The Logic Off Topic list

Hello Kool (and anyone else out there!)

> I.m seriously beginning to think that perhaps at the bottom of this little
> exchange between us -- which is surely now getting rather pointless -- is
> maybe the fact that you've got me pegged as some ignorant American who
> desperately needs to be educated about the ways of the British. Well ...
> the Americans on this list are pretty clear by now that I ain't no American.

Whew! I'm beginning to think I should have bought a box set of emoticons
(which I note I haven't used at all where I should have done!)  instead of
the box set of cross purposes. I wasn't being entirely serious at all and
certainly didn't have you pegged as either American or ignorant. If that's
how it came across my sincere apologies. I don't have any idea where you are
from! 

As for my own pedigree, my mother's side were all staunch British
establishment-hating Irish Republicans, with her father running guns across
to 'the lads' in his younger days, while my father's background (him being
orphaned atthe age of 5) is a little more murky, with his mother at least
being from St Petersburg. I hope you'll see that with this kind of
background I find the whole area of national identity and culture absolutely
fascinating and feel very much that current UK culture, for all its faults,
does allow me to celebrate my differentness along with all the other people
in my country from diverse backgrounds. I probably overreact unconsciously
to perceived lack of understanding of the UK because I feel there is so much
to celebrate here which people should know about - so I'm sorry if I've
offended anyone on this list in the process. It amounted in my mind to no
more than gentle teasing.

Nonetheless, I feel that  at this time we all ought to be learning more
about each other and talking to as many people as possible and clearing up
as many misconceptions as possible. Even if this process is uncomfortable at
times it comes way ahead of dropping cluster bombs or sending anthrax
through the post in my book. I've just been on the phone to a Trinidadian
musician friend in London who is reading lots of Louis Farrakhan and
desperately wants to discuss all these ideas with people, which puts some of
the leftwing politicos I know (black and white) into a serious spin. But I
have to say we're both getting a lot out of sharing ideas. for the record my
own outlook is probably closest to Buddhist if you have to put it in any box
at all and I'm involved in stuff like Reiki healing. Maybe I'm weird and off
the wall, but I'm reasonably happy with it. And I do make a regular (more or
less) practice of wishing the whole world well in meditation. So I wish you
all well, her and now, without reservation.

I should also say that regard Americans (alongside West Indians) as being by
and large the most genuinely courteous individuals I have ever met.  The
problem with the US is it is so big and populous, such an all-embracing
environment of itself that the outside world has been pushed to the back
burner for too long.

My view is that British people not knowing about the outside world is
something we really have to work hard on when we have such comparatively
good access to information about other cultures.
> 
>> What I do believe is true is that the
>> English are (slowly) developing a better sense of their place in the world

> You mean apart from being the 51st state of the Union!! (That was a joke,
> OK!!)

Well, joke taken, the general infatuation of UK opinion makers and leaders
with US attitudes does seriously concern me, though I'd also be concerned if
they were infatuated with the EU or the Organisation of African States...we
need to be working out our own set of ideas, not being point man for George
W. Bush or anyone else in the diplomatic jungle.

> _I_ keep talking relative densities of blooms per acre distributed across
> the terrain while YOU keep talking the practical nitty gritty of what it
> takes to make and gather good pickable flowers. Don't see how one set of
> truths at these different scales in any way contradicts the other set. Does
> that make any better sense?!!

Well yes, my problem is basically that I'm just not interested in that kind
of big macro picture of itself, whereas you clearly are to some extent.
This comes of over exposure to politicos and regular TV documentary exposes
of  another crisis in something or other. I suppose I have a feeling when
people bring out sets of facts like that that the next step is going to be
'something must be done' because I've heard it so many times before, when to
me the answer is clear - that everything in the end comes down to the
individual and his responsibility for his own actions. My prejudice, totally
- I was reading more into what you were saying than was there.

> And ... here's the point. WHY should he have regarded his posh background
> as some inherent kind of disadvantage to him unless he'd noticed that there
> weren't very many people like him and with his background in his business?
> The music business was a haven for those struggling to do better and end up
> better than they'd started, and music was to them a viable way to do this.
> I'm not saying they were consciously trying to climb the social scale ...
> I'm just saying that they were prepared to work very hard in the music
> business to achieve results and get a viable career.

Well, here I'd have not so much to disagree with you as to suggest that he
was far more influenced by the general leftwing climate of the times, where
being working class was a little flag you could wave about to excuse all
kinds of inverted snobbery and handing over responsiblity for your life to
other people - the time I have heard described in a discussion of radical
politics as the land of 'Speaking as a' - you know, 'Speaking as a working
class feminist' 'Speaking as a gay man', being the kind of things that would
preface any speech in a competitive attempt to present the speaker's
credentials as having been done down by the system. Peter Gabriel is a nice
guy who probably came from a happy supportive home and didn't have any flag
to wave around, so felt guilty!

So, Kool - are we any closer to understanding each other here? I've just
finished an experimental remix of a Nigerian songwriter's track ahead of
time, so this string of cross purposes can't have totally used up my
energies! 

Be well

Tony Thompson

Tony Thompson wrote:

>I wasn't being entirely serious at all
LOL! OK!! I'll work upon my humour more!!!

>As for my own pedigree, my mother's side were all staunch British
>establishment-hating Irish Republicans,
Well I'm not Irish Republican but I'm with you on the rest.

