The Logic Off Topic list

I've been standing back reading all these true feelings and 
comments from all the european members here have, and I want to say 
how it has affected me. I am American, I was born here, and have never 
been fortunate enough to be able to travel outside of this country. 
Truly I will admit my ignorance on many levels about world affairs, 
and what may or may not be truth about what has been said here on this 
list.
    
    Until I joined these international lists, I never had the 
opportunity to discuss subjects with my fellow human beings from all 
over the world. I'm just a regular guy with feelings just like anyone, 
I care about the hurt and pain that people all over the world 
experience, and often cry over something that I hear about that makes 
me wonder what it must be like for those people who are having to live 
through some awlful life that has come their way. The church that I 
attend has for years spent millions going to other countries to try 
and help the unfortunate, the poor, and the children of the poor. 
Sure, I agree, the in many of these instances, we hope for 
Christianity to spread there, but I don't really care about that so 
much, if they already have a faith that is working for them, any faith 
of love is good for me. I wish I knew how to do more for all the 
peoples that are in pain in the world, but I can't, all I can do is 
hurt for them in my own way.

   I'm not alone in these feelings here in America. Most of us here 
are just regular human beings, and if we are wasting your planet, we 
didn't know that. We all live in the means that we can afford, and 
what we grew up with. I, personally, can't afford to be wasteful. If 
running my air conditioner when it's hot, or running the heat when 
it's cold, then I am wasteful, I have to pay for it. When I run out of 
gas in my car, I have to go get gas for it, if that wasteful, I'm 
guilty to that too. 

   I am always worried about the environment, what is happening to it 
because of industry, and all the polutants that they have caused. I'm 
always in favor of changes, and improvements that make for a cleaner, 
better world. As I said I'm ignorant to many of the things that the 
europeans have said about us. I thought (hoped) that we were all more 
friendly to each other than apparently we are. I truly do not have any 
ill feelings about you (europeans), like most of you apparently have 
for us. You guys aren't very friendly at all, IMO. I've been very hurt 
by what I read here by who I thought were merely fellow human beings. 
I had no idea how you really felt toward us.

  From what I've read, I can see that there is much jealousy and 
hatred toward us. I don't know what I've done to deserve it, I never 
felt any hatred toward you. And if you would ask for any help, I and 
any friend of mine would want to help you. But you see that as a 
motive for trying to get something from you or take something from 
you. You can recite what you've read about us, and what you think to 
be true about us all you want, but you obviously don't know me, an 
American. All you know is what you have read or been told.

  My feelings about all this is that, now I know what you really feel, 
you've made it clear, knowing the disgust that you have for us. That 
you think that WE are, and always have been the true problem of this 
world, and you are not. And that we never cared until now when it has 
come to our own soil, about the terrorisms that affects or will affect 
this whole planet, including where you live, sooner or later. That 
just isn't true at all, for me, and for anyone that I know. 

   I know that many of you almighty "wise" folks will say that I just 
can't stomach the truth. It's your truth, not mine. You don't know me, 
but still you don't like me, because I'm American. Well sooner or 
later, that's gonna cause me not to like you back. And for that I'm 
truly sorry.

David Floyd

Dear David

I'm sorry if any of my comments have affected you. Please undrstand 
that disagreement with American politics (and European politics as 
well) doesn't necessarily imply anger against  American people.

>     I've been standing back reading all these true feelings and
>comments from all the european members here have, and I want to say
>how it has affected me.

--- In logic-ot@y..., Vincent Kenis <vincent.k@c...> wrote:
> Dear David
> 
> I'm sorry if any of my comments have affected you. Please 
undrstand 
> that disagreement with American politics (and European 
politics as 
> well) doesn't necessarily imply anger against  American 
people.
> 
> >     I've been standing back reading all these true feelings and
> >comments from all the european members here have, and I 
want to say
> >how it has affected me.

Hi. I just came in on the ass end of this thread, so forgive me if 
I've missed something. I'd just like to offer my perhaps 'unique' 
perspective.

