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ground troops/ british bands

ground troops/ british bands

2001-11-01 by John Matthews

Ground Troops:-

"The US has simply got to quit screwing around and send ground troops in
number. Take over regions, bring food and shelter. "

Nice idea, and I'm sure the US and we Brits would invade with all the best
of intentions and humanity and care  for the local population- and try our
best to kill only the bad guys, but unfortunately muslin extreemists will
see it as yet more invasion of a "holy"
(VERY HOLY under a B52 :-)  ) Islamic country ,however well intentioned the
invasion is. You are likely to see volunteers from all over the world going
to Afghanistan to fight for "Islam". They've even been leaving Britain to go
and fight for Islam now. Cannon fodder they are.

Its the hard core battle hardened Taliban warriors that will be the real
problem for US/UK ground troops (I heard the SAS have been on the ground for
weeks now).

Public opinion will weaken in the US when body bags go home by the thousand.
This war wont be the short liberation of Kuwait.

Think Vietnam, think Korea, think more terrorist attacks on the USA.

on the other hand- what can we do?? There seems no alternative to being
sucked into a bloody and drawn out war.

British Bands

I saw an excellent band in my local live music pub last Friday- called the
Electric Experience (yes, very Hendrix influenced)- they finished their set
with "Keep on Rocking in the Free World" and thats about all we as musicians
can do. I agree about the poor state of the live music scene here in
Britain.

Tony Thompson also quite rightly ridiculed the class idea- which is mostly
irrelevant now.

The beatles, stones and Led Zep, Clapton, etc were all from mostly " lower
middle class" or "Skilled working class" backgrounds.

Peace to everyone, and "Keep on Rocking in the Free World"

John.

Re: [L-OT] ground troops/ british bands

2001-11-01 by Kool Musick

John Matthews wrote:

>I saw an excellent band in my local live music pub last Friday- called the
>Electric Experience (yes, very Hendrix influenced)- they finished their set
>with "Keep on Rocking in the Free World" and thats about all we as musicians
>can do.
http://www.maryport-blues.com/electric.htm
http://www.electricexp.co.uk/

>I agree about the poor state of the live music scene here in
>Britain.
Quite.


>Tony Thompson also quite rightly ridiculed the class idea- which is mostly
>irrelevant now.
Sigh.

You can ridicule it as much as you like, but one only has to go through an 
exercise of counting. I.e. actually count the number of rock bands over the 
ages, and actually count the amount of money their parents earned and then 
actually document the tax codes occupied by both themselves and their 
parents at the start of their careers. Both the BPI (British Phonographic 
Institute) and numerous studies have actually done this. The BPI was 
particularly concerned about the issue when they opened up the Brit School:
http://www.brit.croydon.sch.uk/
They particularly wanted to break away from certain perceived images and to 
make it very clear that a career in 'the music business' whether in front 
of or behind the mike, was a viable and valid career that should be 
considered by all sectors of British life.

Sociology is a science in the sense that before drawing any conclusions, a 
sociologist (including an economist) actually counts things and takes 
measurements as scientifically and accurately as possible. So ... when a 
sociologist (including an economist) says something he or she tries to do 
so based on the evidence collected from the real world and not just by 
vaguely extrapolating in an armchair kind of way from wishy-washy notions 
such as 'elasticity' and 'strong economy' or anything else. Some evidence 
is required or the conclusion isn't worth anything.

And ... when one actually does some counting then the members of rock bands 
of the 60's, 70's and early 80's were disproportionately selected from 
certain given classes and sectors of British society and not from others. 
By the same process of counting, however, it began to change quite markedly 
beginning in the late 70's and early 80's to the extent that, these days, 
it is not nearly so noticeable as it was meaning that it is probably no 
longer a factor in anybody's thinking any more, explicitly or implicitly, 
when they're making a serious career choice. You are therefore correct that 
it is mostly (although not entirely) irrelevant today. But ... if you want 
to insist that it was not relevant earlier then it would be good to come up 
both with some evidence and with some alternative theory that explains the 
evidence which is that the members of rock bands and the like were 
disproportionately constituted of people whose origins were in homes where 
the median income was not only considerably less than the national average, 
but whose parents belonged to very particular given social strata as can be 
selected from the well-known collection of A1, A2, ... C1, C2 and the like.

