The Logic Off Topic list

> No problem, I agree with you Taliban is a dark age regime, but there are
so
> many worse throughout the world "outside of the US boarders" , so focusing
> at taliban as if they are the source of all evil is wrong IMHO,and I am
> still NOT convinced that Bin Laden is the one despite all the repeating
that
> the media does everyday, he is not a duck, he is a terrorist, agreed,
people
> died agreed, but what happened to innocent until proven guilty??

Well, I don't know. I'm not sure either if he's the man behind it all. I
guess we just have to trust our governements on this...? But in interviews
he has praised the attacks, and prior to Sep. 11th he encouraged all true
Muslims to kill any American they could get their hands on. Maybe he's not
directly responsible for the attacks, but he's not innocent, if you
understand what I mean. But clearly, in your opinion he didn't do it. OK,
why is that? Something must have led your thoughts elsewhere. I understand
you have some different theories on who did it. What information has pointed
towards any other suspect? Information that outweights Bin Laden as the
prime suspect? I'd really like to know. And why is it that every one seem to
distrust the government in the first place. Do you really think they would
sacrifice the lives of 6 000 people on the alter of justice just to look
good and say, "We got the guy". And why choose a man almost impossible to
get? They have to fight a war just to get him for heavens sake. It would
have been a lot easier to point out Sadam Hussein and invade Iraq for all I
can see. But this is what I mean by Occams razor. You elliminate all the
unlikely factors and you end up with two or three possibilities, and one of
them is by 95% certainty the right assumption.

Anyway, the whole conflict is based on thoughts I for one simply can't
understand. Like the reason behind all his hatred comes out from the issue
that there are American troops in Saudi-Arabia. The problem isn't that they
are Americans, but that they are Infidels in the Holy Land. Nothing else!
It's all religious motivated, not anyone being suppressed or anything?! OK,
you have this embargo towards Iraq, which I for one find very questionable,
but that's not an issue for Bin Laden. He just lately started to use that as
a catalyst in his propaganda for true Muslims to fight in the Holy War
against the Infidels. And anyway, the embargo is ratified by the UN not the
US alone.

BTW: "Innocent until proven guilty" is a Western idea, implemented by the
ancient Romans and reimplemented in the American Constitution 15 hundred
years later, which again was a model for the French revolution, etc. It has
never been an Islamic notion, and is nowhere mentioned in the Quran
(Koran)/shadra.

These regims base all their laws and conduct upon the Koran and do you think
they would have treated you by Western laws? These guys sentence you by the
"eye for an eye" notion literally. Two, three years ago it was this mass
murderer who had raped, tortured and carved/dissected his victims. When he
was found guilty they did exactly to him as what he had done to his
victims... ...in public! Even the raping and cutting! A really happy town
gathering I'd say... OK, fair enough this man must have been a monster, but
please...!

What regime do you think we should get to first if not the Taliban? I'd
really like to know your thoughts on this one! You say there are so many
worse regimes throughout the world!

So far this has been the stupidest so called war, its been decided that
Taliban are the terrorists and that they should be removed, George Bush
needs to polish his image at the expense of millions of innocent Afghani
refugees, CNN and the western media show almost nothing from the stupid
bombing against civilians "ONE town had some cars in it, the villagers where
famous for being mechanics, so the plains bomb and destroy the whole town
because cars mean a military target for the dumb commanders", I cant believe
the so called civilized world has the mentality of barbarian revenge against
the wrong and innocent people...I am still not even convinced that Osama bin
laden did or is capable of the tragic events in New York.... Its a shame
really and watching children die and suffer so the public is happy , think
of those children in Afghanistan as yours, does this make sense, the
mentality of brutal destruction and revenge has to stop, otherwise America
will turn into another 3erd world dictatorship, were the CIA and the FBI run
everyone's life.

Can some of the americans on this list please explain in clear terms why
there are still bombing raids happening in Afghanistan? Possibly your
national media explain the reason but in the rest of the world we have been
left in the dark.

I was under the impression that the bombing raids were to destroy military
installations and more importantly runways. Has this not been achieved yet?
If not why not?

Every day that passes sees more afghani's killed ( not to mention the
refugee problem which is a different matter...). The president and
supporting nations (I'm thinking Tony Blair here) have stated on many
occassions that the war is not with muslims, nor with the afgahn people, yet
everyday more muslims and afghans are killed.

As a member of the western world I would like Gearge Bush and his supporters
(this means us...) to answer for this in some way after all this is over.
I'm not talking the hague here, simply an acknowledgement and reparations of
some description - am I way off the mark here or what is everybody elses
view on this?

