logic-ot@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> Original Message:
> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 04:13:48 +1000
> From: Spectro <spectro@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: fwd ... Holy Lands
>
> "Zeek Duff" <zkduff@...> wrote:
>
> >It would make a whole lot more sense as an American reaction to
> >terrorism if we made all these so-called "religious leaders" get
> >together to create an international PERMANENT moratorium on claiming
> >their faith is the ONLY way to God. It would make a lot more sense if
> >THEY declared war on those who kill in the name of God, those who claim
> >their religious instruction has justified murder. It would make a lot
> >more sense if those religious leaders were so outraged as to beg for the
> >eradication of any murderous zealots who promote the killing of anyone
> >who disagrees with them in the name of God.
>
> If by eradicate, you mean kill, then this would be paradoxical, no? .
In this case, the influential religious "powers that be" are all wrong. If four
out of five religions are wrong, the only way to choose "the right one" is to
choose none of them. Since all of them depend on the word of some man who may or
may not have said what he's purported to have said, it's ALL based on
interpretation, with equal amounts of blind faith, instilled by fear and bullshit
propaganda. That could be tempered enough to be made tolerant of other belief
systems, and the roots changed so that new growth (youthful family members, and
children of refugees) can't become radicalized so easily. That's what I meant by
"eradicate," and some people I'm seeing respond to me take that to mean
"killing." They need to know that the word means literally, "tear out by the
roots." Oh well... I'll set 'em straight, one by one, I guess. :)
>
>
> >Obviously, those "religious
> >leaders" are ALL dead wrong, right now... Anyone claiming their faith
> >is the ONLY way to God is an idiot. Anyone claiming it's a sin to break
> >religious laws that go against the very nature of basic human rights and
> >freedom of choice is an immoral ass, plain and simple. THAT stupid,
> >convoluted philosophy is where all of this shit started folks, and is
> >definitely why it has continued for eons, and has now sucked us in,
> >completely. Think about it.
>
> I agree with you here, but the sad thing is its going to be a long time
> (if ever) before this 'problem' ceases to be. If, somehow, we could all
> seriously entertain the fact that rather than being created by a supreme
> being, that we (all life) are just a big accident, that religions are
> based on a hint of reality and a lot of myth and tribal behaviour, and when
> we die, we just die (and don't end up at the feet of god), then I suspect we
> could relate to each other and the world around us with so much more respect
> and responsibility. And that is something the world needs, especially now...
>
> Sigh...
Indeed. A couple of weeks ago, Larry King had four "religious leaders" on his
show. A caller (from Texas) suggested that they should solve this problem
spiritually. Seemed like a good idea to everyone but the Christian, Moslem, and
Jew, all of whom bridled at the idea of someone suggesting what they should
"believe," and the Christian immediately insisted HIS way is THE ONLY WAY to
God. Then, he seemed almost embarrassed by what he'd said, but didn't back off
in the least. It's a tough nut to crack, there's somewhat of a paradox created
by the idea of granting freedom of religion, and telling someone you aren't
allowed to espouse your particular faith as the only "correct" one. OTOH, strict
atheism wouldn't accomplish anything positive either, since some people (most)
are incapable of behaving morally without a "crutch." Personally, I hold with no
organized religion's idea of God, but I don't buy atheism, either. I'm agnostic,
and I think that concept, the one that says "we can't know," could be used to
temper organized religion. For example, in front of an international tribunal,
not one of these zealots could PROVE their belief system is "the correct one."
By the same token, no one could prove them wrong either, but that should allow
for any belief system that simply upholds basic and essential human rights. It
COULD work... It's way past time to stop relying on history to determine who has
a right to what and start relying on the present to point out the overtly obvious
fact that something is definitely wrong with previous guidance.
Regards,
...z
>
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:10:49 -0700
> From: "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@...>
> Subject: Re: Will there ever be peace
>
> > The rallying cries for Israel and Jews around the world, regarding the
> > mass deaths of WWII, is "never again, never again." I've heard that for
> > years. However, when it was happening again with death camps in Croatia,
> > Bosnia, Cambodia, etc - where were the Jews, who should understand the >
> pain, when this was going on? I guess "Never again" only means "Never
> > again if Jews are involved - anyone else, screw em."
> >
>
> I'm not weighing in on any side, but just as an interesting personal
> experience, when the US plane was downed over Scotland, a guy I worked for
> who was Jewish seriously advocated rounding up all the Arabs in the United
> States and putting them in camps. He saw no irony in his comments (not that
> I challenged him, he wasn't particularly rationale on the point). I always
> found this a bit scary and interesting, though I'm by no means generalizing
> this beyond him - but it does show how some people certainly don't learn.
We need to find the fucker that invented fences and hang... Wait, that would
make me a cattleman. Never mind. ;)
>
>
> Original Message:
> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:12:50 -0700
> From: "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: fwd ... Holy Lands
>
> > being foolish. That stuff is coming from THIS country, IMO. The white
> > supremacists want to bring down the government more than bin Laden,
> > they're total anarchists. They're for the most part, Christian
>
> They are NOT anarchists. Fascists maybe, or maybe racists who believe in
> democracy for a privileged few, but not anarchists.
Most of the white supremacist propaganda I've seen advocates no government. They
don't need it if they all think alike, apparently. That makes them anarchists.
I must admit to limited exposure, and your scenario is by no means eliminated
from the realm of possibilities. OTOH, I don't want any more exposure than I've
already had, either. :)
Regards,
...z
The latest survey shows that 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the world's
population.
-- =---Don't tolerate intolerance! Support freedom and human rights!---= --
L.G. "Zeek" Duff
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