The Logic Off Topic list

Yoonchi wrote:

>So now record companies are trying to cheat on the artists even more? 
>It looks like robbing to me.
>
Why?

>I'll distribute my own music, thank you.
>
A viable alternative. It remains to be seen whether it'll be succesful 
that way. It also remains to be seen whether you can live from it then. 
It also remains to be seen whether more people will be able to listen to 
your music then.


PS: I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just hope I can get interesting 
replies from you. ;-)

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>Yoonchi wrote:
> >So now record companies are trying to cheat on the artists even more?
> >It looks like robbing to me.
> >

Joeri wrote:
>Why?

Because record companies are claiming to have ownerships of certain rights 
that did not even exist when contracts were drawn up because, mainly, 
digital recording rights had not even been invented .... and they are also 
claiming that they have the absolute best method of exploiting those rights 
in the best interests of both themselves and artists.


> >I'll distribute my own music, thank you.
> >
>A viable alternative.
I don't think it's viable. How is an individual going to market / position 
themselves best in a global market?

>It remains to be seen whether it'll be succesful
>that way.
I don't think so. What's needed is a different middle agent to whom digital 
rights can be assigned, and who can come up with good ways to market those 
rights.

>It also remains to be seen whether you can live from it then.
Don't think so. Nobody at mp3.com is making enough money to raise their 
children.

>It also remains to be seen whether more people will be able to listen to
>your music then.
Don't think so either.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Joeri Vankeirsbilck wrote:
> Yoonchi wrote:
> 
> >So now record companies are trying to cheat on the artists even 
more? 
> >It looks like robbing to me.
> >
> Why?

You should read article I refered to. To summarize it: the majors 
want to decide for the artists what's best for them by distributing 
their work on the net, and paying them a ridiculous fee. In the 
article there is mentioned something about the fees: one of the 
companies, MusicNet or PressPlay, I can;t remember which one, would 
offer the consumer a package of $19.95 for 75 downloads. And the 
artist would get $0.0023 per download. Do the math: $0.15 per 
download and ($0.0023/$0.15) * 100% = 23/15 % = 1.5% for the artist.
Now it is not clear if you should treat a download as a product you 
have licenced to the record company to put on the net, or as a 
hardcopy. In case of the licencing, the licence fee could go up to 
50% of the collected fees by the companies. That's a 45% difference.

> >I'll distribute my own music, thank you.
> >
> A viable alternative. It remains to be seen whether it'll be 
succesful 
> that way. It also remains to be seen whether you can live from it 
then. 
> It also remains to be seen whether more people will be able to 
listen to 
> your music then.

That may be true. But in this case we both, the record companies and 
I, are starting on a market that no one knows the rules of yet, :-). 
Equal opportunities. And it's not about listening, in this case, but 
more about marketing my music, :-). Up until now I find the marketing 
aproach on the net very poor. Besides those stupid banners and popup 
windows, no one has come up with a decent alternative. Those annoying 
newsletter don't work with me either. What is needed to be done is 
make people curious. Like what RealNetworks does with movies in their 
RealAudio app.
 
> 
> PS: I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just hope I can get 
interesting 
> replies from you. ;-)

Interesting material for your thesis, hey? ;-).
Yoonchi.

Joeri Vankeirsbilck wrote:
> Yoonchi wrote:
> 
> >So now record companies are trying to cheat on the artists even 
more? 
> >It looks like robbing to me.
> >
> Why?

You should read article I refered to. To summarize it: the majors 
want to decide for the artists what's best for them by distributing 
their work on the net, and paying them a ridiculous fee. In the 
article there is mentioned something about the fees: one of the 
companies, MusicNet or PressPlay, I can;t remember which one, would 
offer the consumer a package of $19.95 for 75 downloads. And the 
artist would get $0.0023 per download. Do the math: $0.15 per 
download and ($0.0023/$0.15) * 100% = 23/15 % = 1.5% for the artist.
Now it is not clear if you should treat a download as a product you 
have licenced to the record company to put on the net, or as a 
hardcopy. In case of the licencing, the licence fee could go up to 
50% of the collected fees by the companies. That's a 45% difference.

