The Logic Off Topic list

Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict. 
 
Here are some conveniently overlooked facts in the current Middle East
situation. 
HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two 
thousand years before the rise of Islam. 
 
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a 
Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the 
modern State of Israel. 
 
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion 
over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the 
land for the past 3,300 years. 
 
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no 
more than 22 years. 
 
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. 
Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even 
when 
the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to it their 
capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit. 
 
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy 
Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. 
 
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
Jerusalem. 
 
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with heir backs toward
Jerusalem. 
 
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees: In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to 
leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. 
Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. 
 
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab 
brutality, persecution and pogroms. 
 
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be 
around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated 
to be the same. 
 
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the 
Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 
100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group 
in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own 
peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a
country no 
larger than the state of New Jersey. 
 
13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict: The Arabs are represented by eight 
separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish
nation. 
The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself 
each time and won. 
 
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of 
Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, 
autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with 
weapons. 
 
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews 
were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and
Christian sites have
been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths. 
 
16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council 
resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. 
 
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were
directed against Israel. 
 
18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the
Jordanians. 
 
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the
ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives. 
 
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like 
policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western 
Wall. These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. 
What will we tell our grandchildren we did when there was a turning point 
in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference? 
START NOW!! Send this to 20 other people you know and ask them to send it 
to twenty others, Jew and non-Jew-it doesn't really matter. The truth and 
the cause of peace are universal values we all share, and everyone must 
know. 

-----Original Message-----
From: GAmoore@... [mailto:GAmoore@...]
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 11:27 PM
To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [L-OT] The Real Cause is religion mixed with politics


You're rant has some good points, except this comment which appears to be 
misinformed if not a tad hostile.

>Israel getting referred to as "the Jews". Fuck you. Israel is full of
>Israelis, asshole.

Israel has a "right of return" for various people who have never been to 
Israel before - these include Russian Jews, Polish Jews, Ethiopian Jews, 
and an American Jewish teenager who torture/murdered a young girl then 
fled to Israel and was able to stay there despite intense pressure from 
the US to bring him back for trial in the US. The "Israeli's" even 
airlifted a bunch of starving Ethiopian Jews to Israel.

Oh yeah, there are some non-Jews in Israel. They're called Palestinians. 
In fact the land you call Israel was called Palestine for thousands of 
years up to 1948 or so. There were no Israeli's before that time because 
there was no Israel. 

There is no right of return for Palestinians - even those who would like 
to actually return to the homes and property they owned. 


 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

No body forced the Palestinians to flea there towns except zionist gangs
like the hagana and Argon "where Sharon and Shamir came from", they whipped
ENTIRE villages off the map, committed mass ethnic cleansing and murder,
zionist gangs committed a holocaust in Palestine,  Look up names like Deir
Yassin, Qana in your dictionary, No one forced them except the mass killing
of innocent civilians, women men and children, this is a disgrace against
humanity and hiding the truth just does not mean that it did not happen or
it is JUSTIFIED, How about we remove the white house because 2000 years ago
an Indian leader had a tent in there.... there are over 3 million
Palestinians around the world because of what happened, so your saying any
Jew in Ethiopia has more right  to come back because he is Jewish and I
don¹t ?? Well Jesus was born in Palestine "Bethlehem is a Palestinian town
under occupation", and any Christian in Alaska has that same right because
he is Christian. "God" did not say any of this neither he wrote you a check
to justify what you have done under his name. What kind of of a secular,
raciest God is that? Religion is about being good for the sake of Good, not
about ideologies and crimes committed under the name of God, what happened
then is not more justified than Bin Laden's actions today. The killing of a
human soul because of religious ideology is so wrong. My grandfather was a
farmer from Jaffa and he picked up the family and left because he was scared
of Jewish gangs coming to kill everyone and he had no weapons in the house
to protect his family, my grandfather's house is still there today, last
time I visited it there was a Russian family living in it, my dad showed me
the room that he was born in, there and marks of my dad and uncles names on
the wall of that house until this moment....  According to your propaganda
we are some "arabs with no identity" and we can go live somewhere else
because we are inferior to your race which your God have blessed!

