The Logic Off Topic list

Hendrik
You are obviously a very clever and educated fellow; and, your long 
letter seems very convincing. However, under the thin veneer of 
intellectualism is a basic dishonesty. You have misrepresented what you 
have said and what others have said. 

You didn't simply make a few comments about Bush. You called Americans 
"primitive" and "cowboys" and mocked our military, and spoke as if 
terrible civilian deaths have already occurred in advance. Rather than 
being childish innocent or god like, your comments have been sarcastic 
and insulting in a flippant smart ass way. 

I, and many others, basically agree with your point that innocents should 
not be killed. There are many in the US who feel the same. Why is it, 
that you feel you, and Europeans in general are somehow smarter or more 
moral than everyone in the United States? We are a diverse group, and I 
already gave several examples of the high level of morality shown in war 
time (such as not bombing the downed the stealth figher plane in 
Yugoslavia). Why don't you wait for something to actually happen before 
you complain about it, and second, have some trust that everyone in the 
US is not a cowboy or war mongerer.

You also misrepresent what some of us say, when you are not calling us 
narrow minded. No one ever said the US is right all the time about 
everything. I, and others, have pointed out that blunders have been made. 
We've also pointed out, that the US has taken on the role of policing the 
entire world, and maintaining stability through out the world, and its 
easy to sit back and criticize as you do, while your country reaps the 
benefits but doesn't take the risks. And those in the world who want to 
blame the US for all the ills of the world, need to re-evaluate their 
thinking too, to be a bit more realistic. Is the US really the worst 
country of the world? Is that an example of clever European thinking to 
simplify all of the complex issues in the world down to "the US is wrong 
about everything". Come on, I expect a little more intelligent attitude 
from you, Hendrik.

I think, you, although intelligent, have fallen into a mental trap of 
following the anti-American bandwagon that seems to be playing in Europe. 
This is the current fashion and you have mindlessly fallen into its 
grasps. If you truly care about civilian deaths, why don't you read about 
what is going on in Chechya right now! There are thousands of deaths, and 
disappearences. Similary, China is suppressing a Moslem minority known as 
the Uigars. Where is your Western Eurpeon morality when it comes to these 
innocent people being suppressed? Well, its no longer en vogue to hate 
Russia and China. After so many years of the US providing a security 
blanket over Europe, now that the USSR is no more, its now chic to hate 
the US. 

I also think you show poor taste. Even if all you say is correct and 
good. Right after 6,500 of our civilians have been killed is not the time 
to attack us. The US is in a state of shock. Give it a rest. Have some 
European class and dignity. You may see the American army as storm 
troopers, but we see them as our friends and neighbors who are risking 
their lives for our protection. I find it offensive that as they risk 
their lives, you should mock them and blame them for imaginery crimes 
that never occured. Please wait, then you can continue with your tirades.



Greg

Thoughts from the mind of GAmoore@..., 9/26/01:

>You are obviously a very clever and educated fellow;

Yes I am.

>and, your long letter seems very convincing. However, under the thin veneer of
>intellectualism is a basic dishonesty. You have misrepresented what 
>you have said and what others have said.

Oh really, did I?  Where?  Let's see about who's misrepresenting who:

>You didn't simply make a few comments about Bush. You called Americans
>"primitive" and "cowboys"

I used words to that effect to describe Bush's way of talking a week 
ago.   Since when is "Bush = Americans" a true proposition?

>and mocked our military,

Did I?  Where?  The only remark I can think of, was the somewhat 
sarcastic one in which I said your heroes could come over to Europe 
to educate us after the wars were over.  Which was a reaction to a 
rather silly and offensive post by yourself ("How can you educate 
billions who are misinformed?").  Maybe I shouldn't have been 
sarcastic, but after all the bizarre insults, misquotations and 
unfounded and unproven allegations directed at me, I think one 
slightly sarcastic remark still is not such a bad score.

>and spoke as if terrible civilian deaths have already occurred in advance.

I said that civilians were fleeing their homes.  Just a tad 
different, don't you think.

Etc, etc.

Now who misprespresent what here?  This is really getting to my 
nerves.  I try to remain polite and reasonable, but these false and 
bizarre accusations coming "out of the blue" really start to annoy me.