> >I'll distribute my own music, thank you.
> >
> A viable alternative. It remains to be seen whether it'll be 
succesful 
> that way. It also remains to be seen whether you can live from it 
then. 
> It also remains to be seen whether more people will be able to 
listen to 
> your music then.

That may be true. But in this case we both, the record companies and 
I, are starting on a market that no one knows the rules of yet, :-). 
Equal opportunities. And it's not about listening, in this case, but 
more about marketing my music, :-). Up until now I find the marketing 
aproach on the net very poor. Besides those stupid banners and popup 
windows, no one has come up with a decent alternative. Those annoying 
newsletter don't work with me either. What is needed to be done is 
make people curious. Like what RealNetworks does with movies in their 
RealAudio app.
 
> 
> PS: I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just hope I can get 
interesting 
> replies from you. ;-)

Interesting material for your thesis, hey? ;-).
Yoonchi.

Yoonchi wrote:

>But in this case we both, the record companies and
>I, are starting on a market that no one knows the rules of yet, :-).

Quite.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> more about marketing my music, :-). Up until now I find the marketing
> aproach on the net very poor.

	Back to Dj's and the club scene.  Before, most Dj's, especially young
ones still deciding upon a style, would only shop for music in a Dj
friendly record store. (i.e. a place where you can handle & listen to
the records first.)

	Groovetech.com has done a real good job of providing this same
experience on the net.  Listen to whatever you want, even the whole
song, then put it in your shopping cart, but instead of paying tax you
pay shipping.  Now the record stores don't worry about getting their
vinyl scratched, oily fingers, or having to replace their needles every
week.  Plus, it's great advertizement for all the music, even the tracks
you can't afford.

	On the flip side, one of the most important reasons to go hang out in
your local record store is the people.  You can't replace the experience
of meeting other local heads, musicians, artists.....hangin' out.

	So, I think in time all the new technology will find it's balance in
the market and culture.  Most importantly musicians, labels, and
distributors need to learn to use it well and not regard it as a threat.
 Just because cryogenics is here, doesn't mean everybody's running to
get frozen:-)

chems
-- 
_____________________________________________
blue alien house inc.
http://www.galaxymall.com/site/bluealienhouse
an interstellar media-arts collective     
_____________________________________________

Thoughts from the mind of blue alien, 25-02-2002:

>  Just because cryogenics is here, doesn't mean everybody's running to
>get frozen:-)

OK, this definitely has to be the Quote Of The Week :-).

Now I finally know what to say when I argue with my students about 
the usefulness (or lack thereof) of cell-phones (which I personally 
hate).  Thanks dude :).

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

> >  Just because cryogenics is here, doesn't mean everybody's running to
> >get frozen:-)
>
> Now I finally know what to say when I argue with my students about
> the usefulness (or lack thereof) of cell-phones (which I personally
> hate).  Thanks dude :).

Well, if cryogenics were as reliable as cell phones, "everybody" probably
would run to it.

Thoughts from the mind of Wilson Zorn, 25-02-2002:

>  > >  Just because cryogenics is here, doesn't mean everybody's running to
>>  >get frozen:-)
>>
>>  Now I finally know what to say when I argue with my students about
>>  the usefulness (or lack thereof) of cell-phones (which I personally
>>  hate).  Thanks dude :).
>
>Well, if cryogenics were as reliable as cell phones, "everybody" probably
>would run to it.

I'm afraid you're right...  The (un)usefulness (for 90+% of the 
population) of these things has little to do with their popularity. 
Might as well hold for cryogenics...

"hi, it's me... no, me, John!... yes, I'm in the train right now... 
huh?  yeah, in the TRAIN...  I'm at Utrecht Central now...  no, 
Utrecht...  yes, will be home in about 10 minutes...  hm? ...  no, 
TEN minutes...  yeah, see ya".  Combine this with the incessant "tsk 
tsk tsk tsk" from a bunch of walkmans, and there's really no fun 
anymore to travelling by train...
(and then such an idiot asks you to close the window because it makes 
too much noise so he can't understand what the other person is 
saying...  arghhh... &^%$#)

Ah!  Got the solution: if we freeze all the morons with cell-phones 
and walkmans, then... :-)