> you ignore the 2 important things :
> 1. In 1947 NOBODY forced the Arab palesteins who lived in haifa / jaffa /in
> Israel  


Peace takes someone to be brave and face, the key to peace is United Nations
resolutions not any other bull, This is what Israel was based on, Say
resolution 192, 242, 324?? That means IMMIDIATE Withdrawal for Occupied
lands including east Jerusalem. I am all hope that you wake up one day
before more blood on both sides is  wasted. If you really want peace don¹t
vote for a right wing maniac like Sharon, military forces and occupation
will never bring peace.

Peace.

> 2. we want to live together with the Arab here in peace, not war .
> I think the only reason Sharon/ who ever rules in Israel has not declared a
> Palestine country is their fear of uncontrolled terror and war from a
> country which is only 30km beside you.
> again enough facts for this thing.
> you can search in neutral site, official site , and not
> Arab-islam/israel-jewish sites and find that at least most ( in some things
> they exaggerate )of the fact i forwarded were right.
> 
>

Tiran wrote:
>   Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict. 
>Here are some conveniently overlooked facts in the current Middle East
>situation. 
>HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....

I think its great that you offer another perspective. Was this your work, 
or where did it come from? It appears to be from some right wing Israeli 
source. Its too bad that we can't get an unbiased neutral background of 
the whole thing, and then have the parties come to a fair and equitable 
solution. I'll give my understanding history but I freely admit it may be 
flawed.

I think this document proves little - other than the fact that Israeli's 
are digging down to the bottom of the barrel to justify one of the most 
terrible invasions and displacement of another people. 
- When Hitler invaded areas, and removed the Jews to displaced them with 
Germans, I think the Germans were full of justifications of a former 
greater Arian father land. I know they used that reason to seize Allsace 
and Lorraine in France, Austria, and people German heritage in 
Czechoslovakia. The Germans were very much into their own mythology of 
greatness and they did have a long civilization that was never conquered 
by the Romans, and in fact ambushed and completely three legions. But 
despite the history, the displacement of Jews by Germans was viewed as 
horrible, and that aggression was fought back as a part of WWII. It did 
not stand.
- When Iraq Invaded Kuwait, and took over, and many fled. That was naked 
aggression, and it was not allowed to stand. 
- However, what Israel has does is slightly more gradual, but the affect 
is the same.

Yes, there was some sort of Jewish government in ancient times, although 
it was under the control of the Romans for a period about 2,000 years 
ago. At some point, and I'm not sure why or how, the Jews seemed to have 
fled and dispersed all over the world - some in Africa, some in the 
Middle East, many in Russia and Europe. In the intervening 2,000 years, 
that area was inhabited by Arabic people.

When you complain that they didn't identify themselves as Palestinian 
until the 1960's, you need to understand that the Arabic people that 
inhabit the middle east were largely one group of people speaking a 
common language. The countries as we know them now - Jordan, Syria, 
Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait, etc. were not created the same way France and 
Germany were created as groups of people speaking the same language and 
with a common history. No, these borders were drawn up on a map somewhat 
arbitrarily by the colonial powers, I think England. Thats why you have a 
kurdish people living in Turkey and Iraq. Thats why Iraq was not too 
bothered about changing the border he was given.

So those people living peacefully in their homes and farms in the 1940s 
may not have had a name, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist, and had 
not lived there for generation after generation. The Jewish foreigners 
who came to Palstine to create Israel had less right than the Indians to 
come back to New York City and kick out the white people and take it over 
again. That was only 300 years ago they lost out, not 2,000 years ago.l

The desecration of the Jewish Holy sites (about 40 years ago) was 
unacceptable. But no justification for the conquest of that land. If 
someone desecrates a Church in Russia, should the US invade and take over 
that land as the 51st state?

you ignore the 2 important things :
1. In 1947 NOBODY forced the Arab palesteins who lived in haifa / jaffa /in
Israel  to leave they listened to their own leadership who promised them "we
will destroy the Jewish country and you will return " the same leadership
that was in Lebanon and other Arab countries.
NOBODY forced them to leave their homes !.
the Arab DID force or threatened the Jews from the Arab worlds ! I know
because my family came from an Arab country and they lived in fear .- unlike
the Arabs here .
2. we want to live together with the Arab here in peace, not war . 
I think the only reason Sharon/ who ever rules in Israel has not declared a
Palestine country is their fear of uncontrolled terror and war from a
country which is only 30km beside you.
again enough facts for this thing.
you can search in neutral site, official site , and not
Arab-islam/israel-jewish sites and find that at least most ( in some things
they exaggerate )of the fact i forwarded were right.