In the end, one accepts that the data must be interpreted. And ... 
interpretation is the key.
OK.
But then ... by the principle of Occam's razor the most reasonable 
conclusion to draw is the simplest ... and this is that members of the 
lower social strata entered the music business disproportionately. But to a 
sociologist the question of WHY immediately comes to mind. Again by Occam's 
razor, a surely entirely reasonable suggestion is that they entered the 
music business disproportionately because, in general, there were less in 
the way of alternatives available as compared to those who came from homes 
where the net domestic income was higher. Do you have some other proposal?

The data exists and can be found in any library. Just look at a few tax 
tables. If you have some other explanation for these facts then please 
offer it. Just saying that the proposition is ludicrous does not explain 
the hard data which has been gathered simply by a process of counting.

>The beatles, stones and Led Zep, Clapton, etc were all from mostly " lower
>middle class" or "Skilled working class" backgrounds.
So ... what do we have here? Let me see .... "skilled working class" ... 
"lower middle class"? And then a list of some of the most famous musos in 
British music? So ... exactly how is "class" being shown to be irrelevant 
by this listing? Please notice that the people on that list you gave are 
not "upper class", "upper middle class" and the like. So ... is it or is 
not a reasonable assertion that entry into the music business was (notice 
the past tense) disproportionately (again notice the explicit reference to 
a percentage) favoured by the members of certain specific social classes?

>Peace to everyone, and "Keep on Rocking in the Free World"
Totally agreed with that. And I for one am very happy indeed that the music 
business has opened up considerably as those totally ridiculous class 
divisions are concerned ... although I really wish that something would 
happen to transform the live music scene in the UK ... and I also wish that 
the charts and radio stations would liven up a bit to reflect and celebrate 
what is in many ways an increasingly diverse UK music scene.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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BPI

2001-11-01 by Kool Musick

Sorry.
BPI is British Phonographic Industry, not Institute.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] ground troops/ british bands

2001-11-01 by GAmoore@aol.com

>The beatles, stones and Led Zep, Clapton, etc were all from mostly " lower
>middle class" or "Skilled working class" backgrounds.

Its amusing that the Beatles had this clean image but were actually from 
lower economic roots, while the Stones were midclass but cultivated a 
street tough look. I had a female friend in high school who had been a 
groupie for Led Zep and she told me they spoke of grinding poverty too. 

I think its the same in the US, except the kids want to be sports starts 
instead of musicians - more money, more girls, and no need to carry a 
tune or be creative.

Re: [L-OT] ground troops/ british bands

2001-11-02 by Mark at Enduser

> >The beatles, stones and Led Zep, Clapton, etc were all from mostly "
lower
> >middle class" or "Skilled working class" backgrounds.
>
> Its amusing that the Beatles had this clean image but were actually from
> lower economic roots, while the Stones were midclass but cultivated a
> street tough look. I had a female friend in high school who had been a
> groupie for Led Zep and she told me they spoke of grinding poverty too.

I think if you are literaly hungry then you have more of a hunger to be
successful. Simply put, most middle class people get to spend time and
piddle about with their talent experimenting, woodshedding if you like.
People with less income have a simple decision to make, experiment and
starve or play and eat. Not to discount that 'hungry' artists do not make
great art, of course they do and often more soulful, gutsier and therefore
popular than experimental artists. Often they manage to make a direct
connection to the unconcious of a nation, producing music that sounds so
right. Dont ya think?

> I think its the same in the US, except the kids want to be sports starts
> instead of musicians - more money, more girls, and no need to carry a
> tune or be creative.

I think whatever your field (excuse the pun) you can exhibit creativity,
whether it be as a painter, sculptor, poet, musician, sports person, etc.
Its a form of self-expression and requires dedication to a discipline. Of
course being dedicated to a discipline in itself is not enough, talent is
needed. When you see a footballer deftly dodging defenders and putting a
ball in the back of the net against overwhelming odds, I'd have to say (and
I cant stand football...) that that is creativity.

my two cents

--
Mark Lennox
Consultant

ENDUSER
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