I would really not like to see remarks like 'reasonable casualties' etc..
surely there is a better way? especially seeing as the taliban are moving
their installations closer to civilians and expecially red cross and red
crescent hospitals where the death toll of innocents is bound to be higher -
why play into their hands? It has been known for a long time that the
Taliban dont care whether the average afghan lives or dies. What are the
alternatives? Ground forces? Special op?


--
Mark Lennox
Consultant

ENDUSER
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylor's Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
--
e-mail : mark@...
phone  : (+353 1) 4100 665
direct : (+353 1) 4100 707
fax : (+353 1) 4100 985
web    : http://www.enduser.ie
--

I am talking about a specific incident that was only presented on al-jazeera
television, they have destroyed an entire village because there where some
cars on the screen....... Too bad the rest of the media is ignoring it

> It is a fact that the Taliban use regular old cars for their
> operations and throughout the modern history of warfare as long as
> there have been cars they have been targets for that exact reason.
> Look it up.



Bin Laden said he hates American government he did not say HE did it, Saddam
says the same thing, same goes for the KKK and the white militias in the
south.....There is no concrete evidence, unlike what the media is trying to
brain wash everybody with, I am not defending bin laden for God's sake but I
just doubt his capabilities and intelligence, I think there are other
parties, secret services/ governments involved in this, I think Bin Laden is
overblown for political reasons no more, after all if I was the president or
the CIA chief I would resign......

> If his own words have not made his intentions clear enough what would
> convince you?



I don¹t want children to be killed because "civilians casualties" are price
for the war, I don¹t think Taliban should have been the target, or the
innocent Afghanis suffering as a result of that, there are so many injustice
in the world and dictatorships supported by the free world when it suits
there needs "Musharf Good Guy Now in Pakistan is just an example", I would
not want my kids raised  there either.......
> I would not want my children raised under the Taliban.  Would you?

>> does this make sense, the
>> mentality of brutal destruction and revenge has to stop, otherwise America
>> will turn into another 3erd world dictatorship, were the CIA and the FBI run
>> everyone's life.
> 
> And your solution is?
!!! war is not the answer, do you copy!

>I am not defending bin laden for God's sake but I
>just doubt his capabilities and intelligence, I think there are other
>parties, secret services/ governments involved in this, I think Bin Laden is
>overblown for political reasons no more, after all if I was the president or
>the CIA chief I would resign......


Logicbaby,

Ever heard about Ocums razor? ;)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> No seriously, can you explain!
> >
> > Ever heard about Ocums razor? ;)

Occams razor;
"Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity", meaning the most
likely explanation is usually the right one...
Occam's razor is a well known economical term for defence of nominalism
against realism.
If a bird walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it most likely is a duck!

My point is, is it really more likely that a government or some kind of a
secret service pulled this thing off?
The whole operation succeded only beause of it share brutal simplicity. I
think a government would have over-complicated it!
...and most likely tried to get away with it without losing their lives.

This doesn't mean that I disagree with you on your other points, I just
think we shalln't loose focus on what this really is about. Namely, stop
terrorist from terrorising the world. One fact stands undisputed; those
buildings really came down, and thousands of people really died in those
terrible moments... Thats the reallity. The world is not what it used to be,
not in the US nor Afganisthan.

Anyway, the Taliban has violated every basic human rights law in the book,
towards their own people and to the world. The Taliban was in the worlds/UN
focus long before Sep. 11th! The way they treat their women alone is reason
enough to take them out. I.e. if you're an old woman without family you are
left to starve to death in the streets, women are not aloud under any
circumstances to take a job, if a woman is raped, they stone her to death
because she's unpure, etc. etc. War is a brutal thing. We have for a very
long time, at least my generation (I'm 30) been sheltered from war and
violance, but we mustn't forget that the longest period of peace in history
(in the Western World that is) didn't actually came for free. It's not more
than 50-60 years ago 52 000 000 people lost their lives so that we can have
this chat without fear and with freedom of speech etc. In the last century
alone 86 000 000 Europeans (and some Americans) was killed because of war! I
think we need to wake up and smell the coffee. There really are evil people
out there, and people really do die, and somebody really has to stop it.

Sorry, got carried away here! ;)

Regards!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Taliban are complete liars. They have said they shot down a US 
helicopter and brought the wheels - which turned out to be all they had. 
They said they captured US solidiers - again bullshit. They claim they 
know where Bin Laden is and don't know. They are completely full of shit. 
When they show a dead baby, how do we not know this came from anti 
aircraft artillery? This exact thing happened in Pearl Harbor. Some of 
the people killed were killed by the US AAA, not the Japanese.

