The Logic Off Topic list

Yoonchi writes :
>It is possible to realize certain goals without having to start a war or 
>without casualties. The only difference is IMO that it takes longer. And 
>for political reasons it isn't popular to have a campaign running for long 
>periods of time.

I wish that were so. Its great to think that way - unfortunately it 
simply doesn't work. The US has been embargoing Cuba for 40 years, and 
that bastard Castro is cheeky as ever. The UN has been economic 
sanctioning Iraq for 10 years, and that bastard is as cheeky as ever. 
Pacifists always think there is some easy way out of dealing with 
tyrants. Look at Chamberlains' "Peace in Our Time" comment in 1939 after 
talking to Hitler. Appeasement simply doesn't work. Ancient India was 
pacifist, and they were the easy prey of every army that marched through. 
Even the Inca Indians in Peru tried to appease the Spanish  by paying 
their gold ransom - and they killed the king and took over any way. Its 
the history of the world - and even the play ground. If you are weak 
others will bully you. The Japanese only attacked Pearl Harbor because 
they viewed the Ameicans as weak and without fighting spirit. The 
Russians and Chinese thought the same thing when starting the Korean war. 
And now Bin Laden says the same thing - that Americans are weak and 
easily defeated and not as strong as Russia who they defeated. It would 
be great if humans could evolve to a higher level of morality - however 
it only works if EVERYONE plays by the same rules.



>Result of the attacks: millions of refugees, a country devasted more 
>than it already was, animocity towards Islamic countries with ground 
>to breed extremists.

I would like to add to Dennis' response to these comments by mentioning 
that the country was already screwed up by the Russians and the Taliban. 
The US was and is the largest donor of food to the country.

It would be as if there were a house down the street from which some of 
the lowlifes came out occasionally murdered a few people in their sleep 
then snuck back into their crack house. And these murders keep occuring 
with greater frequency and with greater numbers of victims. Would the 
police wait patiently outside because the landlords refuse to allow the 
police to enter? Hell no. In fact it is a crime to harbor criminals and 
obstruct the police.

In an international setting, even if there is no extradition treaty, any 
normal human being understands that when you kill 6,000 people, there 
needs to be an accounting. We overlooked the 16 or so who died on the USS 
Cole, and the 12 Americans and 200 Africans that died in those embassy 
attacks. But this is too much. It must stop and there is no other choice. 
I don't think there is a country in the world, including some of our 
pacifist friends who would accept that kind of loss of life, and sit 
there waiting for the next attack without trying to prevent them. 

The Taliban could have surrendered Bin Laden to Saudi Arabia, to World 
Court in the Hague, etc. They did not, despite a little mixed signals 
when they started to get afraid. The fact of the matter is that they are 
part and parcel of El Quaeda. Some reports suggest that it is Bin Laden 
which props up the Taliban rather than the reverse.

Keep in mind also :
- the Taliban is one of the largest suppliers of drugs to Britain and 
other European countries
- the Taliban is viewed as extreme even by the other extreme groups. For 
example, the fact that a male doctor can not see a woman patient on one 
hand, and women may not work, even as doctors, makes for a catch-22 where 
women get to medical care - of course they're worthless anyways so who 
cares, right?
- their are current several aide workers, (2 American, 2 German, and I 
think 2 Aussies) being help for trial for the crime of having Christian 
propoganda/literature. And we all know what the Taliban did to the 
ancient Budhist statues carved into the mountain - blew them up against 
the wishes of the entire world.


In the end, like Panama, Bosnia, or Kosovo .... there will need to be 
sacrifices .... but eventually a peaceful, secure, and prosperous country 
will develop which is not ruled at the point of a gun and which is not a 
secure base of operations for world terror.


Mark Enduser :
>If you want to enter into a discussion with someone please stick to the
>facts instead of using fairy stories. These kind of  tactics are exactly
>what many in Europe find annoying about Americans and many in the Islamic
>world find annoying about the western world in general.

And what Americans find irritating about those two groups too. I've 
always felt some compassion for the plight of the Palestinians and felt 
secure that all Euros were our friends. Its only through some of these 
recent negative comments ignoring many historical facts on this list, 
that I've felt the need to review modern history. However, when a plane 
crashes into Riyadh, Cairo, Bonn, or Amsterdam, and some of these people 
find 10,000 body parts of their fellow citizens which can only be 
identified with DNA, maybe their viewpoint will change a little.