The Logic Off Topic list

And the US government has Officially asked Qatar to sensor al-jazeera,
because they host talk shows that anyone can call and say there opinion,
Freedom of Speech?!!!

> Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire
> speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.

This war is "advertised" as a war against terrorism... as a war to 
protect our freedom.
The White House has asked broadcasters not to broadcast Bin Laden's 
tapes, so CNN and other Western stations will not broadcast these 
anymore. The ones that were broadcasted so far were heavily edited (only 
small parts were shown). Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire 
speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.

Freedom?

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

At 05:26 PM 12/10/01 +0200, you wrote:
>This war is "advertised" as a war against terrorism... as a war to 
>protect our freedom.
>The White House has asked broadcasters not to broadcast Bin Laden's 
>tapes, so CNN and other Western stations will not broadcast these 
>anymore. The ones that were broadcasted so far were heavily edited (only 
>small parts were shown). Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire 
>speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.
>
>Freedom?

You have to wonder about the prudence of some American media coverage though. 

I turned on US Today the other night and they had this 'expert' explaining
some details about what you needed to do to get anthrax spores up to the
point where they would be able to deliver a fatal dose. (She was specifying
the dimensions that the spores needed to get to in microns when I tuned
in.) Amazing stuff. 

Regards,
Murray

It's difficult - to be fair, I think there's some reasonable chance that bin
Laden's messages include coded instructions - this sort of thing was common
in WWII and Laden is a student of history as well as a pretty good
tactician.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Joeri Vankeirsbilck" <joeri@...>
To: "Logic OT" <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 8:26 AM
Subject: [L-OT] protecting freedom?


> This war is "advertised" as a war against terrorism... as a war to
> protect our freedom.
> The White House has asked broadcasters not to broadcast Bin Laden's
> tapes, so CNN and other Western stations will not broadcast these
> anymore. The ones that were broadcasted so far were heavily edited (only
> small parts were shown). Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire
> speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.
>
> Freedom?
>
> --
> Joeri Vankeirsbilck
> joeri@...
>
> Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
> List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

I can't speak to that but as an aside I will say I was quite irate about the
closing of iraradio.com and the website that does the allewis show by the
government.  Everything I've seen on this seems to be a true story.  I am
totally opposed to this and it's the kind of civil rights things I do fear
as a reaction here in the States.


----- Original Message -----

From: "LogicBaby" <basharar@...>
To: "logic ot yahoogroups.com" <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] protecting freedom?


> And the US government has Officially asked Qatar to sensor al-jazeera,
> because they host talk shows that anyone can call and say there opinion,
> Freedom of Speech?!!!
>
> > Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire
> > speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> It's difficult - to be fair, I think there's some reasonable chance 
> that bin
> Laden's messages include coded instructions - this sort of thing was 
> common
> in WWII and Laden is a student of history as well as a pretty good
> tactician.


To be honest, I was afraid someone would mention this "explanation" 
which was given by the White House.
However, I don't understand it: why should there be a "coded 
instruction"??? I mean, Bin Laden's statements are not coded (depending 
if you consider the Arabic language to be a strange encryption ;-) and 
he's publicly saying "you will not be safe until the Palestinians feel 
safe and until you leave the country(ies) of the Muslims". Bush is 
saying exactly the same thing from his point of view "Bin Laden and Al 
Qaeda and all "terrorists" are not safe and we'll come after you". I 
mean, both parties are publicly saying they'll "get eachother". Imo 
there's no need for extra coded messages: all seems to be in it: 
mobilize and go for it. So imo claiming there might be coded messages in 
it, is a lame excuse. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not familiar 
with these "coded messages" so if something else is meant, pleas explain.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>I think there's some reasonable chance that bin
>Laden's messages include coded instructions - this sort of thing was common
>in WWII and Laden is a student of history

I know Ben Laden is primitive, but maybe not to the point he never 
heard about the Internet !

> mobilize and go for it. So imo claiming there might be coded messages in
> it, is a lame excuse. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not familiar
> with these "coded messages" so if something else is meant, pleas explain.

