The Logic Off Topic list

In a message dated 10/10/01 2:24:35 AM, saschafranck@... writes:

>> >I'm not even sure that USA "helps" more than any other country. I
>> >read somewhere that in proportion of the revenue per capita, Belgium
>> >"donates" 4 times more, and Norway 10 times more - then again, these
>> >figures have no real meaning.
>
><GAmoore@...> answere:
>> Funny but we don't seem to see many Belgium or Norwegian troops in Bosnia,
>in
>> Kuwait, in Vietnam, in Korea, even in WWII. Are there any "Black Granite
>> Walls" with thousands of names of dead young men from their country for
>> various wars they didn't start and didn't want to be in?

Sasha responded :
>So, what are you going to say with that?
>In the end, this seems pretty clever to me, no?
>Apart from WWII (which btw wasn't necessary to even go that far if people
>all over the world - of course especially in german - hadn't be as stupid
>as
>to believe that Hitler dumbfuck), what kind of help was that?
>Thumbs up for all the Norwegians for having a relatively well prospering
>country, a REAL great health and social structure and no soldiers being
>involved in any kinda stupid war!

If everyone were pacifist like the Norwegians and Swedes (as a whole, not to 
discount various brave individuals), then Hitler would have taken over 
Europe. Even the French didn't put up much of a fight. It was the scrappy 
Brits which held the line, and the later the US and Canada which made it 
possible for Western Europe to prosper and have the security it now enjoys. 
In the same way, if not for the US and England and a dozen other countries to 
smaller extents,  Korea would have been unified under communist control in 
1950. Yugoslavia would be ethnically cleansed in the 1990's, Iraq would now 
control Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and 1/4 of the worlds oil. And Europe would 
be speaking  Russian had the US not provided the backbone to Nato for all 
these decades as you grew up in a safe Europe.

Do you see what is wrong with your pacifist-supporting statement? As our 
first president, George Washington said, (and the ancient Greeks also said), 
if you want peace, you must prepare for war. Otherwise the weak will always 
be at the mercy of the strong and ruthless.

The US in particular, and to a lesser extent England, Canada, Australia and 
others have paid the price - not only in money but in the deaths of their 
young men (55,000 of my generation in Vietnam, 30,000 in Korea, 300,000 in 
WWII, etc)- to make the world how it is today. Do you think we enjoy seeing 
our people killed? I don't say its always right - especially in hindsight - 
but these wars have not been wars of conquest - they have been in defense of 
freedom and based on principle - not greed.

Of course, there are many things to argue about these matters, but I am 
concerned not only about the complete lack of gratitude, but the open 
hostility toward the US on the basis of these incorrect revisionist views of 
the past.

At 14:14 -0400 10/10/01, GAmoore@... wrote:
>The US in particular, and to a lesser extent England, Canada, Australia and
>others have paid the price - not only in money but in the deaths of their
>young men (55,000 of my generation in Vietnam, 30,000 in Korea, 300,000 in
>WWII, etc)- to make the world how it is today

Thank you very much America, especially considering how the world is 
today :-(((

Seriously... A country declares war for expanding or protecting its 
economic power, the rest is propaganda. You should read Kool Musick's 
post more attentively. All the refutations to your fairytales are 
there, in a brilliant synthesis.

Now I'm glad I grew up listening to jazz rather than oberbayern 
music, but this is another matter