The Logic Off Topic list

Hi David,

I haven't really been able to follow this lengthy thread, which started after the tragedy of September 11th. It is this last
contribution of yours that came as a bit of a shock to me. Because, whatever most of the US critics on this list said, we don't
all feel like that. In fact, few people in Europe hate America. Most people like America, but it's difficult for some to admit
to it. Amongst left-wing intellectuals and the educated 'classes' it has been a must for many years to criticise the US for its
'cowboy' mentality and the way this is supposed to have an influence on everything America does. Unfortunately, a lot of these
people don't know  Americans any more than fleetingly; much they know about the States comes from Hollywood films, TV series and
CNN news reports from the Gulf War. Isn't it funny then, how Europe is influenced by the American way of life? Many aspects of
American life have been happily taken on - and mixed with - Europeanisms over the years, and the American-'haters' refuse to be
aware of it.

The truth of the matter is - we all laugh at each other's idiosyncracies and character traits, and the criticism levelled at
each other has a quality of friendly rivalry, like between siblings or friends, even if it often sounds more serious than that.
European societies are distinctly different to American society in that the latter is relatively free of historically inherited
burdens, regional chauvinism and nationalistic jealousy. Europeans tend to be much more cynical, while Americans may come across
to us as being 'naive'. On the other hand, Europe, for historical reasons again, is more open-minded, and tolerant in terms of
ideologies. Europeans seem to be better at sorting out problems quietly. I believe (and I have first-hand experience of
societies on both sides of the pond) that this is mainly the cause for any friction between Americans and Europeans. Some
Europeans are also a bit scared of being bullied or patronised by the US. Perhaps these people should be somewhat more confident
about themselves.

Well, David, don't take these discussions to heart. If you came to visit Britain, Spain, Germany, Italy, etc., you would love
it, including the people. They might discuss these things with you in the pub, because this is what they do. It's not meant as
offensively as it sounds!

The real haters of Americans you will not find here in Europe; they are currently taking shelter somewhere in the mountains of
Afghanistan, planning their next act of terrorism against Americans, Britains, Germans, French or Australians.

Cheers,

Recky

david@... wrote:

>     I've been standing back reading all these true feelings and
> comments from all the european members here have, and I want to say
> how it has affected me. I am American, I was born here, and have never
> been fortunate enough to be able to travel outside of this country.
> Truly I will admit my ignorance on many levels about world affairs,
> and what may or may not be truth about what has been said here on this
> list.
>
>     Until I joined these international lists, I never had the
> opportunity to discuss subjects with my fellow human beings from all
> over the world. I'm just a regular guy with feelings just like anyone,
> I care about the hurt and pain that people all over the world
> experience, and often cry over something that I hear about that makes
> me wonder what it must be like for those people who are having to live
> through some awlful life that has come their way. The church that I
> attend has for years spent millions going to other countries to try
> and help the unfortunate, the poor, and the children of the poor.
> Sure, I agree, the in many of these instances, we hope for
> Christianity to spread there, but I don't really care about that so
> much, if they already have a faith that is working for them, any faith
> of love is good for me. I wish I knew how to do more for all the
> peoples that are in pain in the world, but I can't, all I can do is
> hurt for them in my own way.
>
>    I'm not alone in these feelings here in America. Most of us here
> are just regular human beings, and if we are wasting your planet, we
> didn't know that. We all live in the means that we can afford, and
> what we grew up with. I, personally, can't afford to be wasteful. If
> running my air conditioner when it's hot, or running the heat when
> it's cold, then I am wasteful, I have to pay for it. When I run out of
> gas in my car, I have to go get gas for it, if that wasteful, I'm
> guilty to that too.
>
>    I am always worried about the environment, what is happening to it
> because of industry, and all the polutants that they have caused. I'm
> always in favor of changes, and improvements that make for a cleaner,
> better world. As I said I'm ignorant to many of the things that the
> europeans have said about us. I thought (hoped) that we were all more
> friendly to each other than apparently we are. I truly do not have any
> ill feelings about you (europeans), like most of you apparently have
> for us. You guys aren't very friendly at all, IMO. I've been very hurt
> by what I read here by who I thought were merely fellow human beings.
> I had no idea how you really felt toward us.
>
>   From what I've read, I can see that there is much jealousy and
> hatred toward us. I don't know what I've done to deserve it, I never
> felt any hatred toward you. And if you would ask for any help, I and
> any friend of mine would want to help you. But you see that as a
> motive for trying to get something from you or take something from
> you. You can recite what you've read about us, and what you think to
> be true about us all you want, but you obviously don't know me, an
> American. All you know is what you have read or been told.
>
>   My feelings about all this is that, now I know what you really feel,
> you've made it clear, knowing the disgust that you have for us. That
> you think that WE are, and always have been the true problem of this
> world, and you are not. And that we never cared until now when it has
> come to our own soil, about the terrorisms that affects or will affect
> this whole planet, including where you live, sooner or later. That
> just isn't true at all, for me, and for anyone that I know.
>
>    I know that many of you almighty "wise" folks will say that I just
> can't stomach the truth. It's your truth, not mine. You don't know me,
> but still you don't like me, because I'm American. Well sooner or
> later, that's gonna cause me not to like you back. And for that I'm
> truly sorry.
>
> David Floyd
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

