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Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-23 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

>
>
>Joeri also said:
>
>>I'm convinced it's possible to get down illegal downloading to 10% or
>>so, just like real world pirating.
>>
>10% is still a lot!!
>
10% is the percentage piracy in the real world in Western countries.

>Copyright is a fluid concept. It has not always existed. It was invented 
>for two main reasons: (1) was to protect consumers; (2) to overturn censorship.
>
and  3) to stimulate creativity (both in music, as well as pharma and 
other sectors)

>The basis of most copyright law (at least, in the West) was set out in 1710 
>with the Statute of Anne which was passed by the British Parliament. The 
>Statue of Anne broke the monopoly on publishing held by the "Worshipful 
>Company of Stationers' and Newspaper Makers".
>http://www.stationers.org/
>This was basically an organization of booksellers. Importantly, it was 
>pretty much owned and controller by the British Crown. Thus the Stationers 
>were protected from outside competition -- much like the company or 
>collective record companies are today.
>
In that time, that was the only way. If your "guild" wasn't protected by 
the crown, then it was either illegal or not trustworthy, or open for 
attacks.

>In the 300 or so years since the Statute was passed the concept of 
>copyright has been amended and extended and has also had to face the 
>problem of changing technology. Which is pretty much the case today.
>
I think the real basis of today's copyright legislation lays in the Bern 
Convention.

>Seems to me that the 'problem' with mp3 is not protecting the rights of 
>authors, but rather the claim of record companies that they and they alone 
>can adequately protect the rights of music creators. This seems to me to be 
>an extremely dubious claim to say the least, because there are other 
>methods of distributing music.
>
I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I'm currently writing my thesis on 
"Future Growth Strategies in the Music Business", and I'm writing that 
from a "majors" perspective.
The way music is ditributed etc, automatically leads to the creation of 
record companies. And once you have record companies, some will 
automatically become majors while other will remain indies. The reason 
for that is because you need a platform with a solid financial basis. 
The success rate of commercial music is 1/10. Therefore, for every 10 
million USD you invest, only 1 million will give you a return. The 
reason why people don't like the record companies, is because the return 
on that interesting million is huge, but what they mostly don't want to 
hear about, is how 9 million got "lost".

I believe that the platforms the record companies are setting up now, is 
a very good incentive and the only way forward for the industry.
There are many problems and many challenges to be faced, but in the end, 
they have no choice. Also, I believe that the AOL Time Warner approach 
might be the best for the very long term: they don't sell music, no, 
they sell an entertainment package. They want to sell an entertainment 
package opn a monthly basis for 169USD in the long run. Whether that 
amount of money is realistic, I don't know (yet), but I think the 
approach is right. Music is only one of the many possible ways to spend 
your entertainment budget, so if you can compensate losses on one side, 
with extra income on another, then you've got a stable platform of which 
everyone benefits. In that aspect, even though EMI has started a lot of 
internet incentives (they were the first major to do anything at all), I 
believe EMI will get in trouble: they are a "stand-alone" company that's 
not integrated in a media holding. There are solutions for that, and 
those solutions have to be carried out in 3 years from now, not now... 
but in the long run, they have to be carried out.

Another, more subjective reason why people dislike the majors, is 
because they have had bad experiences. In 90% of the cases though, those 
experiences were with A&R managers or product managers and were not 
related to finance or business development.

>IMO, some time very soon the concept of 'hard copy' in music (CD's, etc) 
>will have to give way to the concept of 'flow' as a viable way to collect 
>revenues from music.
>
Hard copy will always exist. People want to go shopping. That will never 
change. The percentages will differ, but the "real world shopping 
experience" is definitely not gone.

>So ... all that needs to happen, I think, is for this concept of a "flow" 
>of music to be extended out into other areas -- and ones that are likely to 
>cover the mp3 "problem".
>
And exactly here are the main problems:
* you don't have big entities anymore that pay fixed sums, instead you 
have the individual consumer
* even though a lot of people are doing research, no-one really has a 
clue when people will buy what amount of music on the internet

>I could also enroll with a specialist Internet Music Provisioner which 
>basically again gives me the right to download any songs I like.
>Providers and Provisioners would then negotiate contracts with whatever 
>artists, or else artists rights organizations, that they felt that they 
>could sell. For example, if I make jazz music, then I could enroll with 
>Jazz Creators Anonymous ... which would then, possibly, provide music for 
>any Music Provisioners that approached it. A fee is settled ... of which I 
>get a proportion. Each Provisioner and/or Creators Group would then 
>recompense those artists whose music had been downloaded, most likely as a 
>proportion of the fees collected.
>
Such models already exist. That will be the online "indies" of tomorrow. 
And although they migh work well, there is need for majors online as well.

>No way to put the genie back in the bottle. I also think that it would be a 
>lot more constructive for the music industry to come up with proposals that 
>demonstrate some kind of benefit for the consumer instead of being narrowly 
>focussed on its own self-interests, particularly when it's clear that the 
>public is not very sympathetic on this issue.
>
If people have to choose between getting something for free, or paying 
for it, it's obvious what they'll choose.
We have to make people understand why music can't be free and we have to 
come up with models that make "music" an enjoyable product that's worth 
paying for.

> Personally, I do not see the 
>benefit to the consumer of the present squabble over mp3 files and e.g. the 
>attempt to create copy proof CD's. Record companies are -- rightly -- 
>creating merry hell because an illegal COPY has been made. So ... remove 
>the copying issue. So ... let people pay for the right to hear the music of 
>their choice in the manner of their choice. It ain't all on CD. Point is 
>... people can only come by music if someone PROVIDES it to them. 
>Therefore, charge the providers. Charge them a yearly or monthly or 
>whatever 'flow' fee.
>
No offense, but this concept is too simple. A visit to a to any school 
will show e.g. that 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 buys the music and the others 
copy it. So, one of the students is the provider. Now who are you going 
to charge? The record store for selling that record? That one person who 
bought it? How are you going to charge them? How much are you going to 
charge them? At this point, piratery is hurting the music business. 
Setting up a legal system is not going to have affect for the simple 
reason that it's the end user who's copying. We have to prevent them 
from pirating music. There are ways to do that. Making it more difficult 
to copy is one way to do it, building a future platform is another way,...