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Hendrik Jan Veenstra  grumbles:

>"hi, it's me... no, me, John!... yes, I'm in the train right now...
>huh?  yeah, in the TRAIN...  I'm at Utrecht Central now...  no,
>Utrecht...  yes, will be home in about 10 minutes...  hm? ...  no,
>TEN minutes...  yeah, see ya".  Combine this with the incessant "tsk
>tsk tsk tsk" from a bunch of walkmans, and there's really no fun
>anymore to travelling by train...
>(and then such an idiot asks you to close the window because it makes
>too much noise so he can't understand what the other person is
>saying...  arghhh... &^%$#)
>
>Ah!  Got the solution: if we freeze all the morons with cell-phones
>and walkmans, then... :-)

And they call *me* a grump.

I don't use a phone or a walkman on trains but it does not bother me 
in the least to see people doing something with the time they are 
incarcerated in the tube that they feel better about than staring 
straight on with the expression of  wet gerbils. What *does* bother 
me are the incessant recorded exhortations to cease and desist 
issuing at earbleed levels from the overhead speakers.

>
>
>Ah!  Got the solution: if we freeze all the morons with cell-phones 
>and walkmans, then... :-)
>
Here in Belgium, we have perfect reception in 99% of the areas, EXCEPT 
on trains. Very handy: wanna phone on a train? In 50% of the cases, you 
can forget it 'cause there's no reception at all.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Wilson Zorn" <wilson.zorn@a...> wrote:
> > >  Just because cryogenics is here, doesn't mean everybody's 
running to
> > >get frozen:-)
> >
> > Now I finally know what to say when I argue with my students about
> > the usefulness (or lack thereof) of cell-phones (which I 
personally
> > hate).  Thanks dude :).
> 
> Well, if cryogenics were as reliable as cell phones, "everybody" 
probably
> would run to it.

LOL. Cell phones reliable? Gimme a break! Server crashing here 
regularly ...
Yoonchi.

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:
> Hendrik Jan Veenstra  grumbles:
> 
> >"hi, it's me... no, me, John!... yes, I'm in the train right now...
> >huh?  yeah, in the TRAIN...  I'm at Utrecht Central now...  no,
> >Utrecht...  yes, will be home in about 10 minutes...  hm? ...  no,
> >TEN minutes...  yeah, see ya".  Combine this with the 
incessant "tsk
> >tsk tsk tsk" from a bunch of walkmans, and there's really no fun
> >anymore to travelling by train...
> >(and then such an idiot asks you to close the window because it 
makes
> >too much noise so he can't understand what the other person is
> >saying...  arghhh... &^%$#)
> >
> >Ah!  Got the solution: if we freeze all the morons with cell-phones
> >and walkmans, then... :-)
> 
> And they call *me* a grump.
> 
> I don't use a phone or a walkman on trains but it does not bother 
me 
> in the least to see people doing something with the time they are 
> incarcerated in the tube that they feel better about than staring 
> straight on with the expression of  wet gerbils.

ROFL. I'm seeing the image of a wet gerbil vividly, :-).

 What *does* bother 
> me are the incessant recorded exhortations to cease and desist 
> issuing at earbleed levels from the overhead speakers.

True, very annoying. Louder than needed. AS IF WE ARE NOT MUSICIANS. 
I needed to get that out of my system, :-).
Maybe if I'm over 60, I'll need that more often.
Yoonchi.

--- In logic-ot@y..., Joeri Vankeirsbilck <joeri@b...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Ah!  Got the solution: if we freeze all the morons with cell-
phones 
> >and walkmans, then... :-)
> >
> Here in Belgium, we have perfect reception in 99% of the areas, 
EXCEPT 
> on trains. Very handy: wanna phone on a train? In 50% of the cases, 
you 
> can forget it 'cause there's no reception at all.

LOL. Perfect Faraday cages.
Yoonchi.