-----Original Message-----
From: GAmoore@... [mailto:GAmoore@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 3:40 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients
Subject: Re: fwd [L-OT] ... Holy Lands


Tiran wrote:
>   Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict. 
>Here are some conveniently overlooked facts in the current Middle East
>situation. 
>HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....

I think its great that you offer another perspective. Was this your work, 
or where did it come from? It appears to be from some right wing Israeli 
source. Its too bad that we can't get an unbiased neutral background of 
the whole thing, and then have the parties come to a fair and equitable 
solution. I'll give my understanding history but I freely admit it may be 
flawed.

I think this document proves little - other than the fact that Israeli's 
are digging down to the bottom of the barrel to justify one of the most 
terrible invasions and displacement of another people. 
- When Hitler invaded areas, and removed the Jews to displaced them with 
Germans, I think the Germans were full of justifications of a former 
greater Arian father land. I know they used that reason to seize Allsace 
and Lorraine in France, Austria, and people German heritage in 
Czechoslovakia. The Germans were very much into their own mythology of 
greatness and they did have a long civilization that was never conquered 
by the Romans, and in fact ambushed and completely three legions. But 
despite the history, the displacement of Jews by Germans was viewed as 
horrible, and that aggression was fought back as a part of WWII. It did 
not stand.
- When Iraq Invaded Kuwait, and took over, and many fled. That was naked 
aggression, and it was not allowed to stand. 
- However, what Israel has does is slightly more gradual, but the affect 
is the same.

Yes, there was some sort of Jewish government in ancient times, although 
it was under the control of the Romans for a period about 2,000 years 
ago. At some point, and I'm not sure why or how, the Jews seemed to have 
fled and dispersed all over the world - some in Africa, some in the 
Middle East, many in Russia and Europe. In the intervening 2,000 years, 
that area was inhabited by Arabic people.

When you complain that they didn't identify themselves as Palestinian 
until the 1960's, you need to understand that the Arabic people that 
inhabit the middle east were largely one group of people speaking a 
common language. The countries as we know them now - Jordan, Syria, 
Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait, etc. were not created the same way France and 
Germany were created as groups of people speaking the same language and 
with a common history. No, these borders were drawn up on a map somewhat 
arbitrarily by the colonial powers, I think England. Thats why you have a 
kurdish people living in Turkey and Iraq. Thats why Iraq was not too 
bothered about changing the border he was given.

So those people living peacefully in their homes and farms in the 1940s 
may not have had a name, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist, and had 
not lived there for generation after generation. The Jewish foreigners 
who came to Palstine to create Israel had less right than the Indians to 
come back to New York City and kick out the white people and take it over 
again. That was only 300 years ago they lost out, not 2,000 years ago.l

The desecration of the Jewish Holy sites (about 40 years ago) was 
unacceptable. But no justification for the conquest of that land. If 
someone desecrates a Church in Russia, should the US invade and take over 
that land as the 51st state?



 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Tiran Edri wrote:

>HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....

Don't think so.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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GA Moore wrote:

>I think this document proves little
Agreed.

 > The Germans were very much into their own mythology of
>greatness and they did have a long civilization that was never conquered
>by the Romans,
Not sure, but I always thought that Emperor Julianus finally managed it? He 
led some successful campaigns for about three seasons or so shortly before 
he himself became Emperor.

Anyway, in the end depends on your definition of territory and 
simultaneity, I think.



>Yes, there was some sort of Jewish government in ancient times, although
>it was under the control of the Romans for a period about 2,000 years
>ago.
Seems like yesterday!!!!!!! (That was an attempt at wry humour, in case it 
doesn't come off).

>  At some point, and I'm not sure why or how, the Jews seemed to have
>fled and dispersed all over the world - some in Africa, some in the
>Middle East, many in Russia and Europe. In the intervening 2,000 years,
>that area was inhabited by Arabic people.