The use of specific words can mean specific things.  For example, saying "It
is important that all Americans beware" could mean "anyone in Washington DC
see Joe Bob" versus "Ameicans will shake in fear" could mean "anyone in NY
execute plan B".  This is an old form of encoding, speaking in public using
phrases only understood within an organization.  It is used when an
organization has cells disbursed such that they do not have regular
communication but have access to public airwaves (radio, TV).

>> > Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire
>> > speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.

Which are worse?

ROLLLLFFFFFFFFFFFF:)))))))))))

> 
> Actually bush is a dream come true for anyone wishing to make the US
> look stupid.  Especially useful are the press conferences where he
> stumbles on looking like he's slowly making his way toward some point
> then simply stops before he reaches it looking a bit like a stunned
> cow that has just trotted into a tree.  I hope for everyone's sake
> that he is just this way in front of cameras.
> --

At 5:26 PM +0200 10/12/01, Joeri Vankeirsbilck wrote:
>This war is "advertised" as a war against terrorism... as a war to
>protect our freedom.
>The White House has asked broadcasters not to broadcast Bin Laden's
>tapes, so CNN and other Western stations will not broadcast these
>anymore. The ones that were broadcasted so far were heavily edited (only
>small parts were shown). Al Jazeera broadcasts Bin Laden's entire
>speeches. It also broadcasts Bush's entire speeches.

Actually bush is a dream come true for anyone wishing to make the US 
look stupid.  Especially useful are the press conferences where he 
stumbles on looking like he's slowly making his way toward some point 
then simply stops before he reaches it looking a bit like a stunned 
cow that has just trotted into a tree.  I hope for everyone's sake 
that he is just this way in front of cameras.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Hi Dennis,

Dennis Gunn wrote:
>Actually bush is a dream come true for anyone wishing to make the US
>look stupid.
Unfortunately, Dennis, people like Mr. Bush is all some of us ever see as 
representative of the USA. With all due respect to you, he is coming over 
as a perfectly ordinary and typical American, expressing perfectly ordinary 
and typical American views in a perfectly ordinary and typical American 
kind of way. What he is saying and doing is how the US usually looks. In my 
view. I mean no disrespect but I cannot see what is really so very 
different about it.

>   Especially useful are the press conferences where he
>stumbles on looking like he's slowly making his way toward some point
>then simply stops before he reaches it looking a bit like a stunned
>cow that has just trotted into a tree.

It is a mystery -- and it would seem to be so to you -- why so many 
ordinary and typical Americans felt it appropriate to choose him for their 
president. It is surely not unreasonable to conclude that it is because 
ordinary and typical Americans regard him as the ideal representative of 
their ordinary and typical lives -- and that the policies he is pursuing, 
which are really rather ordinary and really rather typical of the kind of 
American foreign policy that his predecessors have also pursued -- is in 
fact properly representative of what it is that Americans want now and what 
Americans have always wanted when it comes time for their country to be 
represented in the international arena.

>I hope for everyone's sake that he is just this way in front of cameras.
Unfortunately, the kinds of Americans that most people run into are this 
same way in their private lives also. They oscillate disturbingly between 
stunned cows and mad cows with it being extremely difficult to tell which 
of these two is preferable. Would that it was an easy choice to make


I count myself fortunate that I have met enough Americans to know that this 
kind of thing is indeed not typical, although some of the stupidities that 
I have seen Americans bandy about even in this relatively enlightened forum 
has started to make me want to revisit this issue. But ... fortunately for 
all the US citizens on this list I am made of considerably more optimistic 
stuff and am a very patient man. My gods and my ancestors, whom some of you 
have seen fit to disparage, have made me that way and I thank them for it.

Maybe ... just maybe ... it would help if more Americans left home a bit 
more and found out a bit more about the world so that most people in the 
world are not left with you all obviously feel is this kind of flagrantly 
false impression of what Americans are really like and actually like.