>I hope you'll see that with this kind of
>background I find the whole area of national identity and culture absolutely
>fascinating and feel very much that current UK culture, for all its faults,
>does allow me to celebrate my differentness along with all the other people
>in my country from diverse backgrounds.
Good thing.

>I probably overreact unconsciously
>to perceived lack of understanding of the UK
I think so, actually!!

>because I feel there is so much
>to celebrate here which people should know about
Agreed.

>- so I'm sorry if I've
>offended anyone on this list in the process. It amounted in my mind to no
>more than gentle teasing.
Well ... I'm a British citizen and I do understand the annoyance of those 
things, but I must honestly say that that story you told about the Scottish 
Borders and about that lad's US school teacher asking whether or not that 
was 'his' castle in the photograph ... that did not read to me like 'gentle 
teasing' ... It read like you were a bit narked, actually ... and trying 
very hard to make a point. But ... maybe that was just me.

>Nonetheless, I feel that  at this time we all ought to be learning more
>about each other and talking to as many people as possible and clearing up
>as many misconceptions as possible.
Yup.

>Even if this process is uncomfortable at
>times it comes way ahead of dropping cluster bombs or sending anthrax
>through the post in my book.
Double yup.


>.. Trinidadian musician friend ... Louis Farrakhan ... Buddhist ... Reiki 
>healing. Maybe I'm weird and off
>the wall, but I'm reasonably happy with it.
Good kind of weird IMO!!!

>My view is that British people not knowing about the outside world is
>something we really have to work hard on when we have such comparatively
>good access to information about other cultures.
That much is true. Most UK citizens apparently still don't know which one's 
Belgium or Norway when confronted with a map.

>Well, joke taken, the general infatuation of UK opinion makers and leaders
>with US attitudes does seriously concern me,
Agreed

>though I'd also be concerned if
>they were infatuated with the EU
Some are

>or the Organisation of African States...
What's wrong with that!!!!! (Another joke, OK??!!!)

>we need to be working out our own set of ideas, not being point man for George
>W. Bush or anyone else in the diplomatic jungle.
Agreed.

>Well yes, my problem is basically that I'm just not interested in that kind
>of big macro picture of itself,
Nowt wrong with that.

>whereas you clearly are to some extent.
Yup.

>This comes of over exposure to politicos and regular TV documentary exposes
>of  another crisis in something or other.
No it doesn't. It comes from being interested, in a different kind of way 
from you, in the world around me. Why the put down?

>I suppose I have a feeling when
>people bring out sets of facts like that that the next step is going to be
>'something must be done'
Did I ever say anything REMOTELY like that?

>because I've heard it so many times before,
Agreed.

>when to
>me the answer is clear - that everything in the end comes down to the
>individual and his responsibility for his own actions.
That's more my way of thinking. Doesn't change my interest in the fact that 
Britain is a slowly changing society which inevitably means that the 
proportions of people doing this and that is changing. More women and 
Indian and Pakistani and Serbian MP's, musicians, doctors and everything 
else is a sign of a changing society. Personally, I applaud it. The fact 
that I like to keep my eye on the numbers and the distribution of wealth 
and power that goes with it in no way means that when I relate to someone, 
such as you, I am doing so because I have some kind of pet peeve or axe to 
grind. I'm doing my best to relate to you in the same way I do to everyone 
else. On a personal level and as a simple result of what comes up.

>My prejudice, totally
>- I was reading more into what you were saying than was there.
Oh. Should have read this bit first. Yes ... you were reading way more into 
what I said than was there.

>Well, here I'd have not so much to disagree with you as to suggest that he
>was far more influenced by the general leftwing climate of the times,
Could have been, and probably was, a mixture of both. Only Peter Gabriel 
could answer ... and even then he might not really know!!!

>where
>being working class was a little flag you could wave about to excuse all
>kinds of inverted snobbery and handing over responsiblity for your life to
>other people -
I do not approve of these kinds of excuses. Nonetheless, when e.g. I got to 
University, I couldn't help but notice how few other Africans were there. 
Obviously, I had worked very very hard to get there and I wouldn't for one 
moment want it any other way. Nevertheless, it's still IMO pretty 
ridiculous for anyone to suggest that there are no institutional obstacles 
to Africans and West Indians entering university rampant in British 
society. An example would be that ridiculous teacher who with one half of 
her brain honestly thought I'd learned my impeccable English in five hours 
flat on the plane on the way over to England with one half of her 
brain  ... but who then proceeded to treat me, with the other half of her 
brain, as if I was stupid because I simply had to be having just come over 
all fresh from the jungle.

>So, Kool - are we any closer to understanding each other here?
Yup. Basically, we're in firm and absolute agreement that the best way to 
change society is for each individual person to deal with their own lives 
and not to priss about with 'general trends' or any such guff. 
Additionally, I am interested in counting up numbers and trends whereas it 
doesn't appeal to you much. That about right? (Except, of course, for my 
subsidiary and unspoken question of trying to understand the nuts and bolts 
of where people are to get their ideas on what to do next from if it isn't 
from occasionally thinking about general principles like 'be good to your 
neighbour' and asking themselves if they've really done enough seeing as 
how things haven't changed much around them!!!)

>I've just finished an experimental remix of a Nigerian songwriter's
>  track ahead of time,
I'm curious. Who?

>  so this string of cross purposes can't have totally used up my
>energies!
OK. Next time I promise I'll try a lot harder to totally mess up your head 
and render you unable to do any work, OK!!!!!!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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