<david@...> wrote:

>   From what I've read, I can see that there is much jealousy and
> hatred toward us.

Hi David,

I don't know how much of this is pointed towards myself, but I would like to
make something clear:

I NEVER "hate" anybody personally without really knowing him/her.
Having said that it's simply impossible for me to "hate" any US citizens in
general.
So, when I'm talking about "you" or "the US" I speak about your government
rather than about any defined person/s. Whenever I'm talking about "us" or
"germany" it's exactly the same, I'm not talking about concrete persons.
This is also something what I wonder about... Because I thought that this
more "general" kind of speech was clear I'm really astonished that quite
some of you US folks seem to take it so personal though - whenever someone's
saying things such as "you stupid german fucks", do you think I really see
that as any kind of personal attack? Not at all! Sometimes (pretty often,
unfortunately) I even have to agree!

>   My feelings about all this is that, now I know what you really feel,
> you've made it clear, knowing the disgust that you have for us.

As said, this is really not the case.
I mean, how can I have any disgust for you (as a person)? In the past you've
allways been a friendly and helpful guy, even doing some nice music (of
course that's just a very small part of your personality so I can't tell if
you really are, but I couldn't tell anything else either).
I also don't "hate" you for being an american or whatever. I mean, I
wouldn't want to be hated myself too just because we have a stupid
government as well.

Anyways, let me try to make it a bit more clear why some of "us" (europeans
and the rest of the non-american world) might seem a bit annoyed about "the
US" sometimes.
(Please note: A lot of what I will say is 100% true for "our" countries as
well)

There's pretty much occasions where the US simply was like "going our own
way" rather than agreeing on international conventions. As I allready
mentioned in a previous post, the Kyoto agreement is a perfect example for
that. This is a fucken stupid thing! If we want to rescue what's left in
this ecological poor world we gotta do it all together.
There's a lot of things happening (especially) in the US simply driving me
mad. You (NO, not you as a person) simply don't seem to care about things
such as energy-per-head wastement. Of yourse that's basically a political
thing, but of course these things are part of people over there as well -
for example, usually they don't care too much about how many litres of fuel
their cars need (at least that was my experience when I've been over there).
Don't get me wrong, I'm as annoyed by the german government, having no
tempolimit as one of the few countries with a green party being part of our
government coalition is incredibly lame too.
There would be quite some other examples (such as the meat-per-head
consumption).
I'm not saying that people over here are any better per se, but at least
some folks learned something allready. Sure, we HAD to learn some things the
hard way. There's simply not enough resources over here (energy, land) so we
have to be pretty careful. But at least *some* people allready learned from
that.
A small personal example: I sold my car almost 3 years ago. Not that it
wasn't comfortable to own one, but I found that waste of energy disgusting.
I even made myself some special bagpack to carry a small amp, floor pedal
and guitar on my bike. For larger gigs of course we have to use a bus (from
the rental), sometimes I might also take a taxi to go there. Unfortunately
now I will have to buy a car again, but believe me, it will be a super low
powered one using less than 7 litres/100km.
Note: I LOVE to drive fast - but I just can't stand the things resulting out
of that.
Btw, I also buy ecologically proper food (even if it's damn expensive) and I
don't eat any meat at home (it's enough to have meat once or twice a week on
some gigs).
Sure, with these things I'm defenitely belonging to some minority over here
as well, but there's more and more people thinking the same.
Anyways, as a result of my personal style of living and looking towards
things, also as a result of being a true lover of nature, animals, clean
water and fresh air I really hate it to know there's a large amount of
people just not caring about these things at all. And unfortunately "the US"
is the top country in such aspects (I guess this can be proven easily by
some stats), at least in the western world.
Again, I am NOT talking about you (or anybody) as a person - I don't know
what you're eating or what kinda cars you drive - but there must be some
people in the US causing such statistics.