I'm an American citizen who has been living in Germany for the 
past 10 years, and I'm not affiliated with the US military. I have 
two points to make, based on my knowledge of European 
(German, mostly) and American mentalities:

1. to David:
please don't take too much offense to the sentiments expressed 
here in these posts. The fact is that we Americans are quite 
ignorant to the rest of the world, simply because we, being a 
media-dominated society, do not get the information about world 
affairs that would give us the knowledge. The American media 
doesn't view world affairs as interesting to the average viewer, so 
we don't see it. Think about it: before September 11th, how often 
did you see news about the situation in Northern Ireland, the 
Middle East, Asia, or anywhere else in the world on ABC, NBC, 
CBS, or FOX news programs? Very seldom, because the news 
was saturated with Gary Condit , the size of Jennifer Lopez' ass, 
and other BS that really doesn't mean anything. The world is 
mad at us because our government makes stupid , contradictory 
foreign policy decisions, that we as US citizens should know 
about , but don't. that is a major factor as to why Osama bin 
Laden, and others like him, hate us.

2. To the Europeans on this list:
You all must learn that words hurt, so think about what you say, 
and how you say it. When you speak to an American about 
grievances with US government policies, you must distinguish 
that. Realize that the US is a very apolitical society; we distance 
ourselves from our politics and politicians, unfortunately, which 
is why we have such low voter turnouts at our elections. Also, 
Because of the fact that we are so distant from our politicians, 
you cannot with a straight face blame the American people for 
the idiocy of our government. Sure we are polluters, like the 
Europeans, but we also provide for help to other countries in the 
world than any other country in the world, so when you criticize 
us, take these FACTS into account.

Sorry if I've offended anyone here, just offering my thoughts.

Charles Simmons

At 17:40 +0000 9/10/01, cas@... wrote:
>we also provide for help to other countries in the
>world than any other country in the world,

Have you noticed that while rock managers are always seen as 
bloodsuckers, world music producer Peter Gabriel has this inalterable 
image of a sort of Doctor Schweitzer of music ? that's because he 
deals with the Third World, so the assumption is that he _helps_ 
musiciens, that he must be generous....

I'm sure many american individuals are very generous. I'm sure you 
are. But get real, the world "help" doesn't belong in politics. The 
"help" your (and my) country sends to poor countries is first & 
foremost to help itself to make profits - compared to which the 
so-called "help" is but very small change.

I'm not even sure that USA "helps" more than any other country. I 
read somewhere that in proportion of the revenue per capita, Belgium 
"donates" 4 times more, and Norway 10 times more - then again, these 
figures have no real meaning.

Funny but we don't seem to see many Belgium or Norwegian troops in Bosnia, in 
Kuwait, in Vietnam, in Korea, even in WWII. Are there any "Black Granite 
Walls" with thousands of names of dead young men from their country for 
various wars they didn't start and didn't want to be in?

>I'm not even sure that USA "helps" more than any other country. I 
>read somewhere that in proportion of the revenue per capita, Belgium 
>"donates" 4 times more, and Norway 10 times more - then again, these 
>figures have no real meaning.

To:
> >I'm not even sure that USA "helps" more than any other country. I
> >read somewhere that in proportion of the revenue per capita, Belgium
> >"donates" 4 times more, and Norway 10 times more - then again, these
> >figures have no real meaning.

<GAmoore@...> answere:
> Funny but we don't seem to see many Belgium or Norwegian troops in Bosnia,
in
> Kuwait, in Vietnam, in Korea, even in WWII. Are there any "Black Granite
> Walls" with thousands of names of dead young men from their country for
> various wars they didn't start and didn't want to be in?

So, what are you going to say with that?
In the end, this seems pretty clever to me, no?
Apart from WWII (which btw wasn't necessary to even go that far if people
all over the world - of course especially in german - hadn't be as stupid as
to believe that Hitler dumbfuck), what kind of help was that?
Thumbs up for all the Norwegians for having a relatively well prospering
country, a REAL great health and social structure and no soldiers being
involved in any kinda stupid war!

Sascha

--- In logic-ot@y..., GAmoore@a... wrote:
> Funny but we don't seem to see many Belgium or Norwegian 
troops in Bosnia, in 
> Kuwait, in Vietnam, in Korea, even in WWII. 

Belgium and Norway have armed forces? Gee, I didn't know that.