Probably there are even dozens of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths - just as 
there were when the Taliban and Northern Alliance were fighting during 
past Ramadans. They know how to play the world press like a violin - the 
same thing Saddam Hussein did, and the same thing the North Vietnamese 
did. If we hit a missle depot, they would say we bombed a schoolyard of 
young girls. If we bombed an ammunition depot, they would say we bombed a 
hospital for the elderly. Doesn't everyone remember the "baby food 
factory" incident in Iraq where they were making the bioweapons. Not very 
buildings have hand painted signed in English with a description of the 
activities inside.

In the end, hopefully, the Afgan people will have a fair and 
representative government - one that is of their own choosing - not one 
like the Taliban which was thrust upon them at gun point.

Why are you so sure you know who are those people?!

>>> And your solution is?
> 
>> !!! war is not the answer, do you copy!
> 
> Tell it to the people hijacking our airplanes and putting anthrax in
> mail.  Do you copy.

Hi Lars and Dennis;

So I don�t repeat myself too much, here is my thoughts on this;

1-War and Bombs is not the answer the this crises, there are better means to
fight terrorism Namely SOLVING problems in the world that gives the
terrorist excuses to hide behind and play with peoples emotions.
2- There is NO concrete evidence as to who did this or who is sending antrax
mail yet.
3-Bin Laden is an extreme terrorist no argument there, but I am not
convinced that he alone was behind all this, so sending soldiers and bombers
after Taliban and millions of Afghanis does not make sense IMHO.
4-Taliban is a dark ages regime No doubt, but there are so many
dictatorships and terrorist states in the world that are considered friends
to the US. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Most of Africa, Israel.
5-Again, this goes back to foreign policies, people like Bin laden had no
excuse provided that US foreign policies in the middle east were more
balanced and NOT always blindly biased towards Israel. This answers why some
people in the middle east hate America and when some idiot like Bin Laden
teases there emotions and anger against all the injustices he is seen as a
Robin Hood. 

6-Please be careful about not generalizing this and thinking of Muslims as
your enemy, There are radicals and extremists everywhere and its easy to use
religion as a mean of justification for ones actions, that does not mean
that all Muslims believe in what Bin laden or Taliban preaches..... Do all
Christians believe in what the Church of Scientology preaches?? Or do all
Jews believe in what Zionism preaches, the answer is NO.

>Can some of the americans on this list please explain in clear terms why
>there are still bombing raids happening in Afghanistan? Possibly your
>national media explain the reason but in the rest of the world we have been
>left in the dark.

I don't know but I would guess that it would be because they are 
fighting a real war and the Taliban are not going to stop fighting 
one just because some of their stuff got blown up.  They are probably 
only going to stop when it looks like they are going to die without 
getting a chance to kill some Americans.  Recent history would seem 
to indicate that killing Americans is clearly what they want to do 
and the longer they are denied the opportunity the more pointless the 
exorcise might feel.

But why ask the Americans on the list.  The average American will 
have no more information than you and the ones that do have the more 
confidential  information are not going to be giving it out.


>I was under the impression that the bombing raids were to destroy military
>installations and more importantly runways. Has this not been achieved yet?
>If not why not?

I would guess that if the people doing it were asked they would say 
they were targeting combatants.

>I would really not like to see remarks like 'reasonable casualties' etc..
>surely there is a better way? especially seeing as the taliban are moving
>their installations closer to civilians and expecially red cross and red
>crescent hospitals where the death toll of innocents is bound to be higher -
>why play into their hands? It has been known for a long time that the
>Taliban dont care whether the average afghan lives or dies. What are the
>alternatives? Ground forces? Special op?

Even when the ground troops are in there, and nobody has ever even 
hinted that they thought the US could get away without sending some 
in, civilians are going to get killed.  So as much as I share your 
concern I do not see what the superior alternative to what they are 
doing is.  But more to the point none of us *really* know what is 
going on, and personally I am willing to be remain in the dark about 
it if doing so saves non Taliban lives.

>So far this has been the stupidest so called war, its been decided that
>Taliban are the terrorists and that they should be removed, George Bush
>needs to polish his image at the expense of millions of innocent Afghani
>refugees,

Talk about towing the party line?


>CNN and the western media show almost nothing from the stupid
>bombing against civilians "ONE town had some cars in it, the villagers where
>famous for being mechanics, so the plains bomb and destroy the whole town
>because cars mean a military target for the dumb commanders",

It is a fact that the Taliban use regular old cars for their 
operations and throughout the modern history of warfare as long as 
there have been cars they have been targets for that exact reason. 
Look it up.