Who knows ... i such a thing were to happen then maybe Americans might also 
learn a bit more about what the rest of the world is really like also. I 
count myself fortunate that I have been able to travel and find out for 
myself. However, Americans are the ones with all the money. Maybe they 
should spend it on travelling around a bit and going to other places for it 
is certain that most people on this planet are way too impoverished to 
return the courtesy. In any case, thanks to Mr. Bush Americans enjoy air 
supremacy pretty much everywhere now.

Nothing I have said in this email was intended to be inflammatory. However, 
if in spite of all my efforts I have written anything that can be construed 
that way then I would be obliged if some American would tell me what it is 
-- preferably in kindness and with good grace -- and they will have my 
immediate apology forthwith and I shall cease from trying to make this 
point for surely it will have proved itself and entirely worthless point to 
try to make. Maybe my descendants will fare better in trying to make it 
which is pretty much all I will have left to hope for.

Kool Musick
Kool Musick Kool

  


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

At 5:13 AM -0700 10/13/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>Hi Dennis,
>
>Dennis Gunn wrote:
>>Actually bush is a dream come true for anyone wishing to make the US
>>look stupid.
>Unfortunately, Dennis, people like Mr. Bush is all some of us ever see as
>representative of the USA. With all due respect to you, he is coming over
>as a perfectly ordinary and typical American, expressing perfectly ordinary
>and typical American views in a perfectly ordinary and typical American
>kind of way. What he is saying and doing is how the US usually looks. In my
>view. I mean no disrespect but I cannot see what is really so very
>different about it.

With all due respect go find something large and thorny and stick it 
in where the where your comes out.  Of course I mean no disrespect 
when I say this it is just a respectful suggestion.  No offence 
intended of course.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Hi Dennis,

>With all due respect go find something large and thorny and stick it
>in where the where your comes out.  Of course I mean no disrespect
>when I say this it is just a respectful suggestion.  No offence
>intended of course.

None taken.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> president. It is surely not unreasonable to conclude that it is because
> ordinary and typical Americans regard him as the ideal representative of
> their ordinary and typical lives -- and that the policies he is pursuing,

I think it is unreasonable to conclude that even 40% of Americans (or even
10%) considerhim "as the ideal representative" UNLESS you think in your own
democracies that you get to elect "ideal" representatives.  Typically I've
heard a number of Euros (at least English and Germans, the 2 I talk to a
good bit via work) say the same thing about their elections as we do - the
guys running for office from the major parties aren't that great.

Kool, I don't even know what you are so you might not be in a democracy and
hence your comment might seem reasonable to you - ? - but I assure you,
democracies are not mechanisms by which the people elect anything
approaching an ideal, typically.  Instead we get a compromise, someone who's
often simply not as objectionable as the others who've gotten close to the
leadership.

> stuff and am a very patient man. My gods and my ancestors, whom some of
you
> have seen fit to disparage, have made me that way and I thank them for it.

I missed the disparagement, particularly since I didn't see anyone here even
know who your gods are.  As far as I can tell you're a pagan or Hindu or
who-knows-what that in any case hasn't come up.  The closest thing to a
disparagement I saw was GA's comment that primitive people seek to accredit
things to supernatural entities that you reacted to.  In any case sorry if
it was done inadvertantly.  I think by the same token though those of you
who have religious convictions and see fit to trumpet them here equally
disparage those of us who not merely disbelieve but disavow. But I don't
take offense and I don't feel personally disparaged.

>
> Maybe ... just maybe ... it would help if more Americans left home a bit
> more and found out a bit more about the world so that most people in the
> world are not left with you all obviously feel is this kind of flagrantly
> false impression of what Americans are really like and actually like.
>

You know, the sad thing about traveling what little I have (France, Germany,
England, different parts of America) for me is I have found the world is a
much worse place than I had imagined when I grew up under liberal
influences.  But on the other hand I certainly have found people are all
alike in that we all pretty much suck in some fundamental ways as well as
shine in some fundamental ways.

