The Logic Off Topic list

I have to think about you message, there's a lot of information to spent a few hours with. I'm not opposed of artificial ways to produce music ( that,s why I use Logic). But my fear goes to the way of eliminating the human process of expression. And how can you for instance immitate a singer or a violinist. Besides this Stockhausen is working with metromome-beats like 56.25; what purpose does this serve? More will come.

Bob

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: BastoBerlin@... <BastoBerlin@...>
Aan: logic-ot@egroups.com <logic-ot@egroups.com>
Datum: vrijdag 4 augustus 2000 16:22
Onderwerp: [L-OT] European notation

>In einer eMail vom 03.08.00 21:05:07 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt 
>bhelsloot@...:
>
><< You're right about that Basto, the tools you'll use will influence your 
>musical development. Question here is: what's the best way? The things you 
>put in a program is always what you can do yourself, I only wander if you 
>should take so much trouble when every musician (performer) will do the most 
>complicated things without asking. >>
>
>... Most of the things you put in a program are things that the programmer is 
>able to _imagine_ and not necessary to do.... I mean here in terms of musical 
>performance and interpretation.
>Or what do you mean exactly?
>
>We talked about polymetric structures... I'll take a simple example... 
>L'Histoire du Soldat from Stravinsky... a piece a music that _because of our 
>notation system and the fact that it'll mostly be played under one conductor_ 
>gives really big problems to realize with satisfaction. Some parts of it have 
>quite complex polymetric structures. You can discover them when you analyse 
>the score... they are not written in a explicit way because the conductor is 
>only able to conduct - for technical and conventionnal reasons - just one 
>metric structure at the time. I would arg that concerning this particular 
>metric dimension of this music, programming a computer to in order to play it 
>will give you satisfaction to a degree you will not be able to rearch with 
>human beings. On the other side, in the case of Stravinsky, real performers 
>will take the advantage when it comes to timbres, attacks and musical 
>phrasing in general.
>
>We could imagine music having musical relevance and a high degree of temporal 
>complexity in terms of differents temporal process running at the same time. 
>What kind of solution would you propose in order to realise it, in realtime 
>or offtime?
>
>... Stockhausen.... I have a high degre of respect to Ligeti's music, not so 
>high when it comes to Stockhausen... anyway, he made a lot of very 
>interesting experiences.... like the piece Gruppen with three conductors 
>trying to coordonate three different groups of musicians playing at different 
>tempos and time signatures... a nightmare to realize.
>
>Accepting that it can exist not only technical but also artistic things where 
>the human being need the help of a artificial companion should not be so 
>difficult. Don't you think so?
>
>basto
>
>
>
>
>

In einer eMail vom 04.08.00 17:04:21 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt 
bhelsloot@...:

<< I have to think about you message, there's a lot of information to spent a 
few hours with. I'm not opposed of artificial ways to produce music ( that,s 
why I use Logic). But my fear goes to the way of eliminating the human 
process of expression. And how can you for instance immitate a singer or a 
violinist. Besides this Stockhausen is working with metromome-beats like 
56.25; what purpose does this serve? More will come. >>

I would not try to "immitate" a singer or a violinst... except as pure 
experiment in order to learn something about the instrument and the way it's 
played... I may be interest in manipulate the singer's or violinist sound and 
probably mix the result with the original music played by the performer... 
trying to achieve a result making it impossible to distinguish what is 
reality and what is virtuality.

I understand your preocuppation about expression, which I find totally 
legitimate. Concerning Stockhausen, he's a child of his time... with a strong 
obsession concerning number related structures... a more mystical approch to 
music than a rational one... as it was argued in this time.

basto

Learning about instruments is also my goal, just like you said. Wich brings me back to the start of this dicussion; you'll have to understand a lot about music in all it's aspect and traditions if you'd like to come to a good result. In a lot of music wich has come grasp of many amateurs (thanks to the computer) you can see a very poor use of musical means. I think that's ashame. Todays slogan is - everyone can do everything-, this is killing art; the results on media speak for itself. And afcourse Stockhausen was a child of its time, but don't underestimate the influence of people like him on todays art. The underlying idea of " everything can be caculated" is still there ( once I've wrote a lot of serial music by the way; incredible) and not only in music. I coulnd't find an ot-mailinglist, that's too bad.