>  I cant believe
>the so called civilized world has the mentality of barbarian revenge against
>the wrong and innocent people...

I guess the "so called civilized world" got upset because someone 
killed a bunch innocent people.


>I am still not even convinced that Osama bin
>laden did or is capable of the tragic events in New York....

If his own words have not made his intentions clear enough what would 
convince you?



>Its a shame
>really and watching children die and suffer so the public is happy , think
>of those children in Afghanistan as yours,

I would not want my children raised under the Taliban.  Would you?


>does this make sense, the
>mentality of brutal destruction and revenge has to stop, otherwise America
>will turn into another 3erd world dictatorship, were the CIA and the FBI run
>everyone's life.

And your solution is?

>Probably there are even dozens of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths - just as
>there were when the Taliban and Northern Alliance were fighting during
>past Ramadans. They know how to play the world press like a violin - the
>same thing Saddam Hussein did, and the same thing the North Vietnamese
>did. If we hit a missle depot, they would say we bombed a schoolyard of
>young girls.

No they wouldn't. They apparently don't let girls attend school...

>If we bombed an ammunition depot, they would say we bombed a
>hospital for the elderly.

And what would they say if US forces bombed a  hospital for the elderly?

S.

>Why are you so sure you know who are those people?!

This must be taken on faith. There can be all sorts of secret information 
available to the government that is not wise to make public. Maybe they 
have informants, maybe they have electronic surveillance, secret 
capabilitites. If they reveal those things to the public, then they will 
also be revealing those things to the terrorists. Bin Laden was already 
tipped off that the CIA was listening to his cell phone and so he stopped 
using it.

Can we trust the government 100% - in general, no. In the US, the truth 
always comes out in the end - so if its complete bullshit, Bush will be 
disgraced for the rest of history. However, this information has also 
been shared with leaders of Europe and Russia. We can't expect them to 
keep silent if there is no evidence. Tony Blair has made it very clear 
that there is an overwhellming amount of evidence.

So I think we should assume its true - but keep an eye for the complete 
and true story as it will come out in the months or years to follow. For 
example, just yesterday I heard that some of the recent terror threats 
have come from the Canadian government's surveliance. The details will 
emerge.

For now, we need to worry about how we can get out of this mess as 
quickly as possible. I just saw the news conference with the secretary of 
Defense Rumsfeld. They appear to be no big rush. However, I am concerned 
about world public opinion. Every child killed is a front page news 
headline in the Arab world - whether or not it was caused by US bombs, or 
if the Taliban parked a tank next to the kid's house and when the tank 
was boinked, the house got some shrapnel too. There was already a report 
that many of the civilian casualties in Afganistan come not from direct 
attack, but from buildings which are poorly designed and constructed 
collapsing when a bomb goes off some distance away. 

We (the US) has decided on a course of action. And now we must find a way 
to take out Bin Laden and the Taliban as quickly as possible. Then open 
the country for a broadbased democratic government, with food and 
economic aid. It may be difficult for the refugees for now. But in the 
end, the Afgan people will be more free,  healthy, safe, and prosperous 
than they were under the Taliban criminal empire

... and thats what it is. Its just like Al Capone taking over Chicago 
with guns and intmidation. The Taliban wrap themselves in the sancity of 
Islam  - but where does is say in the Koran that you finance your killing 
of innocent people around the world with heroin sales? 

The US has simply got to quit screwing around and send ground troops in 
number. Take over regions, bring food and shelter. Any Afgan who wants to 
come can come - if they surrender the AK47 and are willing to live in 
peace. Gradually expand these zones in the south and north, giving 
smaller and smaller santuary to the murderers. Set up the government. We 
don't even have to go into every cave .... just let Bin Laden and the 
various foreign Arab fighters starve to death or until they are willing 
to give up violence and live in peace with their fellow muslims.

>>If we bombed an ammunition depot, they would say we bombed a
>>hospital for the elderly.
>
>And what would they say if US forces bombed a  hospital for the elderly?

I don't believe the US would do that. I have known many members of the US 
military, and usually they are Christian and quite moral. The world has 
seen storm troopers and people laughing as they kill civilians, but that 
in general, has never been the US military. The US has tried various 
military members for unwarranted killings. 

Of course, accidents happen. When you drop a heavy load from 30,000 feet, 
it doesn't always land on a dime. In WWII, you were lucky if it hit the 
right city. 