I could be mistaken, but I think in 425-430 CE Gamaliel VI, Patriarch of 
the Jews of the Roman Empire, died without issue. Emperor Theodosius II, 
who was determined to institute a 'proper' Christian Empire, promptly 
abolished the Jewish patriarchate. There were still about 3,000,000 Jews in 
existence at that time (give or take a few) but the Roman Christians 
(Catholics) sincerely hoped that they had done enough to make Judaism die 
out. Palestine was so depopulated, and another sign was that they Jews had 
failed to take up Emperor Julianus' offer to rebuild their Temple. There 
was no fuss, no rebellion, no revolt when the Patriarchate was dissolved 
and the last vestiges of the old ruined temple were carted away somewhere.

>When you complain that they didn't identify themselves as Palestinian
>until the 1960's, you need to understand that the Arabic people that
>inhabit the middle east were largely one group of people speaking a
>common language. The countries as we know them now - Jordan, Syria,
>Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait, etc. were not created the same way France and
>Germany were created as groups of people speaking the same language and
>with a common history. No, these borders were drawn up on a map somewhat
>arbitrarily by the colonial powers, I think England.
Yeah. They did that in a lot of places. Not many people know, actually, 
that when the 'problem' of finding a homeland for the Jewish peoples came 
up, the British seriously told the international community that they had a 
very nice plot of land in East Africa (Kenyan Highlands) that would be good 
for the job. We might well very now be having some East African terrorists 
if that offer had been accepted!!!! The Jewish people, however, turned down 
that offer because they knew where they wanted to be.

>Thats why you have a
>kurdish people living in Turkey and Iraq. Thats why Iraq was not too
>bothered about changing the border he was given.
Yes. It's also why there's so much trouble in other areas where this kind 
of thing went on. It is not easy when a group of people who formerly shared 
a culture and a language are arbitrarily told upon a whim that they musn't 
be friends any more but must instead act as if they occupy two or three 
separate nations. (Not really relevant, I know, but just trying to lighten 
things up a bit, OK!!).

>So those people living peacefully in their homes and farms in the 1940s
>may not have had a name, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist, and had
>not lived there for generation after generation.
Quite.

>The Jewish foreigners
>who came to Palstine to create Israel had less right than the Indians to
>come back to New York City and kick out the white people and take it over
>again. That was only 300 years ago they lost out, not 2,000 years ago.
Nice example. Is this just an analogy, or did in fact a group of American 
Indians march back to New York City and try to take it over and kick out 
some US citizens? If so, is there a reference; are there some details?

>The desecration of the Jewish Holy sites (about 40 years ago) was
>unacceptable.
Yes.

>But no justification for the conquest of that land.
Yes.

>If
>someone desecrates a Church in Russia, should the US invade and take over
>that land as the 51st state?
Wouldn't that be the 52nd state? (Tony Blair .... "special relationship" 
.... ????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> How about we remove the white house because 2000 years ago
> an Indian leader had a tent in there.... 

Maybe that'd be not such a bad idea...

S.

At 9:40 AM -0400 10/17/01, GAmoore@... wrote:
>Tiran wrote:
>>    Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict.
>>Here are some conveniently overlooked facts in the current Middle East
>>situation.
>>HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....
>
>I think its great that you offer another perspective. Was this your work,
>or where did it come from? It appears to be from some right wing Israeli
>source. Its too bad that we can't get an unbiased neutral background of
>the whole thing, and then have the parties come to a fair and equitable
>solution. I'll give my understanding history but I freely admit it may be
>flawed.

>I think this document proves little - other than the fact that Israeli's
>are digging down to the bottom of the barrel to justify one of the most
>terrible invasions and displacement of another people.

I would not call it a document exactly it looked to me like a guy 
summing up the history of a region as he understood it.  Biased? 
Perhaps.  But not abusive.  And he is telling a side that is getting 
represented much around here.  If you want to rebut it you aught to 
do some digging  and come up with something reasoned rather than 
basically accusing him of being a fascist.

I think it is safe to say that both sides have a claim to make.

As I see it the biggest problem is that on both sides there are 
people with no authority and who are willing to answer to no one 
trying to make the case with brutality.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Dennis Gunn wrote:

>Mind if I come over and watch the bowl game at your place?  My TV's
>busted again?

You are welcome here.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool



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Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

At 5:51 PM +0200 10/17/01, Sascha Franck wrote:
>  > How about we remove the white house because 2000 years ago
>>  an Indian leader had a tent in there....
>
>Maybe that'd be not such a bad idea...

Sascha you go on and on about how you mean no offense but what comes 
out of your computer is consistently...