Kool Musick wrote:
> > It is surely not unreasonable to conclude that it is because
> > ordinary and typical Americans regard him as the ideal representative of
> > their ordinary and typical lives -- and that the policies he is pursuing,

Wilson Zorn responded:
>I think it is unreasonable to conclude that even 40% of Americans (or even
>10%) considerhim "as the ideal representative" UNLESS you think in your own
>democracies that you get to elect "ideal" representatives.

You are perfectly correct, of course. It's just that when democracy is 
being sold, there's a lot of the fine print that's omitted.


>Kool, I don't even know what you are so you might not be in a democracy and
>hence your comment might seem reasonable to you - ? - but I assure you,
>democracies are not mechanisms by which the people elect anything
>approaching an ideal, typically.
I know that ... I was just trying to kind of get across to you and anyone 
else interested what it looked like when people keep on and on trying to 
sell the system abroad as 'the great panacaea to end all your troubles'. 
Which is what is consistently done.

>Instead we get a compromise,
As immediately above ... this is not how it is sold. Would you like a job 
in selling, by the way!!!!


>I missed the disparagement, particularly since I didn't see anyone here even
>know who your gods are.
OK.

>As far as I can tell you're a pagan or Hindu or
>who-knows-what that in any case hasn't come up.
Who-knows-what is fine!

>I think by the same token though those of you
>who have religious convictions and see fit to trumpet them here equally
>disparage those of us who not merely disbelieve but disavow.
Well ... I don't think I trumpet mine, actually, because mostly I believe 
in the great god Science, with just a bit of help from mumbo-jumbo to fill 
in a few gaps. And since the mumbo-jumbo is not really universalizable ... 
!!!!!


>You know, the sad thing about traveling what little I have (France, Germany,
>England, different parts of America) for me is I have found the world is a
>much worse place than I had imagined when I grew up under liberal
>influences.
Well ... actually ... I know some people who have visited the USA and left 
with the same kind of impression. Pity, that.


>But on the other hand I certainly have found people are all
>alike in that we all pretty much suck in some fundamental ways as well as
>shine in some fundamental ways.

Yes. It's worth doing some travelling just to learn that much. Kind of like 
travelling the whole world and finding out that the girl you love actually 
lives right next door I guess.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Dennis Gunn wrote:

>With all due respect go find something large and thorny and stick it
>in where the where your comes out.  Of course I mean no disrespect
>when I say this it is just a respectful suggestion.  No offence
>intended of course.

Whatever I said to provoke you into this I apologise.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Dennis Gunn wrote:
 > > Actually bush is a dream come true for anyone wishing to make the US
 > > look stupid.

Dennis Gunn also wrote:
 > > Especially useful are the press conferences where he
 > > stumbles on looking like he's slowly making his way toward some point
 > > then simply stops before he reaches it looking a bit like a stunned
 > > cow that has just trotted into a tree.

Actually, Dennis, the person who first put cows and Americans together in 
one sentence was you. Not me.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> Unfortunately, the kinds of Americans that most people run into are this
> same way in their private lives also. They oscillate disturbingly between
> stunned cows and mad cows with it being extremely difficult to tell which
> of these two is preferable. Would that it was an easy choice to make

what the heck? Who are "most people"??? Where are you from Kool Musick? So
Jennifer Lopez is the same at home in her jammies as she is when she's in a
video? I don't get this comment at all. what about all the americans who
aren't on TV? how do you know how people are behind closed doors? Bush is,
if anything, a typical ordinary rich, super connected, WASPy, oil trust fund
kid from New Haven, CT who found it easier to get over if he pretends he's
from Texas mostly because they had an open seat in the congress and some of
his Dad's oil buddies were there to lend some big $. Truth is he went to
junior high school in TX for a couple of months before transferring to an
exclusive prep school in Andover, MD. The ordinary and typical life of most
Americans is nothing like Bush's. He's a silver spoon boy.