>In essence, and to partly answer Dennis Gunn's and Yoonchi's questions, I 
>think this will eventually have to be done by artists. I think that only 
>artists can fight record companies, get their contracts re-interpreted 
>under law, and then set up new means of distribution for music that still 
>respect their rights as composers and recognize their creative endeavours. 
>
Why should they "fight" record companies?
Let's make a simple, not entirely correct, comparison: let's say I make 
milk. I'm a farmer who has a lot of cows and I deliver one hectoliter 
milk a year.
Why would I fight anyone in the chain who helps getting my milk to the 
consumer?

I am 100% free to deliver my milk to the public myself. I can set up my 
own little store. I can set up my own organisation with colleagues to 
deliver milk to the public or to the stores ourselves (doh, we've become 
a milk label already) etc.

The european commission has investigated the music industry 3 times 
already. We all know how tough Mario Monti & co are. 3 Times, the music 
industry's policy was approved of by the EC. People really have a wrong 
image of majors imo.

>These are ARTISTS' rights that the record companies think they have. They 
>only become record company rights when record companies sign up artists. 
>Artists can give consumers what they want
>
Sure!
-> you can go to an indie if you don't like the majors (you have lots of 
variations in indies: is Zomba still an indie? Is EMI still a major?)
-> you can go to an alternative provider
-> you can distribute etc yourself

The alternatives are there! There's a reason why 85 percent or so (I 
should look it up) of all sales is done by the majors. But the 
alternatives are there already. No-one stops anyone from using the 
alternatives. There's a reason why they're not selling 90% of the music.

> -- which is basically a much more 
>free and ready access to music then they are currently getting from record 
>companies.
>
Why do you think this? Please explain.

> Note that -- IMO, anyway -- it's record companies who are 
>claiming to best represent artists' interests. 
>

>Question: is it possible for 
>there to be music without record companies. In my view, yes.
>
Of course, see above.

> Question: is 
>it possible for there to be music without creators and players? In my view, 
>no.
>
Obviously. :-)

> Therefore, record companies are wrong if they pretend that they are 
>somehow 'important' or 'vital'.
>
They are, because of the way the business works. As I said: 1 in 10 
artists succeed commercially in some way or the other. someone has to 
carry that risk and someone has to provide the financial means to carry 
the costs of giving music a chance.

>Frankly, I don't see record companies moving on this matter in a  way that 
>is in the long-term beneficial to CONSUMERS because, frankly, what 
>consumers seem to want is anathema to what record companies want. Consumers 
>seem to want wider access to music -- and without having to buy CD's or 
>music is any other solid form to get it. But that is the way that record 
>companies survive.
>
That's how record companies survive NOW. But that's exactly what they're 
doing now: they're creating platforms to build towards the future.
Why is it, do you think, that record companies invest billions of 
dollars to build and promote PressPlay, MusicNet & co?
And hey, nothing prevents any independent artists from stepping to those 
distributors. Yes, record companies will get their share there as well, 
but then, they were the ones to set up a big platform for everyone. Do 
you mind that WalMart makes money becayse they have created the 
infrastructure where you can find everything together? I don't. You can 
as well go to a local farmer for your milk and butter and potatoes, you 
can get your meat from someone else as well etc... does the consumer 
benefit from WalMart? That's everyone's own judgement. I'm personaly 
happy distribution chains like Walmart exist, but I still have all 
alternatives if I want to use the other ways. Does my local farmer sell 
90% of all milk in a region, no... and there's a reason for it.

>So ... give consumers what they want. Give them CD-less music.
>
That's not what they want. That's one of the ways they want music. They 
als want the real world shopping experience. They want it all. :-))

> Let them 
>download music wherever and whenever they want onto whatever hardware 
>player they like.
>
Sure. From a legal platform!!! Not from Napster or not from Audiogalaxy. 
I think you agree with me that it hurts to see your own music being 
downloaded thousands of times there without you getting any compensation 
for it.

> But ... they have to download somehow and somewhere. And 
>... to get their hands on that, they have to come to artists.
>
OK, so you agree with my above statement, I assume.

> Let them pay 
>
Agreed!

And this is exactly why I think Warner will have more chances of 
surviving in the long run than EMI: Warner's music sales will be 
included in AOL Time Warner's "entertainment fee" they ask from 
consumers. EMI has to offer music as a standalone product.... and I'm 
afraid they'll lose a lot of their market share.

>Anyway ... those are my thoughts on the matter as they at present stand. 
>
Very interesting! I love this discussion as I'm currently doing a lot of 
research on these matters for my thesis.

Bye,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-23 by Joeri Vankeirsbilck

>
>
>> If the record companies cant actually prove ownership of
>>the copyrights
>>
>They don't own copyrights. That's much the point as far as I'm concerned. 
>If anyone owns copyrights then it's the original author -- who then assigns 
>it to the publisher.
>
Don't confuse different copyrights. Not all copyrights are assigned to 
the publisher. Copyrights in relation to melodies etc are assigned to 
the publisher. Copyrights related to the master tape/recording are 
assigned to record companies.

>And since the publishing company won't open up its accounts, the authors 
>don't really have any information. Nasty business.
>
In every contract I've negotiated so far, I've always included the 
option to investigate the books of companies, together with an auditing 
team that I authorize.

>>What we really need is for EVERY new artist to refuse to sign away the
>>rights to their music.
>>
>Well ... they have to concede SOME rights otherwise whoever wants to 
>promote them has no way of being recompensed for their efforts. It's just 
>what and when and how much. At the moment, it's way too much, way too soon 
>in the game, and for not enough moolah.
>
??? Record companies pay advances that are often way too high!!!
The best known case right now is Mariah Carey. So I say it's the other 
way around: the advances are too high.