On the other hand, the Taliban/BinLaden crew DELIBERATELY attacked 
civilians.

I really wish you would stick to sequential quoting so that I know 
which of the comments you are making refer to which quoted material.




>  > It is a fact that the Taliban use regular old cars for their
>>  operations and throughout the modern history of warfare as long as
>>  there have been cars they have been targets for that exact reason.
>>  Look it up.

>I am talking about a specific incident that was only presented on al-jazeera
>television, they have destroyed an entire village because there where some
>cars on the screen....... Too bad the rest of the media is ignoring it

Too bad there is a war.  Too bad that white skinned English speaking 
journalists are going to be seeing different things than the ones 
who's shirts and cameras and caps say "Al Jazeera".  Too bad that Al 
Jazeera can say whatever it wants and 1 billion Muslims around the 
world will not question it.  It's all too bad. But thats the way it 
is.

BTW BBC was just showing a bombed out village.  The people living 
there said the area had nothing to do with Taliban.  But there was 
one big bombed out building in the middle of everything that the 
reporter claimed was a Taliban building.  What is true?  I have no 
way of knowing.  Is the guy being interviewed really just a regular 
guy who sells pistachios at the market, or is he a Taliban official 
who worked in that big building?  Or is he both?  Where does one get 
the truth?  Are people living under a regime as notoriously brutal as 
the Taliban going to talk to a cameraman of the media from a country 
that regime is at war with and criticize them while members of that 
regime are standing around with guns?  Would the reporters from the 
BBC who were being ferried around by the Taliban be allowed to see 
anything that the Taliban does not want them to see or to talk to 
people who might say things the Taliban does not like?  What do you 
think

>  > If his own words have not made his intentions clear enough what would
>  > convince you?
>
>Bin Laden said he hates American government he did not say HE did it,

Bin laden funds camps where people are trained as terrorists and no 
one has ever denied that.  Bin laden has also said that Muslims 
should kill Americans where ever and whenever they have the 
opportunity. As white skinned man with an American accent living in 
an Asian city I don't know how else to see that but as a personal 
threat.

All my life I have been raised to respect people of other races and 
religions but when I see Muslims around the world saying that man is 
a hero it really put those principles to the test.

>Saddam
>says the same thing, same goes for the KKK and the white militias in the
>south.....There is no concrete evidence, unlike what the media is trying to
>brain wash everybody with,




>I am not defending bin laden for God's sake

hmmm.


>  but I
>just doubt his capabilities and intelligence,

Why?  He has proven very astute in many areas and the September 11 
incident was not a technological miracle.  The plan worked because of 
its simplicity.  Why do you doubt that he could have pulled it off?


>  I think there are other
>parties, secret services/ governments involved in this, I think Bin Laden is
>overblown for political reasons no more, after all if I was the president or
>the CIA chief I would resign......

Nobody has ever ruled out the involvement of other entities, that 
does not make bin laden innocent.

>
>>  I would not want my children raised under the Taliban.  Would you?

>I don't want children to be killed because "civilians casualties" are price
>for the war,

Nobody wants that.  But that is what always happens when war comes.


>I don't think Taliban should have been the target,

Why not?  The Taliban were given an opportunity even long after it 
was clear that they were involved with bin Laden and they chose a 
side.  Besides it seems that the Taliban were getting money and 
training from Bin Laden and his camps.  They are pretty tightly 
interlinked and I don't see how one could in practical terms divide 
al Qaida from the Taliban.

>or the
>innocent Afghanis suffering as a result of that, there are so many injustice
>in the world and dictatorships supported by the free world when it suits
>there needs "Musharf Good Guy Now in Pakistan is just an example", I would
>not want my kids raised  there either.......



>  > And your solution is?

>!!! war is not the answer, do you copy!

Tell it to the people hijacking our airplanes and putting anthrax in 
mail.  Do you copy.

>  >Probably there are even dozens of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths - just as
>>there were when the Taliban and Northern Alliance were fighting during
>>past Ramadans. They know how to play the world press like a violin - the
>>same thing Saddam Hussein did, and the same thing the North Vietnamese
>>did. If we hit a missle depot, they would say we bombed a schoolyard of
>>young girls.
>
>No they wouldn't. They apparently don't let girls attend school...
>
>>If we bombed an ammunition depot, they would say we bombed a
>>hospital for the elderly.
>
>And what would they say if US forces bombed a  hospital for the elderly?

They would say it was what it was because it would profit them to do 
so. And so they did and, lo and behold, the US owned up to their 
mistake.  It couldn't have been easy.