;-)

Charles Simmons
R&B Singer in exile.
http://www.charlessimmons.com

> > Funny but we don't seem to see many Belgium or Norwegian
> troops in Bosnia, in
> > Kuwait, in Vietnam, in Korea, even in WWII.
>
> Belgium and Norway have armed forces? Gee, I didn't know that.
> ;-)


OK, as one of the few Belgians on the list, I _have to_ react now. :-)))
Yes, we have armed forces. Very few indeed, but that is intentional 
because we have enough treaties with other countries and NATO. As for 
the "weight" of these Belgian forces: well, I had to perform for them on 
several occasions and I think they're only good at one thing: drinking 
beer. Depending one these people for our national defense doesn't feel 
very comfortable. :-))

(note though: the situation in the world wars was completely different)

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

> Funny but we don't seem to see many Belgium or Norwegian troops in 
> Bosnia, in
> Kuwait, in Vietnam, in Korea, even in WWII. Are there any "Black Granite
> Walls" with thousands of names of dead young men from their country for
> various wars they didn't start and didn't want to be in?


Belgian forces are involved in Bosnia. The amount of forces etc are 
determinded by NATO and not by Belgium.

As for the Black Granite Walls... Yes, we have them, and there are many 
of those. As I said in my previous mail: one part of Belgium has 
thousands of graveyards with British soldiers and as many with Belgian 
soldiers. You really need to come over to see and see it for yourself. 
I'm afraid we have more names in walls than any other country. :-(
We've confronted with the results of the second world war on a daily 
basis. Some weeks ago, in my city, they had to close the train station 
because during the works, they suddenly found another bomb from the 
second world war. This happens all the time. I really makes one think 
more about life, war,...

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Hi Charles,

> I'm an American citizen who has been living in Germany for the
> past 10 years, and I'm not affiliated with the US military. I have
> two points to make, based on my knowledge of European
> (German, mostly) and American mentalities:
>
> 1. to David:
> 2. To the Europeans on this list:
> Sorry if I've offended anyone here, just offering my thoughts.

Very interesting mail thanks!!!


-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

> At 3:17 AM -0400 10/10/01, Teddy Kumpel wrote:
>> That said, I am American. I don't believe in everything (or hardly anything,
>> for that matter) my government does supposedly on my behalf. Heck, my
>> candidates never get even close to winning elections. I am pretty pissed
>> about how the media controls Americans

 
Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote
> But they clearly don't control *you*.
> 
> This reminds me of the statistics where most people rate their
> driving abilities as "above average".

no they do control me to some extent because there are not enough hours in
the day to get the TRUE news. So we try to read between the lines of what we
can get our noggins around and try to understand what the hell is going on.

> 
> 
>> and how our corporate society has
>> gone so far from morality and safe judgement.
> 
> Implying that there was a time when we had better judgement.

true

I think my judgement is pretty good. I can always do more to protect the
environment, but unfortunately the corporations can make more money if they
don't think that way... I ain't one of those people and I know lots who
aren't that greedy that they would forsake human safety for their own gain.
I hope this war gets us out of that trap if nothing else.

> 
>> I think the bulk of Americans
>> are pretty innocent, very naive, relatively happy even without a lot of
>> money and very giving and good people. I also think that about Europeans,
>> Mexicans, Pakistanis and Koreans, by the way. Maybe I'm naive too...
> 
> I agree.  I think a measure of the times is how much importance
> people can place on simple luxuries like for example the next logic
> update, a new computer for their kid, or a little vacation with their
> girlfriend.  And I pray, in an agnostic kind of way, for a speedy
> return to the  petty  values that seemed so important two months ago.

ya... I guess that was a nice time, but you gotta move with the times. this
is world war 3 and it's gonna change ALL our lives FOREVER...pretty much. no
matter what your take on the situation, that is true. Maybe some good will
come of that. Maybe Ralph Nader will be the next president of the US.

Nostradamus predicts (after the events of 9/11 and according to a TV show
made in the late 70's with Orson Welles MC-ing, filtered and simplified
through me who doesn't believe anything)

this war will last 27 years
Afghanistan and Pakistan will no longer exist when it's over
NYC may become unlivable because of underground fires
there will be a thousand years of peace after the war

interestingly morbid eh...

hopefully gracious,
Teddy Kumpel 

(whos hard drives are working fine with FWB 4.0, HFS+ on all drives,
adaptec 2940U2W, ATI rage orion, NewerTechG3400, Mix Plus and PowerTowerPro)
-- 
GO SEE 
http://www.teddybut.com and
http://www.mp3.com/teddybut
Teddy Kumpel<teddybut@...>
Kumpelstiltskin Music, Inc./EMI Music Publishing
Burning Beagle Studios, Brooklyn, NY

At 10:55 PM -0400 10/10/01, Teddy Kumpel wrote:
>
>I think my judgement is pretty good. I can always do more to protect the
>environment, but unfortunately the corporations can make more money if they
>don't think that way...