>There are two sources for it's supposed existence as an ancient Chinese curse.
>
ROFL... I'm not going into this. Dunno a thing about it. :-))


Cheers,
J

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-23 by Wilson Zorn

> Copyright is a fluid concept. It has not always existed. It was invented
> for two main reasons: (1) was to protect consumers; (2) to overturn
censorship.
>
Thanks for the info, Kool, and I've also just barely started reading a book
on record bootleggers, this book in particular concentrates on the
live/broadcast/unreleased recording type of bootleggers who may be doing a
service depending upon your viewpoint (not trying to get into that debate
just differentiating as opposed to those who simply take a regular recorded
release and pirate it).  The interesting thing is how it traces the history
of copyright law in the 20th century to become a tool of the recording
industry, starting with the early attempts to stop the opera bootlegs being
produced in the 1900s (the first decade I mean).  Of course those bootlegs
were intolerable by today's standards as the technology only allowed
recordings of 2 minutes at a time, but now those are the only trace we have
of the opera at the dawn of the century.   Anyway, the origin of the
copyright law there wasn't promoted so much by the recording industry, which
of course was still figuring out how to even be an industry, but rather by
those staging live performances and the artists.  But with the rise of the
RIAA and established recording techniques, copyright law became "tweaked"
more and more to protect the industry rather than the consumer or the
artist.  The book is at
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312142897/qid=1014140429/sr=2-1/ref=
sr_2_1/002-4137411-5291234 and even from the bit I've read I'd highly
recommend if you're interested in bootlegs and such.

It also very briefly covers the earliest recorded issues around copyrights,
the reproduction of folios and such prior to the Anne statute and how those
influenced the popularization of Shakespeare and such, just a few pages but
interesting nonetheless.  It's useful I think to recall that people used to
copy works fairly freely and yet artists still made a good living (loose
definition of "good" but no different than today) and publishers published
and people consumed.  While of course I, no more than anyone else, wants to
be directly ripped off, I do think that a greater degree of legally
recognized sharing and borrowing would be good for artistry.

> However, whether or not the Statute of Anne was beneficial to authors was
> another matter. In point of fact, the benefit to authors was pretty
minimal

The other interesting thing I read was how authors weren't really highly
regarded until the end of the 19th century.  Prior people bought books based
on titles or publishers.  The concept of an author being a "star" and
"artist" is a very recent phenomenon.  I'm not saying many authors didn't
have followings and impact earlier, but among the literate population it
wasn't the phenomenon it has become.

> But then hay ... you've all got delete buttons, haven't you!!

I threw mine out with my Logic CD, do I need it????

Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-23 by Kool Musick

Kool Musick wrote:
> >Copyright is a fluid concept. It has not always existed. It was invented
> >for two main reasons: (1) was to protect consumers; (2) to overturn 
> censorship.
> >
>and  3) to stimulate creativity (both in music, as well as pharma and
>other sectors)

That's what the preamble to the Statute of Anne did in fact say. On the 
strictly legal side, however, it was not a motivating factor because you 
cannot legislate to stimulate creativity! You can, however, legislate to 
punish people who are not acting in "everyone's" interests. Of course, how 
"everyone" is defined is another matter altogether!!!

>In that time, that was the only way. If your "guild" wasn't protected by
>the crown, then it was either illegal or not trustworthy, or open for
>attacks.
True.

>I think the real basis of today's copyright legislation lays in the Bern
>Convention.
I think we're saying the same thing here. The Berne Convention is/was built 
on 'common practice' and what everyone was doing and could reasonably be 
asked to do in an international arena ... but the concept of copyright on 
which it rests really came into existence with the Statute of Anne. That's 
the historical foundation of the concept, although it's true that the 
copyright practices of today, which form the basis of international actions 
in particular, are grounded in the Berne Convention. I did not say so 
clearly enough, but I was speaking on that particular occasion to the 
historical genesis of copyright ideas and not to the underlying legal 
practice and where the teeth come from.

> >Seems to me that the 'problem' with mp3 is not protecting the rights of
> >authors, but rather the claim of record companies that they and they alone
> >can adequately protect the rights of music creators. This seems to me to be
> >an extremely dubious claim to say the least, because there are other
> >methods of distributing music.
> >
>I don't agree.
Several statements in my para so I'm not quite certain what you're not 
agreeing with.


>  As a matter of fact, I'm currently writing my thesis on
>"Future Growth Strategies in the Music Business", and I'm writing that
>from a "majors" perspective.
>The way music is ditributed etc, automatically leads to the creation of
>record companies.
Make this a more general statement. Given that "rights", copyright, is 
vested in its creator, the technological methods available in respect of 
distribution will determine the nature of the distribution agencies. I 
don't agree that the way music is distributed automatically leads to the 
creation of record companies although I do agree that it automatically 
leads to the creation of some entity or other. We have record companies 
because of the way music has been distributed in the past. Things change. 
We no longer have guilds. Could be that we no longer need record companies.

>And once you have record companies, some will
>automatically become majors while other will remain indies.
Some will be big and successful, some will be small and successful etc etc 
etc. An economic fact in any field of endeavour and therefore not specific 
to record companies.

>The reason
>for that is because you need a platform with a solid financial basis.
>The success rate of commercial music is 1/10.
This is absolutely no proof that it's the only way to do business.

>Therefore, for every 10
>million USD you invest, only 1 million will give you a return.
Once again, this is no proof that it's the only, or the best, way to do 
business.

>The
>reason why people don't like the record companies,
I do not think that much of the way in which record companies conduct their 
BUSINESS.

>is because the return
>on that interesting million is huge, but what they mostly don't want to
>hear about, is how 9 million got "lost".
I am well aware of the 9 million or so that get "lost". One of my prized 
possessions is a distribution statement I got from PRS (one of my first 
ones) from Belgium for 64 British pence presumably because some drunk DJ in 
Belgium had got nothing better to do than play one of my songs.