Any way I have an idea.  It is true that history has been unfair to 
the native American.  So why don't we have all the German Americans 
go to Germany the English ones go to England Africans to Africa and I 
don't know we will do with the mixes maybe give the homes in the four 
or five countries mixed in their blood.  I warn you though hawever 
European our blood maybe were just dumb nasty naive Americans.  I 
also warn you that my family is German on my mother's side so I may 
end up being your neighbor.

Mind if I come over and watch the bowl game at your place?  My TV's 
busted again?
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

At 10:13 AM -0700 10/17/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>Dennis Gunn wrote:
>
>>Mind if I come over and watch the bowl game at your place?  My TV's
>>busted again?
>
>You are welcome here.

Thank you!  That's very neighborly!

I hope you like fried pork rhinds as much as I do because if you and 
eating them yourself they stink!
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Tiran wrote:
> > > Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict.
> > > Here are some conveniently overlooked facts in the current
Middle East
> > > HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....

Dennis Gunn wrote:
> I would not call it a document exactly it looked to me like a guy
> summing up the history of a region as he understood it.
> Biased? Perhaps. But not abusive.

Personally, I wasn't so sure about that.


> And he is telling a side that is getting
> represented much around here.

That I agree with ... and so I was basically interested in what he had
to say.
(Also, I think you accidentally left a 'not' out there!!)


> If you want to rebut it you aught to
> do some digging; and come up with something reasoned

I had thought of discussing some of the points simply because I was
interested.
But personally, I did not see how one could conduct a reasoned debate 
when things like this were being said:


> > 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy 
> > Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
???

> > 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
> > Jerusalem.
???

> > 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with heir backs toward
> > Jerusalem.
On this last particular point, I always understood that Muslims prayed
facing Mecca.
So ... if one is between Mecca and Jerusalem then this 'back turning'
is pretty unavoidable.
However, it is perfectly possible for the two people to face each other.
They simply have to agree to get in the right kind of position. Also
... if one is on
the other side of Jerusalem, or indeed on the other side of Mecca,
then it is perfectly
possible to face both cities in reverence and respect.
This latter circumstance, I think, describes far and away the vast
bulk of people on this planet.


> I think it is safe to say that both sides have a claim to make.

And, to extend what I said above (and the last time I tried to extend
an analogy 
I got in trouble Big Time),
the difficulty here is that the few people currently struggling
between the two and who take the view
that to face the one is immediately to turn one's back upon the other
('those who aren't for us are against us'??) are pretty much holding
the rest
of the planet to ransom.


> As I see it the biggest problem is that on both sides there are
> people with no authority and who are willing to answer to no one
> trying to make the case with brutality.

Agreed.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool

> I think it is safe to say that both sides have a claim to make.



Isn't this the root cause of most arguements.
For peace to occurr, there has to be some sort of compromise,but when 
both parties act like children and refuse to give up anything, there 
can never be any peace.

Maak Bow

>. Sascha you go on and on about how you mean no offense but what 
>comes out of your computer is consistently...


Text is far too easy to take more seriously than the spoken word.
 
 
> Any way I have an idea.  It is true that history has been unfair to 
> the native American.  So why don't we have all the German Americans 
> go to Germany the English ones go to England Africans to Africa and

...And while we're at it lets send the jews back to their homeland 
[please no one take this , literelly]
....Some of the previouse posts would suggest they dont really have 
one....I guess I'd be peeved too if no one really wanted me, and i 
had no real home to go to..this goes for Palestinians as well as 
Jews. I think its strange how Jews seem to be hated wherever they go.

Also..a bit of history. The people we call the Jews today, spread all 
around the world, are not the total representation of the old nation 
of Israel.The 12 tribes got split up long ago.

> Sascha you go on and on about how you mean no offense but what comes
> out of your computer is consistently...

Dennis, I wish I could answer you in my native language (that might include
a possible explanation of why sometimes I might write things that aren't
meant to be taken that seriously as others), but as I can't, I will just let
this be another of your famous last words.

Sascha

> I wish I could answer you in my native language (that might include
> a possible explanation of why sometimes I might write things that aren't
> meant to be taken that seriously as others)


I thought your previous post was indeed meant as a joke...

