here, you keep it, because you know what 
>people do with paper in Mexico."

nice story thanks. I've always thought that a degree is toilet paper 
unless you need it to get the gig you want, like teaching.
> 
> Again, I say this:
> "One then, recognizes the need to be "you" at all times."

agree completely

teddybut who gets all points but is somewhat misunderstood

At 06:28 AM 10/5/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>you just said it twice, you must really be trying to convince
>yourself you are right. if it's not a resume then what is it?


You know what, I am done explaining it. If it hasn't been clear, it never 
will be. Every time I explain it you come back with the same response to it 
so there would be no point in me saying it again and again. I am done with 
the thread, have clearly pointed out that it is not a factory oriented 
school by giving clear examples and testimony. I am sorry you don't 
understand it. I am stopped reading after this paragraph because it's just 
not worth it to me anymore. And yes I am sure that in person we would get 
along just fine, I don't judge anyone by one simple point of disagreement, 
and that is all this is.


Colin Miller

OK, I think I found a good way to explain my point of examples which you 
don't seem to be following me on:

I could list hundreds of people I went to school with who are good examples 
that it is not a factory. But since no one on this list would ever know who 
they are (thus having no point of reference) it would be meaningless. But 
if I list someone like BT (Who's music I cannot stand) people can listen to 
his work and say 'ah yes, that definitely is someone who marches to his won 
drummer and who's music and playing aren't cookie-cutter (or factory 
like)'. Does this make things more clear? I don't like any of the people I 
listed (except Abe) so it certainly isn't an issue of me thinking they are 
great. But do you now understand that this isn't a bragging issue? If not, 
I give up, but this should clarify it even more than before. OK, I'm 
finished, not reading any more replies to this thread. :-)

Colin Miller

--- In logic-ot@y..., Colin Miller <snoopy@m...> wrote:
> OK, I think I found a good way to explain my point of examples 
which you 
> don't seem to be following me on:
> 
> I could list hundreds of people I went to school with who are 
good examples 
> that it is not a factory. But since no one on this list would ever 
know who 
> they are (thus having no point of reference) it would be 
meaningless. But 
> if I list someone like BT (Who's music I cannot stand) people 
can listen to 
> his work and say 'ah yes, that definitely is someone who 
marches to his won 
> drummer and who's music and playing aren't cookie-cutter (or 
factory 
> like)'. Does this make things more clear? I don't like any of the 
people I 
> listed (except Abe) so it certainly isn't an issue of me thinking 
they are 
> great. But do you now understand that this isn't a bragging 
issue? If not, 
> I give up, but this should clarify it even more than before. OK, 
I'm 
> finished, not reading any more replies to this thread. :-)
> 
> Colin Miller

ok, then don't read this:

you are the one who has been missing my point all along and 
I'm glad you're done with the conversation. I've understood that 
you weren't bragging about yourself from the first, I am well 
aware you were trying to convince me that Berklee is not a 
factory, which I never said it was. I clearly said it felt LIKE a factory 
to ME, not that it always turns out bad musicians or anything 
even close to that.. You continue to fail to see MY point that I am 
only voicing my opinion and experience and I will not let you 
police me for that.

thanks for ending it,
teddybut

--- In logic-ot@y..., Colin Miller <snoopy@m...> wrote:
> At 06:28 AM 10/5/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >you just said it twice, you must really be trying to convince
> >yourself you are right. if it's not a resume then what is it?
> 
I meant a resume for the school, not for you!

> You know what, I am done explaining it. If it hasn't been clear, it 
never 
> will be. Every time I explain it you come back with the same 
response to it 
> so there would be no point in me saying it again and again. I 
am done with 
> the thread, have clearly pointed out that it is not a factory 
oriented 
> school by giving clear examples and testimony. 

again, your opinion is valid for you and mine is for me. what the 
heck is the problem with that?

>I am sorry you don't 
> understand it. 

I understand fine. I'm sorry you took my opinion as the gospel.

>I am stopped reading after this paragraph because it's just 
> not worth it to me anymore. 

well that's pretty rude! if you want to talk about it, talk about it, 
don't be a *ussy... is it really that upsetting to read that someone 
had a bad experience at your school? Who cares?

>And yes I am sure that in person we would get 
> along just fine, I don't judge anyone by one simple point of 
disagreement, 
> and that is all this is.

me neither and thanks for that bit of gentlemanliness.

teddybut

colin,
>But since no one on this list would ever know who 
>they are (thus having no point of reference) it would be meaningless. But
>if I list someone like BT (Who's music I cannot stand) people can listen
>to 
>his work and say 'ah yes, that definitely is someone who marches to his
>won 
>drummer and who's music and playing aren't cookie-cutter (or factory 
>like)'. 

sorry.
that concept (in itself) is the tip of a somewhat uneducated media-driven 
misconception-iceberg, imo.....

bt:
crafty? yes.
high-quality concentration of work? definitely.
marching to his own drummer, (which ---hazarding a guess, here--- might mean 
something like 'innovatively creative', in your world)?
i don't think that's where i'd place his best work, no..... it seems 
derivative, to me.

best,
dt / splattercell

I just reread all these posts because I feel something went terribly wrong.
I never intended to hurt anyone's feelings, yet through the dialogue and
having my opinion twisted into some kind of important thing, we've gone into
a vicious cycle that I am going to break right now. everyone's made their
point.

It looks to me that Colin, you got offended by how strongly I voiced my
opinion of your school. I wasn't out to offend anyone when I said that, but
became offended myself when you tried to police me. all the other stuff is
long winded malarky.

can we all be friends again now and stop arguing about mundane things?

thank you
teddybut

> marching to his own drummer, (which ---hazarding a guess, 
here--- might mean 
> something like 'innovatively creative', in your world)?
> i don't think that's where i'd place his best work, no..... it seems 
> derivative, to me.
> 
> best,
> dt / splattercell

you see, everyone thinks differently. opinions are just that Colin.

thanks dt

In a message dated 10/6/2002 2:50:42 PM, teddybut@... writes:

>you see, everyone thinks differently. opinions are just that Colin.
>thanks dt
yer welx.
fwiw:
i went to berklee, way back when; i had an 'interesting' time, there..... 
didn't enjoy it so much, though.
i did 2 semesters in one, and promptly left when invited to join an 
intriguing band.

some of my classmates went on to become (great) recognised players/writers; 
others did not.

i can neither blame nor credit berklee for what's become of my own career.

i've since 'taught' in a few different places --- a coupla master classes at 
CalArts, a short stint at Rosskilde (DK), and am currently teaching one 
student (this semester) at the New School, NYC.
i've tried to display both the more 'ineffable' and more practicable 
music-career things in my bout w/'teaching', as these were the germane 
qualities that my best teachers seem always to impart to me.

to quote mark hollis:
'life's what ya make it.....'

best,
dt / splattercell