>I believe that the platforms the record companies are setting up now, is
>a very good incentive
I'll believe it when I see it

>and the only way forward for the industry.
Why "only"? Sometimes a completely new business model is needed. Not the 
kind of thing that's introduced by those who are going to suffer from it!!

Music publishers did not like it one bit when records came along, and they 
tried to control the emerging industry with ever more dubious schemes until 
eventually record companies -- with their new model -- basically became 
independent. Record companies found that a very good way to shut music 
publishers up was to buy them.

>There are many problems and many challenges to be faced,
Yes. Painful, sometimes.

>Also, I believe that the AOL Time Warner approach
>might be the best for the very long term:
What? Ted Turner and Mr. Stever AOL telling what movies I should watch, 
what books I should buy, and what music I should listen to while doing?

>they don't sell music, no,
>they sell an entertainment package.
And this is a good thing?

>They want to sell an entertainment
>package opn a monthly basis for 169USD in the long run.
There's no denying the convenience of it, and unfortunately it'll probably 
happen. That doesn't mean I have to accept it lightly and it also doesn't 
mean I shouldn't fight it while I can. I do NOT like this idea.

>Whether that
>amount of money is realistic, I don't know (yet), but I think the
>approach is right.
I don't think it's right. Sorry. I do not like so much power over the human 
condition and the human mind being placed in so few hands. The same people 
who make the news are the same people who are concerned with entertainment 
and the same people who are trying to sell you wallpaper. We live in times, 
now, where when a journalist goes to 'report' an a war, he or she is very 
likely to do so wearing, maybe as a stunt, a combat jacket and uniform 
belonging to the country of the people who are paying him or her. When 
Geraldo Rivera arrived in Jalalabad it was ostensibly as a reporter. He 
arrived with a gun. He said it was his intention to seek out and to 
personally kill Osama bin Laden. Rivera works for Fox News. Which is owned 
by Rupert Murdoch. Who is also busy positioning himself to sell me an 
'entertainment package'. And ... oh yes ... it was you who quoted Time 
Warner, did you not? Who are in bed with AOL? And just WHO do you think 
owns Time? With an "entertainment package" that is beamed at half the 
world? Why ... Rupert Murdoch. He got the message quicker than anyone about 
this wonderful new technology and the opportunities it created. Computers, 
linking up with satellites, linking up with wireless and television -- and 
getting musicians and journalists and authors and artists all to peddle the 
one vision that makes ...... well .... you fill in the rest.

I have to accept the REALITY of it. But that does not mean that I either 
have to enjoy it or concede the inevitability of it. I will do neither of 
these things.

>Music is only one of the many possible ways to spend
>your entertainment budget,
Yes.

>so if you can compensate losses on one side,
>with extra income on another, then you've got a stable platform of which
>everyone benefits.
Who is this 'everyone' exactly, apart from Rupert Murdoch, Bill Gates, and 
people of that ilk?

>In that aspect, even though EMI has started a lot of
>internet incentives (they were the first major to do anything at all), I
>believe EMI will get in trouble: they are a "stand-alone" company that's
>not integrated in a media holding.
Yes. It's a pity about EMI. But let's be realistic. What is advantageous 
about, say, a label like A&M being swallowed up and then shut down? The one 
hit wonders ... they benefit. The old timers like The Stones and U2 ... 
they benefit. Those who were in the middle of a career, who had had 4 or 5 
reasonable albums ... what became of them?

>Another, more subjective reason why people dislike the majors, is
>because they have had bad experiences. In 90% of the cases though, those
>experiences were with A&R managers or product managers and were not
>related to finance or business development.
Don't see how you separate these. A&R managers make decisions because they 
have to produce revenue for the company. So if you don't sell, they get rid 
of you. That leads to bad experiences for those who are got rid of. But 
it's also not what I am interested in. The issue is whether or not this is 
a good MODEL for a business, particularly in view of the changing 
technological nature of the product that is offered and its accompanying 
opportunities for democratization. When the Statute of Anne was passed, 
suddenly it wasn't just newspapers owned by the Crown or the government 
that could be published. Anyone who could afford a press could do it. And 
... anyone who owns a CD burner can make an album. The problem is not in 
the creation. It's in the distribution.

> >IMO, some time very soon the concept of 'hard copy' in music (CD's, etc)
> >will have to give way to the concept of 'flow' as a viable way to collect
> >revenues from music.
> >
>Hard copy will always exist.
I didn't say it would be abolished totally.

>People want to go shopping. That will never
>change.
I agree with this.

>  The percentages will differ,
That's what I said. And if the percentages differ then the money differs. 
And if the money differs, then those whose primary means of making money is 
the dissemination of hard copies will also suffer, and will have to change 
their modus operandi.

That's what I said..


> >So ... all that needs to happen, I think, is for this concept of a "flow"
> >of music to be extended out into other areas -- and ones that are likely to
> >cover the mp3 "problem".
> >
>And exactly here are the main problems:
>* you don't have big entities anymore that pay fixed sums, instead you
>have the individual consumer

I did not say this. What I said was that there would be a different way of 
providing music -- something like Music Provisioners but whose means of 
gaining money was not vested in their rights to be the only ones permitted 
to create CD's. Your Time Warner model is quite fine enough. I pay a Music 
Provisioner so much a year for the right to access music. That is what I said.

>* even though a lot of people are doing research, no-one really has a
>clue when people will buy what amount of music on the internet
Please Joeri ... the Internet is only ONE possible means of disseminating 
music. My public library has a ton of records and CDs that I can borrow if 
I want. How the library comes by that collection is no real concern of 
mine. Just as I can go there and borrow a book, one day I will be able to 
go there with my mp3 player, attach myself to their computer or whatever, 
and then download an album. One day I will be able to go to the 7/11 or to 
Walmart and not buy an album so much as possible hand in a media smart card 
and get another one, and maybe give them instructions what I would like 
them to put on it for me by the time I get back from the laundromat. Or I 
could even possible switch on my digital radio at a certain hour because my 
favourite digital radio station always plays the latest hip hop records at 
that time and I can download what I want through my cell phone just by 
dialling in to the right frequency.