As said above, we (me included) had to learn this the hard way - but why in
the world can't "the US" just take that as a bad example and NOT follow us
the same way but rather be warned instead?

OK, I guess all this was started by the recent terrorist attacks and the US
reaction on them, I will try to comment on that as good as possible (my
political english unfortunately is pretty much limited).

I allready said so in some previous mail, as long as the US wasn't attacked
personally nobody cared about things. The Taliban ruled, the afghanian north
alliance was existing (no word of any US support for them), Bin Laden was
living too.
Nobody cared about them (well, a few underpowered help organisations did).
Well, the US cared - they supported the Mudjahiddin back then when
Afghanistan was fighting against the USSR.

This is just like the same as what happened back in the gulf war days.
Nobody cared about Saddam Hussein being the slaughter (that he still is) of
poor people (let alone the fact that he's been supported by western
countries during gulf war I). But of course, once he attacked Kuwait, it was
about the oil resources so someone had to strike him.
But instead of removing this monster from planet earth for all the times
(which, in his special case, REALLY would've meant a lot as there was no
person who could've followed him) you (well, in that case WE) only got
Kuwait back.
Yeah, I know "that was a human thing, we had to free the poor people in
Kuwait". Hrm, what about all the other places in the world where things like
that happened (Ruanda? Taiwan?)? Does any international alliance even care?
No, because it's not against any of their interests. Sure, Kosovo was "freed
up" but hey, a) was it really freed up? Not at all... and b) that was to
maintain some european stability - pretty important in terms of world
economics.

Now that the US has been attacked by terrorists it's happening again. But
again it's not a matter of "human rights" or whatever but it's just that the
US has been attacked personally and people want to see some revenge (at
least that's my feelings about it).
Sure, there's some helping good being throwed over Afghanistan, but
unfortunately that doesn't mean anything (according to some french help
organisation they interviewed in the news all those goodies are like a drop
of water on a hot stone).
Also there's no reason why attacking a country would help against
international terrorism at all. IMO things will only get worse.
In europe MANY people believe that a war against Afghanistan will bring you
anywhere, it's just our governments stupidly following some international
pseudo alliance which was caused by US statements such as "Hey, the world
has been attacked, everybody not following us is against us!".

Personally I might believe in limited strategic actions against terrorism
(such as infiltrating their organisations, hunting their leaders, looking
for their bank accounts), I also might agree that supporting the north
alliance in Afghanistan could be ok-ish (even if I doubt that because
Afghanistan per se is more like a bunch of tribes rather than one nation),
but I don't agree that ANY war will cure anything. Again the last gulf war
is a good example. Saddam is still surpressing his poor nation and he even
got enough biological and chemical weapons ready to kill the world
population 4 times (if not more). Back then a limited strike against Saddam
(combined with some support for their opposition) might have been the best
thing to do as well.

After all, as the result of things described above, some people over here
(including me) have an impression like:
If the US think they don't need to agree on international conventions, these
simply won't happen (Kyoto).
If the US however think now it's time to strike someone, everybody has to
follow them.
Of course, our governments just might be dumb enough to follow them all the
time, so maybe that's part of the problem as well.

And again, this has NOTHING to do with any personal things, when I've been
in the states I met many nice people and most of them welcomed me hartly and
all.

I'm sorry, but I can't explain things (especially all that political stuff)
any better.