I asked you (and others) several times to quote me, saying things 
like "all Americans are idiots", or "the US military sucks", or "the 
US only did wrong in the world", or whatever else I'm being accused 
of having said.
None has provided even a single quotation (and then please a 
quotation within its original context), proving their point.  What am 
I to make of that?  Do some out there suffer from a massive 
reading-disorder, or what?

>Why don't you wait for something to actually happen before you 
>complain about it,

Because then it already has happened, and it's too late.

>and second, have some trust that everyone in the US is not a cowboy 
>or war mongerer.

I never said I thought otherwise.  Again, please quote me saying differently.

>And those in the world who want to blame the US for all the ills of 
>the world, need to re-evaluate their thinking too, to be a bit more 
>realistic.

Of course.  Did I ever anywhere say the US is to blame for all the 
ills of the world?

>Is the US really the worst country of the world?

Did I say it is?

>Is that an example of clever European thinking to
>simplify all of the complex issues in the world down to "the US is wrong
>about everything". Come on, I expect a little more intelligent attitude
>from you, Hendrik.

Where did I say the Us is wrong about everything?

I expect a little more intelligent reading from you, GA.

>I think, you, although intelligent, have fallen into a mental trap of
>following the anti-American bandwagon that seems to be playing in Europe.

Bollocks.  I am as critical to my own country and culture as I am to 
the American's.  I never said otherwise.  However, being critical 
towards the US seems to be a capital offence nowadays.

>I also think you show poor taste. Even if all you say is correct and
>good. Right after 6,500 of our civilians have been killed is not the time
>to attack us.

If I had actually 'attacked' the US, if I had indeed called all 
Americans idiots and their army a bunch of morons, and their culture 
despicable, and the entire nation the source of all evil in the 
world... yes, then that would have been very poor taste indeed.

However, for some reason I haven't said _any_ of these things, ever.

As I said before: the fact that you (and others) keep accusing me of 
things I never anywhere ever said is getting just a tad annoying (and 
bizarre).  If I said completey moronic things, I'd be the very 
_first_ to apologize.  However, I must admit that some postings have 
been tempting, and on occasion I've felt the impulse to write 
completely moronic things in response indeed...  Temptation is a test 
for the soul, I suppose...


cheers,
HJ
-- 
     Hendrik Jan Veenstra
     email: mailto:h@...
     www:   http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

> We've also pointed out, that the US has taken on the role of policing the
> entire world, and maintaining stability through out the world,

Perhaps this is what is pissing so many people off world-wide.

> And those in the world who want to
> blame the US for all the ills of the world, need to re-evaluate their
> thinking too, to be a bit more realistic.

Many, many of the worlds ills have been brewing since before America existed
as a nation. America is seen to be interfering for its own gains, that is
the reality.

> have fallen into a mental trap of
> following the anti-American bandwagon that seems to be playing in Europe.

You are very wrong sir. People here were/are shocked, frightened and
outraged by the recent events, and now a feeling of sympathy and support
prevails. This attack happened on mainland America not in Europe though. You
can see the difference? Was it just a matter of time before something like
this happened?

> Well, its no longer en vogue to hate
> Russia and China. After so many years of the US providing a security
> blanket over Europe, now that the USSR is no more, its now chic to hate
> the US.

Rubbish. What you are saying is that dumb European people hated (European)
Russia until it no longer was a threat, and now with no-one else around they
start to hate America? You would like to think it is that way. The "security
blanket" also served to protect America's interests worldwide. Stable world
= good markets and good business. Personally i dont have a problem with this
equation at all, its just condescending to presume that we'd believe that
America would get involved in a war just to save xy's arse and get nothing
back in return.

> I also think you show poor taste. Even if all you say is correct and
> good. Right after 6,500 of our civilians have been killed is not the time
> to attack us.

A substantial percentage of victims were European. Like i said - EVERYONE
here is touched and upset by this massacre. To give a different
perspective - this recent atrocity took more British lives in one go than
any one IRA bomb. Even after decades of war the IRA never took out so many
Brits in one go.

Best regards,
Adam P