The essential point being ... the reason that record companies exist and 
occupy the position that they do is that they are regarded, and regard 
themselves, as the sole entities through which music should be made 
available to the consumer. Record companies, however, are based on the fact 
that they make hard copy CD material copies. The day is fast coming when 
people will say "so what?" I want this for myself and I'm quite happy to 
have it on my mp3 player and backed up on my two computers ... and if ever 
it crashes I can get another copy because I am subscribed to a good 
Provider and can get it again there.

There is no NECESSITY any more, for a Mechanical Copy of the kind we are 
used to.

> >No way to put the genie back in the bottle. I also think that it would be a
> >lot more constructive for the music industry to come up with proposals that
> >demonstrate some kind of benefit for the consumer instead of being narrowly
> >focussed on its own self-interests, particularly when it's clear that the
> >public is not very sympathetic on this issue.
> >
>If people have to choose between getting something for free, or paying
>for it, it's obvious what they'll choose.
Please, Joeri, I never ONCE said anything about people getting music for 
nothing. When I switch on the radio and listen, I think I am listening to 
music for nothing but I am not. The radio station pays good money for the 
rights to broadcast music. When I stand in a lift I again think I am 
getting that music for nothing. I am not. The shop is paying good money for 
the right to put muzak in its lifts.

This is a question of who pays so that the consumer gets a benefit. Now ... 
if a gym or a university or a hotel can get a better  class of consumer 
those consumers into thinking that they are getting something for nothing, 
more fool those consumers because the hotel is PAYING for the right to have 
that music available ... a price that consumers eventually pay by the 
membership subscription. Another way that consumers pay is by having to sit 
through advertising. In England, the BBC has (or used to be so) no 
advertising. However, in order to enjoy the privilege of advertising free 
radio and television, every owner of a TV set has to pay a licence fee.

I have never said that music should not be paid for. Not once. So please 
don't put words in my mouth on this matter. Music must be paid for. It's 
just a matter of how, and how this can most benefit the consumers whilst at 
the same time enabling musicians to make a decent living. The consumer will 
pay in the end although sometimes (such as having to sit through endless 
adverts on the radio) they don't appreciate that they are paying.


>We have to make people understand why music can't be free and we have to
>come up with models that make "music" an enjoyable product that's worth
>paying for.
This is my position. However, record companies have done a VERY poor job so 
far of explaining what services they are offering and getting people to 
understand how and why music should not be free. Part of a very bad 
business model in my view. The public has a much clearer idea why 
publishing houses exist and what they get up than is the case with record 
companies, to be honest.

 > > So ... let people pay for the right to hear the music of
> >their choice in the manner of their choice. It ain't all on CD. Point is
> >... people can only come by music if someone PROVIDES it to them.
> >Therefore, charge the providers. Charge them a yearly or monthly or
> >whatever 'flow' fee.
> >
>No offense, but this concept is too simple.
The concept of making people pay for the right to buy a CD is also too 
simple. Yet ... that's the one we're all currently working to. What's the 
problem here?

>A visit to a to any school
>will show e.g. that 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 buys the music and the others
>copy it.
So ... you work out the percentages. A classic case in British law was the 
programme "Music While You Work". The BBC presented the truly ridiculous 
argument that they were doing the members of the PRS a big favour by 
broadcasting this programme. It was played in virtually every British 
factory and work place because so many tuned in. The BBC said how they were 
doing musicians a favour in popularizing this music and that if anything 
the composers should be paying the BBC and not the other way around. The 
BBC lost. Radio stations must pay to play. They pay more in popular hours 
and for popular programmes, and those whose music is earned at that time 
get a bigger 'point percentage' in the yearly distribution. There is an 
accepted scale for working out how much each unit of listening time is 
worth depending on time of day etc. Radio stations use a similar scale to 
charge advertisers. If you want to reach a good demographic at a 'good 
time' you pay a lot more to get air time.

>So, one of the students is the provider.
Not necessarily.

>  Now who are you going
>to charge?
Everybody you can.

>The record store for selling that record?
Yes. A record store is just another provider ... another way that music is 
accessed. Radio stations are perfectly well capable of estimating how many 
people are in their audience, and radio stations close down if they don't 
attract enough listeners. Just so ... one can estimate how many copies are 
made from the average CD and then just have done with it. That's what a 
record shop is charged for stocking up on CDs.

>  That one person who
>bought it?
Yes.

>How are you going to charge them?
They bought a record in a shop. Or else they stole it in which case they go 
to jail.

>How much are you going to
>charge them?
What the market will bear.

>At this point, piratery is hurting the music business.
And ... at this point piracy is rampant because the record companies will 
not allow any other methods of coming by music. That kid in the school yard 
offering to rip lots of CDs for virtually nothing is a lot less attractive 
if the newsagents or Walmart has a convenient mp3 jukebox just outside it 
that I can use. Let Walmart pay for the privilege. They can then make an 
economic decision. If they put an mp3 jukebox outside their premises, lots 
of young people will come there. Maybe ... those young people will then 
enter the store and buy something else. They'll need batteries, after all, 
for those players. They'll need memory cards. They'll need new sneakers to 
look cool. They might want to buy posters. Let Walmart work out for 
themselves if they should charge to allow people to download music, or if 
they should do for nothing. Doesn't matter as long as Walmart has paid for 
the right to have music on those mp3 servers. And we charge them what the 
market will bear bearing  in mind the target audience.