I personally have a problem envisioning what the typical and ordinary life
of an American is, since we are so diverse. You want to talk about
stereotypes? blech... that's what got us into this mess in the first place.
anyway, here's a few stereotypes I have personally observed in NYC. 1) the
Pakistani taxi driver who has an American flag on his dashboard so he won't
get his ass kicked. Good cover for terrorists. No turban is the way in Al
quaeda 2) the Long Island Jewish lady who shops at the Mall on Saturdays for
Gucci bags and has her hair done in a horrendous and somehow blue hued
manner that couldn't possibly attract any man except her husband. She only
goes to the Synagogue 3 times a year 3) The slacker Deadhead son of a
suburban, moderately rich family who only eats fast food because it's easier
than cooking and smokes weed cause it's cheaper than beer. his trust fund is
running out so he usually works at an occult store in a small quaint town
near, but not in, the Hamptons. He likes Tie Dying 4) African American hip
hop guy who wears big jeans, truly amazing sneakers, eats fried chicken at
Popye's and like girls wit big butts. He worships butts. The bigger the
cushion the better the pushin. He's usually always loudly imitating the
latest hip hop song on Z100 5) the German tourist, loves America, wants to
be American, studies America and goes to all the Museums. 6) the Japanese
tourist, has a really hi tech camera and is always looking up 7) east
Village guitar guy, has a guitar bag on his back, eats at vegetarian
restaurants, smokes American Spirits cause it has no chemicals, goes to more
rehersals than gigs. 8) Capri pants girls who have jennifer anniston
haircuts and work at the GAP. They usually have boyfriends who wear a
leather jacket 9) Orthodox Jewish business men who ride the subway even
though they're millionaires. They sell cameras and diamonds in midtown. they
don't have TV's 10) Crazy toothless Homeless people who explain to you on
the subway what happened to them in their life that they have to be asking
for money from you. 11) Couch Potato non descript people who go to their
ordinary and typical job at, let's say, a Credit card processing plant and
like to order things from the home shopping club. They are only interested
in what's gonna happen on the next season of "Friends" and their own
reproductive freedom 12) Young hip professionals with their designer clothes
and constantly in use cell phones walking around SOHO, intelligent and
unique, they make up their own stereotype because they have something in
common, the desire to be upwardly mobile. 13) Ex-Cops who become accountants
later in life and can't tell the difference between a royalty and a
dividend. 14) University professors who, while very smart, are locked into
academia and can't see the forest through the trees. They are idealogical
even at age 60. They'd like to think they'll drop dead teaching.

Do you have any of those stereotype in your country?

> 
> 
> I count myself fortunate that I have met enough Americans to know that this
> kind of thing is indeed not typical, although some of the stupidities that
> I have seen Americans bandy about even in this relatively enlightened forum
> has started to make me want to revisit this issue.

aren't there other nationalities bandying about stupid things too? maybe
not..

> Maybe ... just maybe ... it would help if more Americans left home a bit
> more and found out a bit more about the world so that most people in the
> world are not left with you all obviously feel is this kind of flagrantly
> false impression of what Americans are really like and actually like.

people should do what they want. Maybe they don't want to visit your
country. I probably have so don't blame me.

> 
> Who knows ... i such a thing were to happen then maybe Americans might also
> learn a bit more about what the rest of the world is really like also.

if our media didn't suck, maybe we could learn more that way too...

> However, Americans are the ones with all the money.

huh? the US is third world if you ask me... there more poor people here than
anywhere in Europe...

> 
> Nothing I have said in this email was intended to be inflammatory.

not inflamatory, a little harsh, maybe though... no offense taken by me

However, 
> if in spite of all my efforts I have written anything that can be construed
> that way then I would be obliged if some American would tell me what it is
> -- preferably in kindness and with good grace -- and they will have my
> immediate apology forthwith and I shall cease from trying to make this
> point for surely it will have proved itself and entirely worthless point to
> try to make. Maybe my descendants will fare better in trying to make it
> which is pretty much all I will have left to hope for.

why be so extreme?

Teddy Kumpel
Brooklyn, NY