Bob
 
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: BastoBerlin@... <BastoBerlin@aol.com>
Aan: logic-ot@egroups.com <logic-ot@egroups.com>
Datum: vrijdag 4 augustus 2000 17:49
Onderwerp: Re: [L-OT] European notation

>In einer eMail vom 04.08.00 17:04:21 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt 
>bhelsloot@...:
>
><< I have to think about you message, there's a lot of information to spent a 
>few hours with. I'm not opposed of artificial ways to produce music ( that,s 
>why I use Logic). But my fear goes to the way of eliminating the human 
>process of expression. And how can you for instance immitate a singer or a 
>violinist. Besides this Stockhausen is working with metromome-beats like 
>56.25; what purpose does this serve? More will come. >>
>
>I would not try to "immitate" a singer or a violinst... except as pure 
>experiment in order to learn something about the instrument and the way it's 
>played... I may be interest in manipulate the singer's or violinist sound and 
>probably mix the result with the original music played by the performer... 
>trying to achieve a result making it impossible to distinguish what is 
>reality and what is virtuality.
>
>I understand your preocuppation about expression, which I find totally 
>legitimate. Concerning Stockhausen, he's a child of his time... with a strong 
>obsession concerning number related structures... a more mystical approch to 
>music than a rational one... as it was argued in this time.
>
>basto
>
>
>
>
>

In einer eMail vom 05.08.00 11:56:08 (MEZ) - Mitteleurop. Sommerzeit schreibt 
bhelsloot@...:

<< Learning about instruments is also my goal, just like you said. Wich 
brings me back to the start of this dicussion; you'll have to understand a 
lot about music in all it's aspect and traditions if you'd like to come to a 
good result.>>

You're right ... even if it will always also exist people with a very 
intuitiv talent with very poor knowledge about composition technics and 
traditions able to bring new things into music art. Very often, it will be 
someone coming from an other place, with an other bakground and an other 
representation of the world with different esthetic norms.

What I mean is that computers give us a new approach to music, much more 
intuitiv. Many of my friends composers - coming from both avant-garde and 
jazz related music - would confirm that point. Some of them hat even a 
esthetic break point after starting composing in a computer supported 
environment. Music is _sound_ and not symbolic notation, even if you can 
achieve a very high level of abstract and mental representation abilities. 

<< In a lot of music wich has come grasp of many amateurs (thanks to the 
computer) you can see a very poor use of musical means. I think that's 
ashame. Todays slogan is - everyone can do everything-, this is killing art; 
the results on media speak for itself. >>

You are probably right here too... even if I really enjoy our time where 
people witout any music background can buy a synth or a sampler... built a 
homestudio... make some music... put it on a website... discuss it in a 
mailinglist... and get some fans who want to download it. You must admit that 
the possibility to bypass intutitions and music industry giants will open 
fantastic possibilities, even if it will also, of course, make music with 
very low quality available and create new marketing "rules", obviously with 
many perverse implications. But at the end, you're free to go where you want, 
and concerning medias, I do believe they will go through considerable changes 
in the coming years. Of course, I may be a very optimistic person.

<< And afcourse Stockhausen was a child of its time, but don't underestimate 
the influence of people like him on todays art. >>

I don't know if I underestimate the influence of Stockhausen... and Boulez, 
Berio, Nono... etc.... the famous 20 years composers... on todays art. With 
the exception of Ligeti and some Berio things like Aronne for example, I 
don't care about them anymore so much. I know very well the scores they 
wrote, I have read all the books they wrote. Today, I still enjoy the "enfant 
terrible" spirit that they all had it the young years. I'm smilling and find 
it amusing to see that they more or less all tried to built up solid music 
intutitions that are today more or less all obsolete and, today, I prefer to 
go down a street in Bombay and listen to a amazing tabla-player or visit some 
west african kalimba-players in a small village. My taste and interest may 
have changed and with more life experience, I'm now more concerned about 
living closer to simple things able of speaking by themselves, without any 
need of a verbal dissertation.

<<The underlying idea of " everything can be caculated" is still there ( once 
I've wrote a lot of serial music by the way; incredible) and not only in 
music.>>

Hmmm... God protect us....

... :-)... I'm joking... nice to hear that you didn't persist in this way. To 
namy tabous... isn't it? I probably would prefer your jazz oriented phase... 
:-)

Have a nice week-end.

basto