>Setting up a legal system is not going to have affect for the simple
>reason that it's the end user who's copying.
Copying. Your whole idea is based on the fact that there's only one legal 
method for coming by a song and that's by having it on a CD, with the right 
to produce and market that CD being vested in the record company. Music 
goes out on radio. It goes out on TV. It goes out in movie theatres. And 
now it's going to go out on mp3 channels as well. CD's are just another 
music stream with no more importance attached to them than any other 
stream. As with all streams, authors and musicians will charge whatever the 
market will be, and those who want to provide music to consumers will pay. 
If they want to charge their customers, fine. If not, also fine ... but as 
providers they are jolly well going to charge ME the person who wrote it.

>We have to prevent them
>from pirating music.
No we don't. We have to make it easy for people to get hold of music and in 
such a manner that illegal methods are unattractive enough to make it not 
worth people's while. This means ... making it easy for people to get hold 
of music. It's called 'piracy' when it inconveniences record companies. 
Record companies are greatly inconveniences by mp3s. Consumers are not. 
Tough luck on record companies. Time to find another way of disseminating 
music but in such a way that musicians can feed their wives and children 
and leave behind the possibility that their grandchildren can go to university.

>There are ways to do that. Making it more difficult
>to copy is one way to do it,
... sorry ... but ... making it easier to get hold of is also another way!! 
I did not say making it free. I said making mp3 files and other forms of 
digital music easier to get hold of. A different conception is needed.

>... building a future platform is another way,...
If you mean making Rupert Murdoch richer and giving Geraldo Rivera more 
money to stomp around the planet with a gun and threatening everyone he 
doesn't like then I disagree. (Nor am I saying that I approve of Osama bin 
Laden so please don't anybody write and even dare to SUGGEST that that is 
what I have implied).


>Why should [artists] they "fight" record companies?
Because record companies are not acting in the best interests either of 
artists or of consumers as far as the dissemination of digital music is 
concerned.

>Let's make a simple, not entirely correct, comparison: let's say I make
>milk.
You do not make mile. Cows do.

>I'm a farmer who has a lot of cows and I deliver one hectoliter
>milk a year.
>Why would I fight anyone in the chain who helps getting my milk to the
>consumer?
rather depends on how they recompense you, doesn't it? Just like the BBC 
tried to refuse to pay composers for transmitting songs on the radio.

>I am 100% free to deliver my milk to the public myself.
Yes. But it's not a good idea. You're probably better off farming ... as 
long as you can get paid for doing so.

>I can set up my
>own little store. I can set up my own organisation with colleagues to
>deliver milk to the public or to the stores ourselves (doh, we've become
>a milk label already) etc.
So??!!!

>The european commission has investigated the music industry 3 times
>already. We all know how tough Mario Monti & co are. 3 Times, the music
>industry's policy was approved of by the EC.
Errrr!!! So??!!!! I dare say if Rupert Murdoch was investigated, as also 
Bill Gates, in the end they would be allowed to stay in operation.

>  People really have a wrong
>image of majors imo.
Whose fault is that? Record companies have CHOSEN not to spend money on 
educating the public about what they do. The Malagasy musician Hanitra 
voluntarily spent some of her own money on music education to try to help 
people from her home village.
http://www.froots.demon.co.uk/valihahigh.html
http://www.froots.demon.co.uk/valihahigh_yr1.html
Notice that it was not her record company who did this, and so far they 
have not contributed a penny.

In Northern California, around the San Francisco / San Jose area, the 
Packard foundation made millions available in a 5-year grant because 
Packard (Hewlett-Packard) loved music and left money in his foundation for 
this purpose. All the schools in the designated counties were able to buy 
and hire instruments, hire teachers and so forth. The music industry, 
record companies, did not do this.

If record companies feel that they have a bad image then they can always 
institute an effective long-term strategy to counter that image.

> >These are ARTISTS' rights that the record companies think they have. They
> >only become record company rights when record companies sign up artists.
> >Artists can give consumers what they want
> >
>Sure!
>-> you can go to an indie if you don't like the majors (you have lots of
>variations in indies: is Zomba still an indie? Is EMI still a major?)
>-> you can go to an alternative provider
>-> you can distribute etc yourself
>
>The alternatives are there!
Not really. These are not really alternatives. All these are based on the 
current business model which has as its foundation the idea that the only 
real outlet for music is through the CD medium, which in its turn defines 
the concept of an exploitable right. It is the very idea of exploitable 
rights that surely needs examining.

That, at least, is a big part of the point I am trying to make.

>There's a reason why 85 percent or so (I
>should look it up) of all sales is done by the majors.
And ... there's a very good reason why the Chinese, Roman, Hittite and 
British Empires got so big. They killed everybody.

>  But the
>alternatives are there already. No-one stops anyone from using the
>alternatives. There's a reason why they're not selling 90% of the music.
Lack of competition comes to mind, to be honest. Constantly buying up 
anyone and anything upcoming and then dumping them when they don't "sell 
enough" comes to mind as another explanation!!


> > -- which is basically a much more
> >free and ready access to music then they are currently getting from record
> >companies.
> >
>Why do you think this? Please explain.
See above. You get signed. If you don't sell enough by your second album, 
you get dumped. Hard to build a solid career on this basis. Good luck to 
you Dido. Hope you're still there when your fifth album comes around.


> >Question: is it possible for
> >there to be music without record companies. In my view, yes.
> >
>Of course, see above.
Glad we agree. Not that I think our disagreements are that serious, by the 
way!! I'm just way more cynical, that's all, I think!!!

> > Question: is
> >it possible for there to be music without creators and players? In my view,
> >no.
> >
>Obviously. :-)
Where's that beer I promised you!!!


> > Therefore, record companies are wrong if they pretend that they are
> >somehow 'important' or 'vital'.
> >
>They are, because of the way the business works.
Excuse me ... but conceptually important is not the same as actually 
important. These days, we have mp3 files and the like. In my view, this 
means that record companies are no longer as conceptually important as they 
used to be. I do not deny their de facto economic importance in the present 
market, but the technology has really changed even in the last 5 years. 
Inevitably the industry will change slowly ... especially given that the 
LEGAL foundation of the current business gives to record companies a very 
central position. That position will have to be changed, and the legal 
foundation of record companies in so far as access to music is concerned 
also has to change. This requires either a legal challenge, or else an 
acceptance by the record companies that they need to find new ways of doing 
business. Personally, I think the former is the best way. The Statute of 
Anne, 300 years ago, really changed a few things!!