Yes environmental consiousness is good but I hope you not implying 
that you have become afflicted with the virulent form of insanity 
that is leading some of the inmates here into the delusion that this 
is a war about environmental issues?  I find it truly ghoulish that 
some people around here most notably Sascha and Spectro seem so eager 
to twist and coopt the nature of the tragedy to serve their own 
personal cause.

Environmentalism is too important an issue to be subverted by well 
meaning people distorting unrelated issues in an attempt to make them 
appear to support the cause and thus damaging the credibility of the 
more responsible members of the movement.

The big problem we've got right now is fanaticism.  It has lots of 
subsets the main ones screwing us up at the moment seem to me to be 
Fundamentalism, Nationalism, and Zionism all of which when taken to 
extremes cause people to loose sight of the bigger picture and 
eventually harm not only their perceived adversaries but themselves 
and their allies as well.  Please do not add environdementalism to 
the list.

>  Maybe Ralph Nader will be the next president of the US.

Heaven forbid.

>Nostradamus predicts (after the events of 9/11 and according to a TV show
>made in the late 70's with Orson Welles MC-ing, filtered and simplified
>through me who doesn't believe anything)
>
>this war will last 27 years
>Afghanistan and Pakistan will no longer exist when it's over
>NYC may become unlivable because of underground fires
>there will be a thousand years of peace after the war
>
>interestingly morbid eh...

Every time there is a big event someone somewhere brings up 
Nostrodamus.   I guess we are all familiar with the one reference 
lately that after making a big stir around the net turned out to have 
been lifted not from Nostrodamus's writings but from a college thesis 
about the ease with which is writings could be interpreted to mean 
*anything*.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote:

>At 10:55 PM -0400 10/10/01, Teddy Kumpel wrote:
>>
>>I think my judgement is pretty good. I can always do more to protect the
>>environment, but unfortunately the corporations can make more money if they
>>don't think that way...
>
>Yes environmental consiousness is good but I hope you not implying
>that you have become afflicted with the virulent form of insanity
>that is leading some of the inmates here into the delusion that this
>is a war about environmental issues?  I find it truly ghoulish that
>some people around here most notably Sascha and Spectro seem so eager
>to twist and coopt the nature of the tragedy to serve their own
>personal cause.

Get it straight.  I am completely aware that 'environmentalism' is not
one of the primary motivations behind recent events. I brought issues
of resource use and environmenal consequences as one of a number
of  general bases for which the US could be viewed with some resentment
by other parties (not neccesarily the terrorists) when responding to
one of your earlier posts (24th September) I believe.  Though I have
referred to the  distribution of wealth more recently, I *never* stated
environmental issues were directly relevant in subsequent posts on the
'topic' (Re: [L-OT] OT^2 - Thanks), but I did respond  on this issue to
one of GA Moore's 'inquiries'.  Go back and follow the thread carefully
and disprove me if you doubt me, but don't make me out to be what I am
not, nor ascribe to me personal agendas I do not have.

S.

At 6:15 PM +1000 10/11/01, Spectro wrote:
>Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote:
>
>>At 10:55 PM -0400 10/10/01, Teddy Kumpel wrote:
>>>
>>>I think my judgement is pretty good. I can always do more to protect the
>>>environment, but unfortunately the corporations can make more money if they
>>>don't think that way...
>>
>>Yes environmental consiousness is good but I hope you not implying
>>that you have become afflicted with the virulent form of insanity
>>that is leading some of the inmates here into the delusion that this
>>is a war about environmental issues?  I find it truly ghoulish that
>>some people around here most notably Sascha and Spectro seem so eager
>>to twist and coopt the nature of the tragedy to serve their own
>>personal cause.
>
>Get it straight.  I am completely aware that 'environmentalism' is not
>one of the primary motivations behind recent events.

All right lets get it straight.  "not one of the *primary* 
motivations"   ?  To a native speaker of English this seems to be 
implying that you think it may be a secondary motivation.  Is that 
what you are meaning to say or am I misunderstanding?

Also get it straight that comments such as those of  Vincent Kenis 
when he said:

At 11:29 AM +0200 10/9/01, Vincent Kenis wrote:
>Maybe these fairytales
>are necessary in a country born on genocide and slavery, where a good
>part of the slaves' grandchildren still live in subhuman conditions,
>and which sucks the planet dry in a criminal way. I don't know. But I
>wish you looked around and realized that the world isn't based on
>fair trade or equal chances.