Regards,
Sascha

In a message dated 10/9/01 8:30:08 AM, saschafranck@... writes:
>There's pretty much occasions where the US simply was like "going our own
>way" rather than agreeing on international conventions. As I allready
>mentioned in a previous post, the Kyoto agreement is a perfect example
>for
>that. This is a fucken stupid thing! If we want to rescue what's left in
>this ecological poor world we gotta do it all together.


A good example of misinformation. The treaty was not fair to the US - written 
an way to favor the Euros - and especially India and China. The fear was that 
in the end it would do little but hamper the US economically while not 
hampering others as much, and not stopping global warming. 

And when you said the "US" you really mean "the US's new president" who took 
office and has a right to re-evaluate things before they are signed. 
President Bush is indeed stupid and not effective in communicating, but that 
doesn't  mean the whole country is to blame, or that he is necessarily wrong 
in re-evaluating.

It is exactly your mindset to blame the US unfairly which is disturbing. This 
seems to be the 'thought of the moment' for Europeans, who feel they are very 
enlightened but actually are not very broad minded. If you are truly 
concerned over global warming you should be very afraid of the combined 
efforts of China and India - with populations about 7 tiimes that of the US 
with little to stop them from creating all the greenhouse gases they want as 
they rapidly industrialize.

If you were fairer, you would be marching in the streets over the death and 
destruction Russia delivers to Chechnya and China delivers to Tibet and its 
own citizens, and the repeated threats of war coming from China. Also, more 
European countries would commit troops to the Balkans - a problem in your own 
backyard, whch the US must bail you out of ... again ... because you refuse 
to act.


>There's a lot of things happening (especially) in the US simply driving
>me mad. 

Well you have a problem but its not the problem of the US, its the problem of 
being fixated on the US without the independence of thought to look at things 
objectively.

Germans in particular waste a lot of fuel on their autobahns, at least in the 
US we have strict speed limits.

> European "Friends"?
> 
> I've been standing back reading all these true feelings and
> comments from all the european members here have, and I want to say
> how it has affected me. I am American, I was born here, and have never
> been fortunate enough to be able to travel outside of this country.
> Truly I will admit my ignorance on many levels about world affairs,
> and what may or may not be truth about what has been said here on this
> list.

the problem here is that not all people living in the US think exactly like
their government, like in any other country. When we talk about "Americans"
are we talking about the American government or the people in general in
America? Are we indeed talking about "all" Americans? I don't think all the
people in Pakistan agree with what their government is doing right now, so
when I talk about Pakistan I try to discern between the people and their
government. I would never say, "Damn, I can't believe the Pakistanis are
letting the US use their airspace!", if you know what I mean...

I think cultural generalizing is something lots of Americans don't
understand since our country is filled with different people from all over
the world. We have a totally different set of cultural generalizations here,
mostly based on what fast food you like or what sneakers you wear. Europeans
however, love to generalize about their neighbors. I can't tell you how many
times I've been in a bar in some European country talking to a very lovely
and intelligent European who just can't stop talking about how that guy from
Switzerland (for example) is so this or that and that's "how all the Swiss
are"...

That said, I am American. I don't believe in everything (or hardly anything,
for that matter) my government does supposedly on my behalf. Heck, my
candidates never get even close to winning elections. I am pretty pissed
about how the media controls Americans and how our corporate society has
gone so far from morality and safe judgement. I think the bulk of Americans
are pretty innocent, very naive, relatively happy even without a lot of
money and very giving and good people. I also think that about Europeans,
Mexicans, Pakistanis and Koreans, by the way. Maybe I'm naive too...

anyway... don't let them hurt your feelings "david@...",
ignorance cuts both ways.

Teddy Kumpel
~
GO SEE 
http://www.teddybut.com and http://www.mp3.com/teddybut
~~Teddy Kumpel<teddybut@...>Kumpelstiltskin Music, Inc./EMI Music
Publishing~~
Burning Beagle Studios, Brooklyn, NY
~

At 3:17 AM -0400 10/10/01, Teddy Kumpel wrote:
>That said, I am American. I don't believe in everything (or hardly anything,
>for that matter) my government does supposedly on my behalf. Heck, my
>candidates never get even close to winning elections. I am pretty pissed
>about how the media controls Americans

But they clearly don't control *you*.