Also ... record companies are powerful enough to have LOBBYISTS. Therefore, 
whenever copyright legislation is about to be enacted, they lobby and 
campaign -- effectively -- to have the law amended in their favour. Judges 
are a bit harder to 'buy', but they try that too. Usually by hiring the 
best counsel available and so wearing down the opposition.

>As I said: 1 in 10
>artists succeed commercially in some way or the other.
Then maybe it's about time to do something about the way in which record 
companies conduct their business.

>someone has to
>carry that risk
How about those who don't make it!!

>and someone has to provide the financial means to carry
>the costs of giving music a chance.
True. All part of establishing a new business model. After all, it doesn't 
cost much to produce an mp3 file. I give it to a suitable Provisioner. I 
don't make many sales. End of discussion. Alternatively ... I make enough 
sales with my third-grade Provisioner for a second-grade one to say to me 
... we have a bigger set of distribution outlets. I say think you very much 
and negotiate with them. If things go well, one day I might be approached 
by Joeri Worldwide which is where the really big bucks are.


> >Frankly, I don't see record companies moving on this matter in a  way that
> >is in the long-term beneficial to CONSUMERS because, frankly, what
> >consumers seem to want is anathema to what record companies want. Consumers
> >seem to want wider access to music -- and without having to buy CD's or
> >music is any other solid form to get it. But that is the way that record
> >companies survive.
> >
>That's how record companies survive NOW. But that's exactly what they're
>doing now: they're creating platforms to build towards the future.
What future? A future that is built on the model which declares that once 
you've signed a contract with a record company then you have signed away 
all your rights, even those in technologies that had not been invented at 
the time the contract was written. Sorry, but I think digital rights 
require a complete re-negotiation of things, and preferably between people 
who treat each other as equals.

>Why is it, do you think, that record companies invest billions of
>dollars to build and promote PressPlay, MusicNet & co?
Because they want to hang on to what they've got for as long as they can 
... and because if Rupert Murdoch and others of that ilk can make more 
money and rule over more people that's what they will do.

>And hey, nothing prevents any independent artists from stepping to those
>distributors.
You tried to get out a contract recently?

>Yes, record companies will get their share there as well,
>but then, they were the ones to set up a big platform for everyone.
Excuse me, but I think that's where we differ. I think the essential point 
here is that John Lennon and a few others wrote some really great songs. 
Let's go back to base camp for a while.

>Do
>you mind that WalMart makes money becayse they have created the
>infrastructure where you can find everything together? I don't.
Well ... I object strenuously when they try to charge me too much. If I 
have to, I'll take it up with my Member of Parliament and get a law passed 
about what monopolies can and cannot do.

I dare say one day in the not too distant future Rupert Murdoch will also 
run foul of this.


> >So ... give consumers what they want. Give them CD-less music.
> >
>That's not what they want. That's one of the ways they want music.
To be honest, Joeri, I thought that's what I said. What I also said was 
that record companies will have to accept that they will occupy a steadily 
diminishing presence in the music dissemination business.

>  They
>als want the real world shopping experience.
I have never said otherwise.

>  They want it all. :-))
And since they are consumers ... that's exactly what they are entitled to 
... FOR A FEE.

> > Let them
> >download music wherever and whenever they want onto whatever hardware
> >player they like.
> >
>Sure. From a legal platform!!!
When did I EVER say otherwise?

>Not from Napster or not from Audiogalaxy.
Now ... what RECORD COMPANIES objected to was that RECORD COMPANIES were 
not receiving any money from Napster for the use of their product. As an 
artist, as long as I get paid, I don't care who pays me. Let Napster 
negotiate with me directly. The problem is that, at present, record 
companies are undeniably responsible for producing 100% (pretty much) of 
the music on Napster.

Please notice that the Statute of Anne did something very clever. It split 
things into two. Everything ever published up until 1710 was placed in the 
public domain. Anything released thereafter was subject to the new 
copyright provisions.  Can't do anything about all the stuff released up 
until 2002. The access of Napster to that does need to be negotiated. But 
... all the stuff released AFTER 2002 ... why should record companies be 
allowed all of that as well? That's the bit I don't get. Why can't Napster 
and other such organizations start negotiating with authors and authors' 
rights organizations about new and viable methods for the distribution of 
music? And once it's been settled what to do with NEW music, it will 
probably be settled what to do with the old.

>I think you agree with me that it hurts to see your own music being
>downloaded thousands of times there without you getting any compensation
>for it.
Yes. I have NEVER denied that this is wrong, bad, and should be stopped. 
It's the compensation bit, though, and not the records bit I'm concerned with.


>And this is exactly why I think Warner will have more chances of
>surviving in the long run than EMI: Warner's music sales will be
>included in AOL Time Warner's "entertainment fee" they ask from
>consumers. EMI has to offer music as a standalone product.... and I'm
>afraid they'll lose a lot of their market share.
We shall sell. Personally, I think they'll BOTH have to rethink their 
positions because a new legal definition of music and the dissemination of 
music is required.


>Very interesting! I love this discussion as I'm currently doing a lot of
>research on these matters for my thesis.

I'm not! And, to be honest, I can't afford to write much more like this. I 
just happened to have a day off and I really have to get on with some of 
the other things I have to do.

Please don't take it averse if I don't reply much any more!!

Kool Musick
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Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-24 by Dennis Gunn

Joeri said:

>10% is the percentage piracy in the real world in Western countries.

