The Logic Off Topic list

>Yes indeedy it was *not* my intention that the word *not*  would 
>*not* be included in that sentence because without it, it is *not* 
>what I was intending to say.  I was meaning say that side of the 
>argument is *not* getting represented much here.

I agree with Dennis. Its interesting to have someone like Tiran who will 
speak up for the issues. Thats the only way we can have a debate. In 
fact, I wish he would answer the questions put forth, rather than just 
copy and paste some propoganda. 

My theory is this. Jews were treated terribly in Germany and the 
countries Germany conquered. It was perhaps the worst case of genocide - 
although I don't know the actual percentages of those killed. Pol Pot in 
Cambodia, the Armenians at the hands of the Turks, and other cases are 
worthy of comparison also - and of course greater numbers of Russian and 
Chinese were killed, but smaller percenagewise. For example if 15 million 
Chinese died out of 450 million is that a 'drop in the bucket'? However, 
there is not doubt that it was unthinkably bad for the Judaism. 

The problem is that, ever after they use that as a justification for a 
lot things which are not legal, humane, or proper. They have built up 
this mythology in their own greatness, and a certain pride in the 
suffering their ancestors endured, and the hatred of Arabs, and the whole 
thing to the point that they can't even think reasonably anymore. They 
keep this tradition alive in all of the movies, museums, books, etc about 
the mass death in WWII - to a degree which is a bit morbid and unnatural. 
Most people of the world, don't dwell on these things to this extent, and 
move on with their lives - maybe with some lingering bitterness, but not 
this cult of revelling in the tragedy.

The rallying cries for Israel and Jews around the world, regarding the 
mass deaths of WWII, is "never again, never again." I've heard that for 
years.  However, when it was happening again with death camps in Croatia, 
Bosnia, Cambodia, etc - where were the Jews, who should understand the 
pain, when this was going on? I guess "Never again" only means "Never 
again if Jews are involved - anyone else, screw em."

I am glad that Tiran sent has sent some messages with the other point of 
view. At least there is some limited debate, instead of just making 
certain topics too sensitive for discussion. I find those justifications 
for Israel he sent to be a far flung effort to find some legitimacy to 
stealing another people's home and brutalizing them. Israeli's can be so 
compassionate to their own, but so brutal to others. 

Just yesterday, some extremist Palestinians killed an Israeli prominent 
cabinet minister. Israel responds with arbitrarily doing a whole bunch of 
things to screw ALL palestinians. On the other hand, the Palestinians are 
supposed to sit back and do nothing while their leaders are 
systematically executied day after day - snipers, rocket attacks, car 
bombs ... just in the last week. In the case of the Palestinian killers 
of one guy, they were a couple of extremist - in the case of Israeli 
killers - its not the extremists - its the state of Israel committing the 
acts! And its not just one, its one a day. 

Because Israel tells the US to go stick in up our asses whenever we ask 
them to make peace, there will never be peace or justice in the middle 
east, unless the US withholds support or plays hardball with Israel to 
force them to be fair. In retrospect it was a terrible mistake to create 
Israel there , especially in the aggressive, insensitive way that it was 
and is being done. But now that its done, Israel needs to be supported, 
but only if they will get the chip off their shoulder and start treating 
the Palestinians as people.

And who will gain the most from Peace? Both the Israelis and the 
Palestinians. Thats what so sad about this. They both will profit from 
peace. Instead they both suffer from this lack of peace. The whole Arab 
world would be better too - because now Israel is just a huge injustice 
that it polarizes the Arabs. The common man in Syria, Jordan, Iraq, 
Pakistan, or other places thinks more about Israel's oppression that the 
fact they are ruled by Kings or generals who came to power by coups.

And we, Americans, get our buildings knocked down, and anthrax sent to 
our leaders as a result. That is my interest in this. I want this shit in 
the middle east to stop - now. For all of our lives, that horseshit has 
been going on Israel, Lebannon, etc. I'm sick and tired of it. And I'm 
afraid for the whole, world if this terrorism thing spins out of control 
- as its starting to do.

GAmoore@... wrote:

> The common man in Syria, Jordan, Iraq,
>Pakistan, or other places thinks more about Israel's oppression that the
>fact they are ruled by Kings or generals who came to power by coups.

Somehow, I doubt that.

>And we, Americans, get our buildings knocked down, and anthrax sent to
>our leaders as a result.

I doubt that too.  If that were the only reason, the terrorists may as
well have flown planes into Israeli targets.

That is my interest in this. I want this shit in
>the middle east to stop - now. For all of our lives, that horseshit has
>been going on Israel, Lebannon, etc. I'm sick and tired of it. And I'm
>afraid for the whole, world if this terrorism thing spins out of control
>- as its starting to do.

I agree with you here completely. But the problem seems to be that
everyone wants to have the last word. Tit for tat. Eye for Eye. That
is after all, what the  Palestinians and Israelis are doing, and what
the US is doing in Afghanistan.  You can call it what you like and
justify it how you wish (I like 'Attack on terrorism' as it neatly
mirrors 'Terrorist Attack' in lots of ways ) but in the end it will be
seen as another eye taken that will need to be avenged. And increasing
the likelihood that it does indeed spin out of control...

S.

> The rallying cries for Israel and Jews around the world, regarding the
> mass deaths of WWII, is "never again, never again." I've heard that for
> years.  However, when it was happening again with death camps in Croatia,
> Bosnia, Cambodia, etc - where were the Jews, who should understand the >
pain, when this was going on? I guess "Never again" only means "Never
> again if Jews are involved - anyone else, screw em."
>

I'm not weighing in on any side, but just as an interesting personal
experience, when the US plane was downed over Scotland, a guy I worked for
who was Jewish seriously advocated rounding up all the Arabs in the United
States and putting them in camps.  He saw no irony in his comments (not that
I challenged him, he wasn't particularly rationale on the point).  I always
found this a bit scary and interesting, though I'm by no means generalizing
this beyond him - but it does show how some people certainly don't learn.