<snip>

>When it comes to international terrorism Ben Laden
>is just a schoolboy, America and Europe have been exporting war and
>desolation for decades.

Are not only very unfair but would very certainly be taken by the 
terrorists, and for that matter, the fundamentalist mobs rioting  in 
Pakistan and Indonesia, as sympathy for their actions.  That is why 
they are not well received by Americans.



-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote:

>All right lets get it straight.  "not one of the *primary*
>motivations"   ?  To a native speaker of English this seems to be
>implying that you think it may be a secondary motivation.  Is that
>what you are meaning to say or am I misunderstanding?

I said what I meant. Given that one of the *primary* gripes of the
terrorist(s) appears to be the perceived occupation and abuse of
territories held as significant to them, then however tenuous
a link, it is indeed an 'environmental' issue at some level. To
be clear though, this bears no relation to how the US deals with
its own environment, and I am in no way trying to infer that it does.

>Also get it straight that comments such as those of  Vincent Kenis
>when he said:
>
>At 11:29 AM +0200 10/9/01, Vincent Kenis wrote:
>>Maybe these fairytales
>>are necessary in a country born on genocide and slavery, where a good
>>part of the slaves' grandchildren still live in subhuman conditions,
>>and which sucks the planet dry in a criminal way. I don't know. But I
>>wish you looked around and realized that the world isn't based on
>>fair trade or equal chances.
>
><snip>
>
>>When it comes to international terrorism Ben Laden
>>is just a schoolboy, America and Europe have been exporting war and
>>desolation for decades.
>
>Are not only very unfair but would very certainly be taken by the
>terrorists, and for that matter, the fundamentalist mobs rioting  in
>Pakistan and Indonesia, as sympathy for their actions.  That is why
>they are not well received by Americans.

Whatever comments Vincent Kenis makes are his responsibility and
by merging his and my statements you are implying that they are
somehow 'our' doing and that I should somehow be held to account for
them regardless of whether I agree or not.

S.

At 10:59 PM +1000 10/11/01, Spectro wrote:
>Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote:
>
>>All right lets get it straight.  "not one of the *primary*
>>motivations"   ?  To a native speaker of English this seems to be
>>implying that you think it may be a secondary motivation.  Is that
>>what you are meaning to say or am I misunderstanding?
>
>I said what I meant. Given that one of the *primary* gripes of the
>terrorist(s) appears to be the perceived occupation and abuse of
>territories held as significant to them, then however tenuous
>a link, it is indeed an 'environmental' issue at some level.

Not buying this for an instant.   Territorial and environmental are 
two different things.  Giving the terrorists environmentalist motives 
is pure attribution.  Unwise in the extreme.  I would never attribute 
one of my values to a terrorist.  It would not make me look good. 
And further why would one want to assign them virtues they don't even 
claim for themselves.   Foolish and ghoulish.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote:

>Not buying this for an instant. Territorial and environmental are
>two different things.

Only when viewed in a political and economic sense. What is
territory if nothing more than a 'claim' to an environment?

>Giving the terrorists environmentalist motives  is pure attribution.

The following is taken from an article which is based on a letter
sent  to Al-Quds al-Arabi, an Arabic newspaper published in
London entitled "Declaration of the World Islamic Front for Jihad
against the Jews and the Crusaders" and can be viewed at:

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/Search/document_briefings.asp?i=19981101facomment1
428.xml

"Since God laid down the Arabian peninsula, created its desert,
and surrounded it with its seas, no calamity has ever befallen
it like these Crusader hosts that have spread in it like locusts,
crowding its soil, eating its fruits, and destroying its verdure;
 and this at a time when the nations contend against the Muslims
like diners jostling around a bowl of food."

These are motives. And they are describing  a territorial
invasion as an environmental catastrophe. And after selected
passages of the Q'ran which open the procalamation, they are the
first composed words of that letter.

>Unwise in the extreme.  I would never attribute
>one of my values to a terrorist.

Arrogant in the extreme.  In any case, whatever values you
do or do not attribute to a terrorist won't make any difference
to their truths.  And obviously vice versa. And if and while these
statements are both true, concilliation of any sort will never be a
possiblity and that I suspect is really bad news for all of us...

>It would not make me look good.