I think the number is not so easy to measure that anyone can be so 
confident as to exactly what it is.  I also don't agree that it will 
be possible to keep it down in that range no matter what is tried. 
Especially as broadband becomes more popular. Of course I am not so 
much talking about piracy for profit, which I think will be somewhat 
controllable because that kind of piracy requires some type of 
marketing and money exchange, but rather I am speaking of sharing and 
trading between individuals which will only become more rampant and 
more difficult to control.


>  >Seems to me that the 'problem' with mp3 is not protecting the rights of
>>authors, but rather the claim of record companies that they and they alone
>>can adequately protect the rights of music creators. This seems to me to be
>>an extremely dubious claim to say the least, because there are other
>>methods of distributing music.
>>
>I don't agree. As a matter of fact, I'm currently writing my thesis on
>"Future Growth Strategies in the Music Business", and I'm writing that
>from a "majors" perspective.


>We have to make people understand why music can't be free and we have to
>come up with models that make "music" an enjoyable product that's worth
>paying for.

Yes but how do you make them understand that when from their it can 
be, and in fact *is* free.

>No offense, but this concept is too simple. A visit to a to any school
>will show e.g. that 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 buys the music and the others
>copy it.

This is the basis for my statement above.  I don't see where your 10% 
is the piracy figure has it's basis.  People under 30 spend a larger 
fraction of their income on music than any other group and people 
under under 24 or 25 even more still and those are the very people 
that are likely to be "sharing".  I don't see how that is ever going 
to get under control.  Sharing is now easier than ever and is not 
going to become more difficult.

Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-24 by Kool Musick

Joeri wrote
>Don't confuse different copyrights.
I wasn't trying to, although I was writing in a hurry. My very point is 
that there are different kinds of copyrights. The right to distribute 
digital music is a new form of copyright, even if, as is happening at 
present, the primary form of generating those digital forms of music is in 
the producing records and CD's.

>Not all copyrights are assigned to
>the publisher.
True.

>Copyrights related to the master tape/recording are
>assigned to record companies.
And ... that's one place where one could have a good argument. Those tapes 
were produced with the INTENTION of exploiting them as the recorded sounds 
we know, namely vinyl, CD and the like. Those tapes were not produced with 
the INTENTION of exploiting them in the digital domain, because the digital 
domain was unknown, and therefore record companies are exceeding their 
brief in stating that all exploitable rights in that medium belong to them. 
As you know well, being an engineer, one has different ideas in mind when 
recording if one knows that the ultimate result is going to be an mp3 file. 
Knowing that it is going to be compressed makes a difference. That's an 
aside, however. Artists and authors have, in my view, a valid argument in 
stating that they may have signed contracts with respect to analogue 
recorded sound, but they were not also signing away rights with respect to 
the digital variety ... because they didn't exist and so they didn't know 
about them.

> >And since the publishing company won't open up its accounts, the authors
> >don't really have any information. Nasty business.
>In every contract I've negotiated so far, I've always included the
>option to investigate the books of companies, together with an auditing
>team that I authorize.

That is an option that more and more book authors are trying to avail 
themselves of, but it's a long and hard struggle. Maybe Stephen King and JK 
Rowling can do it. But ... you try getting a clause like that put in your 
contract, and your book will be stalled for months while it's argued over. 
Nasty business.

>??? Record companies pay advances that are often way too high!!!
Then they should learn to reform the way that they do business.

>The best known case right now is Mariah Carey. So I say it's the other
>way around: the advances are too high.
Mariah Carey is in it for what she can get. If record companies are stupid 
enough to pay those kinds of advances then all the more fool them. The 
original idea of an advance was to enable the artist to live while they 
produced the product. Now, if a record company is desperate to get an act, 
then it offers bigger and bigger advances in order to attract that act. Who 
pays for this? The few artists whose products sell and who make back those 
advances, that's who. Stupid if you ask me. They should find another way to 
do business. Can't think what other way, but this one's stupid.

>ROFL... I'm not going into this. Dunno a thing about it. :-))
I think that's what I should have told myself before I started this, 
actually!!!

Kool Musick
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Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-24 by Kool Musick

Hi Wilson,

Thanks for your post, and thanks for the reference to that book.


> > But then hay ... you've all got delete buttons, haven't you!!
>I threw mine out with my Logic CD, do I need it????
LOL

Kool Musick
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Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music industry has legit thieves, now?

2002-02-24 by Kool Musick

Dennis Gunn wrote:


>... but rather I am speaking of sharing and
>trading between individuals which will only become more rampant and
>more difficult to control.
Yes.


Joeri wrote:
> >We have to make people understand why music can't be free and we have to
> >come up with models that make "music" an enjoyable product that's worth
> >paying for.

Dennis Gunn wrote:
>Yes but how do you make them understand that when from their it can
>be, and in fact *is* free.

Quite.

>  People under 30 spend a larger
>fraction of their income on music than any other group and people
>under under 24 or 25 even more still and those are the very people
>that are likely to be "sharing".
Which they do not regard as THEFT. Record companies regard it as theft 
because they get nothing. If song composers can find a way of pricing their 
music so that this kind of sharing is properly or realistically accounted 
for, then they will be quite OK -- although it might be the death of record 
companies. The music business can survive the death of record companies. It 
can't survive the death of composers as a group.

>I don't see how that is ever going
>to get under control.  Sharing is now easier than ever and is not
>going to become more difficult.

Quite. It also can't be made "more difficult" -- e.g. anti-copying CD's -- 
without the loss of a very great deal of public good will. Since record 
companies don't enjoy a lot of good will in the first place, I think this 
is a pretty stupid move. Problem is, many in the general public now regard 
mp3's as "theirs" by right, and they expect to have music made available to 
them in that form. They also expect to be able to share it with their 
friends -- just like people in the 60s used to revel in 'sharing' music by 
gathering around a transistor radio and hearing the latest renditions of 
"their" music. Just accept these things as a fact of life and find a way to 
live with it. Record companies just don't seem to be prepared to do this. 
Not yet, anyway.

Kool Musick
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