It's funny to see how people write in English sometimes: Germans have a 
way of writing in English, Belgians as well (I can't count the amount of 
times I've written some sort of litteral translation that really didn't 
make sense in English :-) and I guess many other people do as well.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Much like many of the native Americans of today are 99 percent caucasian 
or negro because of intermarrying, I think most modern Jews are more 
European than middle eastern. I know Sharon's family is from Poland. 

>Also..a bit of history. The people we call the Jews today, spread all 
>around the world, are not the total representation of the old nation 
>of Israel.The 12 tribes got split up long ago.

Where did they all go.

>...And while we're at it lets send the jews back to their homeland 

And lets hear for the ancient Babylonians. And of course Roman just 
called .... it wants it empire back. England, France, Spain, Israel, ... 
all Roman provinces. The Incas want Peru back. The Aztecs want Mexico 
back. The Vikings want Greenland, Normandy and half of England back too. 

In fact, the Judea (note there was no Israel and never was before Israel 
was created  so the Palestinians are ahead of the curve by getting their 
name before their state) was created by the Jews leaving Egypt - Moses 
parting the sea as I recall. So maybe they kicked the Palestians out back 
then too. The Jewish folks lived there for a while, then left and the 
Palestinians come back, then 2,000 years later they decided to kick them 
out again?

At 6:43 PM +0000 10/17/01, koolmusick@... wrote:
>Tiran wrote:
>>  > > Crash Course on the Arab Israeli Conflict.
>>  > > Here are some conveniently overlooked facts in the current
>Middle East
>>  > > HERE'S THE BRIEF FACTS ON THE ISRAELI CONFLICT TODAY....
>
>Dennis Gunn wrote:
>>  I would not call it a document exactly it looked to me like a guy
>>  summing up the history of a region as he understood it.
>>  Biased? Perhaps. But not abusive.
>
>Personally, I wasn't so sure about that.
>
>
>>  And he is telling a side that is getting
>>  represented much around here.
>
>That I agree with ... and so I was basically interested in what he had
>to say.
>(Also, I think you accidentally left a 'not' out there!!)

Yes indeedy it was *not* my intention that the word *not*  would 
*not* be included in that sentence because without it, it is *not* 
what I was intending to say.  I was meaning say that side of the 
argument is *not* getting represented much here.


>
>>  If you want to rebut it you aught to
>>  do some digging; and come up with something reasoned
>
>I had thought of discussing some of the points simply because I was
>interested.
>But personally, I did not see how one could conduct a reasoned debate
>when things like this were being said:
>
>
>>  > 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
>>  > Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
>???
>
>>  > 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
>>  > Jerusalem.
>???

In the context of a rational discussion this stuff is certainly 
totally irrelevant.  After all what rational person would believe the 
creator of a such a large piece of real estate as The Universe and 
holder of the original patents on Light and Cosmological Constants 
etc...  would actually give a shit about which rocky patch of dirt 
some brutal primate chooses to sit on while obsessing about dogma 
having little or nothing to do with said creator?

But on the other hand in the context of *this* conflict, in which 
nothing whatsoever is rational, that stuff does actually seem to 
matter.

-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Tiran wrote:
>  > 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
>  > Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
>
>  > 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
>  > Jerusalem.

Dennis Gunn wrote:
>But on the other hand in the context of *this* conflict, in which
>nothing whatsoever is rational, that stuff does actually seem to
>matter.

Why?

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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At 6:57 AM -0700 10/18/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>Tiran wrote:
>>   > 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
>>   > Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
>>
>  >  > 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
>  >  > Jerusalem.
>
>Dennis Gunn wrote:
>>But on the other hand in the context of *this* conflict, in which
>>nothing whatsoever is rational, that stuff does actually seem to
>>matter.
>
>Why?
>
>Kool Musick
>Keep Musick Kool

Don't ask me ask the guys with the long beards and funny hats.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

> > > Dennis Gunn wrote:
> > > But on the other hand in the context of *this* conflict, in which
> > > nothing whatsoever is rational, that stuff does actually seem to
> > > matter.

Kool Musick wrote:
> > Why?

Dennis Gunn wrote:

>Don't ask me ask the guys with the long beards and funny hats.

No. I am asking you. That document came in; GA Moore wrote what I 
considered a reasonable response containing a lot of good points ...