Thoughts from the mind of Dennis Gunn, 26-02-2002:

>Hendrik Jan Veenstra  grumbles:
>>"hi, it's me... no, me, John!... yes, I'm in the train right now...
>>huh?  yeah, in the TRAIN...  I'm at Utrecht Central now...  no,
>>Utrecht...  yes, will be home in about 10 minutes...  hm? ...  no,
>>TEN minutes...  yeah, see ya".  Combine this with the incessant "tsk
>>tsk tsk tsk" from a bunch of walkmans, and there's really no fun
>  >anymore to travelling by train...
>[...]
>
>And they call *me* a grump.
>
>I don't use a phone or a walkman on trains but it does not bother me
>in the least to see people doing something with the time they are
>incarcerated in the tube that they feel better about than staring
>straight on with the expression of  wet gerbils.

I'd rather have them stare and be silent than having to listen to 
this completely braindead talking (or shouting usually).  I travel by 
train every day, and usually try to read a book.  Try to do that when 
a couple of idiots try to tell someone else that they're "on the 
train... yeah... what?  no ON THE TRAIN...".  Pfff...
And, mind you, being a teacher and witnessing the telephone 
conversations of 16-year olds every day _also_ doesn't help :-).

grump grump,
HJ
-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Thoughts from the mind of Joeri Vankeirsbilck, 26-02-2002:

>  >Ah!  Got the solution: if we freeze all the morons with cell-phones
>  >and walkmans, then... :-)
>
>Here in Belgium, we have perfect reception in 99% of the areas, EXCEPT
>on trains. Very handy: wanna phone on a train? In 50% of the cases, you
>can forget it 'cause there's no reception at all.

Cool -- another reason to move to Belgium.  Better nature, better 
food... and less phones on trains... :)

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Hendrik Jan wrote:
<"hi, it's me... no, me, John!... yes, I'm in the train right now...
huh? yeah, in the TRAIN... I'm at Utrecht Central now... no,
Utrecht... yes, will be home in about 10 minutes... hm? ... no,>

<snip>

All this talk of cell phones reminds ....

Did any of you every catch that concert organized by some Austrian 
composers using cell phones?
Essentially, each person attending their concert handed in their cell phone 
so that the frequency of its ring could be measured. Following that, each 
of them was given a specific seat. That way the composers could use a 
computer to call up any particular ring they liked by dialling in to that 
cell phone, thereby producing some music. The end of the article in the 
underneath link says:

"The performers' grid-based graphical interface is projected onto the
audience from above, and carefully registered with their seats. As a
result, each participant is lit up by a personal spot of light
whenever their handset is rung. In this way each individual becomes an
audio-visual pixel, a twinkling particle in an audio-visual
substance-and the participants, as a group, are at once audience,
orchestra and (active) score."


Sorry if you've all heard of it before, but I did a quick search in the 
archives and it didn't show up. The page has some mp3's you can listen to 
of said music.
http://www.flong.com/telesymphony/

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> >Well, if cryogenics were as reliable as cell phones, "everybody" probably
> >would run to it.
>
> I'm afraid you're right...  The (un)usefulness (for 90+% of the
> population) of these things has little to do with their popularity.
> Might as well hold for cryogenics...
>
To be fair I was making the point that cell phones are quite useful and IMHO
quite reliable.  They can be annoying but they have frequently saved lives
and connected people so I'm quite a proponent actually.

> LOL. Cell phones reliable? Gimme a break! Server crashing here
> regularly ...
> Yoonchi.

Now I'm really confused.  What server?  Your cell phone server?

Well I'm in the States, I guess it's different here.  Some people are
getting rid of their land lines and just using cell phones.  Given how bad
our phone company is (prices and service but yes I'll grant at 100%
availability as opposed to 99.x% for cell) my spouse and I are thinking of
the same thing.

Thoughts from the mind of Wilson Zorn, 26-02-2002:

>  > >Well, if cryogenics were as reliable as cell phones, "everybody" probably
>>  >would run to it.
>>
>>  I'm afraid you're right...  The (un)usefulness (for 90+% of the
>>  population) of these things has little to do with their popularity.
>  > Might as well hold for cryogenics...
>
>To be fair I was making the point that cell phones are quite useful and IMHO
>quite reliable.

I realise that that's the point you tried to make.  I just misused 
you to make the point *I* tried to make :-).

>They can be annoying but they have frequently saved lives
>and connected people so I'm quite a proponent actually.