Is that the real problem? We're past that. Or should be.

>And further why would one want to assign them virtues they don't even
>claim for themselves.   Foolish and ghoulish.

See Above.

You seem to persist in targeting every perceived flaw in my
responses to your provocations. Rather selectively, as if in order
to confirm your obvious suspicions that I am a terrorist apologist
and/or strongly Anti-American or just 'ghoulish'. Well I am sorry
to disappoint you but I am none of those,  though I am seriously
wondering who the one with the agenda is.

At 1:10 AM +1000 10/12/01, Spectro wrote:
>Dennis Gunn <mightyjohn@...> wrote:
>
>>Not buying this for an instant. Territorial and environmental are
>  >two different things.
>
>Only when viewed in a political and economic sense. What is
>territory if nothing more than a 'claim' to an environment?

No it is a claim to a territory.  The environment of that territory 
may or may not be a factor.  Quite often it is not.

>  >Giving the terrorists environmentalist motives  is pure attribution.
>
>The following is taken from an article which is based on a letter
>sent  to Al-Quds al-Arabi, an Arabic newspaper published in
>London entitled "Declaration of the World Islamic Front for Jihad
>against the Jews and the Crusaders" and can be viewed at:
>
>http://www.foreignaffairs.org/Search/document_briefings.asp?i=19981101facomment1
>428.xml
>
>"Since God laid down the Arabian peninsula, created its desert,
>and surrounded it with its seas, no calamity has ever befallen
>it like these Crusader hosts that have spread in it like locusts,
>crowding its soil, eating its fruits, and destroying its verdure;
>  and this at a time when the nations contend against the Muslims
>like diners jostling around a bowl of food."

Are there really crusader hosts crowding in the soil?   Show me one. 
Its just racist rhetoric.  It can't be taken literally because it 
would not make sense. AFAIK the area does not have a significant 
agricultural export economy so the "fruits" they would seem to be 
referring to would be their oil and when they are not bitching about 
how evil we are they are not opposed to selling us as much of that as 
they can.  They get tons of money for it and if they were concerned 
about their ecology they could use the money to make the dessert 
bloom.  As a matter of fact in some places that is exactly what they 
do do with the money they get for their oil so the fact of the matter 
is we are probably helping their ecology more than hurting it.

Like I said if they were truly environmentalists they would have been 
offended by Hussien burning the Kuwaiti oil field and dumping all the 
oil into the gulf.

>These are motives. And they are describing  a territorial
>invasion as an environmental catastrophe. And after selected
>passages of the Q'ran which open the procalamation, they are the
>first composed words of that letter.
>
>>Unwise in the extreme.  I would never attribute
>>one of my values to a terrorist.
>
>Arrogant in the extreme.

Is it arrogant to say that you do not share the values of a terrorist 
and do not want their actions associated with your values?  OK then 
I'm arrogant.  So shoot me.

>In any case, whatever values you
>do or do not attribute to a terrorist won't make any difference
>to their truths.  And obviously vice versa. And if and while these
>statements are both true, concilliation of any sort will never be a
>possiblity and that I suspect is really bad news for all of us...

Is conciliation with terrorists a good idea?  Is it good to have 
people think that is the way to get the conciliations they want?

>  >It would not make me look good.
>
>Is that the real problem? We're past that. Or should be.

Terrorism is a symbolic act.  Perceptions *are* important sometimes.

>  >And further why would one want to assign them virtues they don't even
>>claim for themselves.   Foolish and ghoulish.
>
>See Above.

I did.  It was symbolic rather than literal language otherwise it 
just did not make sense.

>You seem to persist in targeting every perceived flaw in my
>responses to your provocations.

*My* provocations?   Anyway not every flaw is getting targeted, I 
would not have time.


>  Rather selectively, as if in order
>to confirm your obvious suspicions that I am a terrorist apologist
>and/or strongly Anti-American or just 'ghoulish'. Well I am sorry
>to disappoint you but I am none of those,  though I am seriously
>wondering who the one with the agenda is.

I am just saying exactly what I mean.  When you attribute your 
motives to a terrorist you imply that the terrorist was striking a 
blow for your cause and that in your opinion the terrorist was 
justified in some small degree.  I am not willing to give them that. 
I am not willing to recognize any agenda promoted in that way.  And 
just as I do not want terrorists promoting my causes I do not 
appreciate anyone associating a cause I agree with terrorists.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
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