This reminds me of the statistics where most people rate their 
driving abilities as "above average".


>and how our corporate society has
>gone so far from morality and safe judgement.

Implying that there was a time when we had better judgement.

>I think the bulk of Americans
>are pretty innocent, very naive, relatively happy even without a lot of
>money and very giving and good people. I also think that about Europeans,
>Mexicans, Pakistanis and Koreans, by the way. Maybe I'm naive too...

I agree.  I think a measure of the times is how much importance 
people can place on simple luxuries like for example the next logic 
update, a new computer for their kid, or a little vacation with their 
girlfriend.  And I pray, in an agnostic kind of way, for a speedy 
return to the  petty  values that seemed so important two months ago.

BTW I recently read a fascinating book called MacAurthor American 
Ceasar .  It was amazing to me because of the fact that so much 
history could revolve around the will of a single individual.

I guess that's what we are seeing again.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

> >There's pretty much occasions where the US simply was like "going our own
> >way" rather than agreeing on international conventions. As I allready
> >mentioned in a previous post, the Kyoto agreement is a perfect example
> >for
> >that.
>
> A good example of misinformation. The treaty was not fair to the US - 
> written
> an way to favor the Euros - and especially India and China.


Please explain. What's not fair about it? (this is not meant in a 
negative way, I just want to learn from this discussion!!)

> And when you said the "US" you really mean "the US's new president" 
> who took
> office and has a right to re-evaluate things before they are signed.
> President Bush is indeed stupid and not effective in communicating, 
> but that
> doesn't  mean the whole country is to blame

Correct.

> , or that he is necessarily wrong
> in re-evaluating.

Incorrect as it had been signed already. :-/

> It is exactly your mindset to blame the US unfairly which is 
> disturbing. This
> seems to be the 'thought of the moment' for Europeans

Hehe, now you're generalising yourself as well. :-))
I don't think that way and I still have to meet the first European who 
thinks so.

> , who feel they are very
> enlightened but actually are not very broad minded. If you are truly
> concerned over global warming you should be very afraid of the combined
> efforts of China and India - with populations about 7 tiimes that of 
> the US
> with little to stop them from creating all the greenhouse gases they 
> want as
> they rapidly industrialize.

Think of it this way: we have gone through the stage of development 
(hundreds/tens of) years ago. Those countries now have to catch up. Once 
they've reached our development level, they'll be able to catch up with 
ecologic stuff too. The only way to stop the growth of their population 
is to make them develop their economy and industry as fast as possible.

> you would be marching in the streets over the death and
> destruction Russia delivers to Chechnya and China delivers to Tibet

I fully agree!!!! I'm a 100% against those things.

> Also, more
> European countries would commit troops to the Balkans - a problem in 
> your own
> backyard, whch the US must bail you out of ... again ... because you 
> refuse
> to act.

Now you're misinformed. ;-)
Actions were taken by UN but since UN doesn't have an army, they rely on 
NATO. Therefore, the usual NATO rules are what define how many forces of 
which country are used. Bush wants to get the US soldiers out of that 
area, but on the other hand, US authorities don't allow Europe to build 
their own army! :-/  They're very much opposed to that. Difficult 
political situation.

> without the independence of thought to look at things
> objectively.

Exactly what I noticed in some of your arguments too. :-)
The problem is it's difficult for either party to obtain objective 
information. To give you an idea: last year, I was doing some research 
on FSC's: foreign sales corporations. Europe had asked the Dispute 
Settelement Body of the World Trade Organisation to bring an end to the 
(in their opinion) hidden and illegal subsidies of the US for exporting 
companies. During my research, I really enjoyed reading the arguments by 
the European Commission and the US Department of Commerce, International 
Trade Administration. It was really funny how both parties were giving 
information from their point of view, very very subjective etc. The 
problem is that those statements are the ones that are printed in the 
papers, even when they're not correct.

> Germans in particular waste a lot of fuel on their autobahns, at least 
> in the
> US we have strict speed limits.

I'm not so sure an Audi at 180km/h uses more fuel than an average 
American car at 70miles/h.
I agree though that limiting the speed would definitely reduce fuel 
consumption!!!!!!

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

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