Oh sure, I don't want to question their potential usefulness.  I just 
get a bit tired at times of the advertising hype of "being reachable 
always & everywhere", as if that's something anyone rally _wants_.  I 
love to be away from the phone at times, and I know many people share 
the same feeling.  However, somehow the majority seems to buy these 
kind of stupid sales arguments, and so every idiot buys a cellphone, 
pays premium rates (much more expensive than land lines, at least 
over here), etc.  And it all starts from the age of 10 or so -- every 
teenager has a cellphone.  And why?  I remember being 11, and I sure 
wasn't in need of a phone every day...  (and my parents wouldn't have 
been stupid enough to be willing to pay my cellphone bills)  But 
maybe I'm just getting old...

And then... great that we manage to increase the number of 
"communication moments" by being reachable 24 hours a day, but 
wouldn't it be far greater if we invented an appliance that didn't 
increase the communication rate, but the _level_ of communication 
:-).  I mean, seriously, 90% of all cellphone talks *is* completely 
moronic, isn't it?  And I don't mind people having moronic 
conversations, but why do I have to be witness to so many of them, 
especially at the volume they're ususally conducted at?

A few weeks ago, in the train, after a hard days work.  A 4-person 
seat (2 next to each other, 2 opposite).  I tried to read a book. 
The guy next to me had a walkman go 'tsk tsk tsk'.  The guy opposite 
me had a cellphone (digital 'Fur Elise' tune, and then the ususal 
"I'm in the train... yeah... train!" conversation), and the 4th guy 
had a laptop on which he was working, producing the occasional 
'bleep' whenever he mis-clicked a dialog or button or so.  Once more: 
I TRIED to read a book...
Now I don't mind walkmans in principle (own one myself), I wish I had 
a laptop, and I sure see the good sides of cellphones.  But at 
times...

Oh well, apart from the laptop, this discussion is way OT, even for 
the OT list, so let's drop it :-).

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

>
>
>A few weeks ago, in the train, after a hard days work.  A 4-person
>seat (2 next to each other, 2 opposite).  I tried to read a book.
>The guy next to me had a walkman go 'tsk tsk tsk'.  The guy opposite
>me had a cellphone (digital 'Fur Elise' tune, and then the ususal
>"I'm in the train... yeah... train!" conversation), and the 4th guy
>had a laptop on which he was working, producing the occasional
>'bleep' whenever he mis-clicked a dialog or button or so.  Once more:
>I TRIED to read a book...

	Just to beat a dead horse...

	I was playing piano in a nice restaurant last week when this 
guy at the table in front of the piano makes a call.  He seemed to go 
to a great deal of trouble to make sure that everyone in the 
restaurant understood how important his work was.  This was around 
9:30 on a Friday evening with a lovely dinner guest at his table. 
Time to get off work and move on to more important business if you 
ask me!
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>	I was playing piano in a nice restaurant last week when this
>guy at the table in front of the piano makes a call.  He seemed to go
>to a great deal of trouble to make sure that everyone in the
>restaurant understood how important his work was.  This was around
>9:30 on a Friday evening with a lovely dinner guest at his table.
>Time to get off work and move on to more important business if you
>ask me!

Trains OK.  But *this* is a capitol offence.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Doug Slick" <dslick@...>

" He seemed to go
to a great deal of trouble to make sure that everyone in the
restaurant understood how important his work was. This was around
> 9:30 on a Friday evening with a lovely dinner guest at his table.
> Time to get off work and move on to more important business if you
> ask me!"

maybe he thought if he made himself look like a powerful, important business
man (and therfore rich) it would impress the pants off the girl :-)

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Doug Slick" <dslick@...>
>
>" He seemed to go
>to a great deal of trouble to make sure that everyone in the
>restaurant understood how important his work was. This was around
>>  9:30 on a Friday evening with a lovely dinner guest at his table.
>>  Time to get off work and move on to more important business if you
>>  ask me!"
>
>maybe he thought if he made himself look like a powerful, important business
>man (and therfore rich) it would impress the pants off the girl :-)
>

	Definitely didn't go his way then.  She looked bored.  I felt 
like asking her to the bar for a drink on my break but I thought the 
management might not see it as chivalry.  :-)
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]