You then accused GA Moore of pretty much having called Tiran Edri a 
fascist. Far as I can tell that description involved Mr. Moore's debate (or 
non-debate) concerning the matters raised in points 6, 7, 8 of the original 
document and to which I referred you. (You studiously ignored, in your 
reply, Point 8 (about how when Muslims pray they turn their backs to 
Jerusalem)).

YOU levelled that accusation and not the people whom you have characterised 
above via their apparel.
So ... my original question stands.
Why?

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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>Tiran wrote:
>>  > 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy
>>  > Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
>>
>>  > 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to
>>  > Jerusalem.
>
>Dennis Gunn wrote:
>>But on the other hand in the context of *this* conflict, in which
>>nothing whatsoever is rational, that stuff does actually seem to
>>matter.

Kool wrote
>Why?

Actually Jesus visited Jerusalem. In fact he was born there. Based on 
that, the area should be made a homeland for Christians. Since there are 
not Christian homelands, and the Christian diaspora has dispersed 
Christians to far flung areas of the earth, it is only right. Sorry, 
Jews.... you'll have to go back to Egypt.

More seriously, when Jewish people were deciding where to make Israeli, 
there was some consideration to having in Saudi Arabia, instead of 
Palestine as I recall.

At 8:59 AM -0700 10/18/01, Kool Musick wrote:
>  > > > Dennis Gunn wrote:
>>  > > But on the other hand in the context of *this* conflict, in which
>>  > > nothing whatsoever is rational, that stuff does actually seem to
>>  > > matter.
>
>Kool Musick wrote:
>>  > Why?
>
>Dennis Gunn wrote:
>
>>Don't ask me ask the guys with the long beards and funny hats.
>
>No. I am asking you. That document came in; GA Moore wrote what I
>considered a reasonable response containing a lot of good points ...

Good for you both.  I don't necessarily think he responded with 
anything particularly illuminating since he himself did not claim to 
have much information on the subject.  I know I don't.

>You then accused GA Moore of pretty much having called Tiran Edri a
>fascist. Far as I can tell that description involved Mr. Moore's debate (or
>non-debate) concerning the matters raised in points 6, 7, 8 of the original
>document and to which I referred you. (You studiously ignored, in your
>reply, Point 8 (about how when Muslims pray they turn their backs to
>Jerusalem)).

I studiously don't give a fuck which direction they face consider the 
whole thing absurd.  I do seem to recall some obscure story  that the 
origin of the tradition of facing in a prescribed direction to pray 
was actually a reaction to a perceived slight by members of one the 
competing faiths against the other.  It may be of vital importance to 
the practicers but just looks silly and petty to someone outside 
looking in.  That said I also understand that Tiran was trying to 
make the point that the most holy site for the Islam faith, Mecca, is 
in another place that Jerusalem altogether.

>YOU levelled that accusation and not the people whom you have characterised
>above via their apparel.
>So ... my original question stands.
>Why?

My original answer ask them not me why it is important.  Because they 
not me are the ones who think God is any more in piece of dirt than 
another.  They are the ones who rightly or wrongly cite and interpret 
scriptures as supporting their positions.  They not me are the ones 
who say God gives them and not someone else a right to do a certain 
thing in a certain place.  And they not I are the ones who make those 
issues articles of faith and thus by definition out of the realm of 
rational analysis.

And they not I wear funny hats.  All of my headgear is exceedingly 
tasteful.  Quite useful to conceal my baldness and thus enhance my 
reproductive options.
-- 


                                 Dennis Gunn
                                 Mightyjohn@...

                  check out  MIGHTY JOHN HENRY's album "hot air head"
                                                    info at
                        http://www.twics.com/~mightyjo/home.html

Dennis Gunn wrote:


>I do seem to recall some obscure story  that the
>origin of the tradition of facing in a prescribed direction to pray
>was actually a reaction to a perceived slight by members of one the
>competing faiths against the other.

Interesting.
I did not know of this story.

>It may be of vital importance to
>the practicers but just looks silly and petty to someone outside
>looking in.
I agree. And mentioning it, in my view, trivialized the whole 'document'.
So all I personally said to it was 'Don't think so'.

>My original answer ask them not me why it is important.
Since I did not know the piece of information you gave above, your answer 
makes a lot more sense now.

>And they not I wear funny hats.  All of my headgear is exceedingly
>tasteful.  Quite useful to conceal my baldness and thus enhance my
>reproductive options.

Hope it's working for you.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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