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Re: [OT] Digits for dimmer

Re: [OT] Digits for dimmer

2002-02-25 by Martin, Jeremy

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From: marky_kang [markbates@...]
Date: Mon 02/25/2002 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [LUG]  [OT] Digits for dimmer

i read the same article, and the easy ones are 9:00 and 3:00, but the 
writer goes on to use times like 10:45 and 2:15!! i think the 
question is what do those times mean?? i know i was confused reading 
the article. if anybody can throw out some midi panning settings such 
as +27 or -45 that would be fantastic.
-mark

http://www.markbates.com

--- In logic-users@y..., Kool Musick <koolmusick@y...> wrote:
> Vitaly wrote:
> 
> >Please, explain me what does it mean examples with this numbers?
> They are "clock" numbers.
> 9:00 means where 9 is on your watch or clock, so that's hard left
> 3:00 means where 3 is on your watch or clock so that's hard right
> 12 is dead centre at the back
> 6 is dead centre but front.
> 
> 11:00 would be ... well ...  bit to the left and bit at the 
back ... you 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> should have the idea by now, now!!!
> 
> Kool Musick
> Keep Musick Kool

Re: [OT] Digits for dimmer

2002-02-25 by Kool Musick

Marky Kang (I think) wrote:

>i read the same article, and the easy ones are 9:00 and 3:00, but the
>writer goes on to use times like 10:45 and 2:15!! i think the
>question is what do those times mean?? i know i was confused reading
>the article. if anybody can throw out some midi panning settings such
>as +27 or -45 that would be fantastic.
>-mark

Hmmm. Off the top of my head, I would set about it this way.

First, the problem of volume ... some things being "in front" and other 
things being "behind". In MIDI-land, all the CC's go in pairs, separated by 
32. Thus 0 is paired with 32, and both of them deal with bank change 
messages. 1 is paired with 33. This pairing is simply intended to give one 
a more refined way of dealing with things if necessary. It's kind of the 
way that pitch bend works. Thus CC2 is pared with CC34.

The basic idea is that one of any such pairing controls 'coarse' 
resolution, while the other controls a 'fine' resolution. This means that 
for example we could leave Controller 2 (chosen arbitrarily) set at say a 
value of 15 (also chosen arbitrarily) ... and then use Controller 34 to 
explore a whole range of 128 values. This increases the resolution we have 
to work with because we now have 128 x 128 values using our 2 controllers 
instead of only the 128 we had with one.

Everyone's familiar with CC 7 which is usually used for Volume. People are 
considerably less familiar with CC11, however, which is "Expression" -- or 
with its partner in crime, CC43. 11 is then Coarse Expression while 43 is 
Fine Expression.

The purpose of an Expression CC is to affect a percentage of Volume. That's 
to say, if you send a MIDI signal at CC7 and set your volume to 84 (again 
arbitrary), you can then use Expression to affect volume. So if you set 
Expression at 64, which is half-way through its 128-value range, then the 
volume of the part you are concerned with would in fact play at 50% of the 
Volume as set by CC7. In this case it would play at 43.

You can use Expression to give swells up and down in volume around your 
Main Volume as set by CC7. That's why it's called Expression. The system is 
designed to reduce MIDI traffic. When you bring in CC 43 you can then use 
MIDI messages to move your instruments back and forth dynamically in the 
stereo field to a very high resolution.

I hope that's clear as mud.

To try to clarify ... what Expression allows you to do is to have 
crescendos and decrescendos without the system having to do lots of 
algebra. Notice, though, that Expression cannot increase your volume beyond 
what is set by CC7 -- which controls the true or actual Volume. You must 
therefore always set your loudest sound by CC7. This should be what you 
consider to be the most up front and in your face of the sounds your 
dealing with. That done, you can then position everything else backwards in 
the stereo field by using CC11. So, for example, just as people often use 
the Pan Controller to swing things left and right for effect, so also can 
you use CC11 to make things move dramatically backwards and forwards in 
your stereo field. Look on CC7 as the individual faders for your mix with 
Expression then being a way of doing some group fader stuff.

Therefore ... the 6 o'clock position is set by your Main Volume Controller 
which is CC7. Everything else is set backwards from that. If you want a 
totally circular field, then I suppose, you would set Expression at 64 
(i.e. 50% of the frontmost sound) for your hard right and hard left 
positions -- because they would be half-way back, no? Then since you have 
12 steps forwards and 12 steps back (look at your clock) you divide your 
available dynamic range by 12.

One thing you need to be careful of though ... if you set Expression to 
zero then you are not going to hear anything because 0% of whatever CC7 is 
set as is a big fat zero. So ... you would have to decide on the dynamic 
level of your quietest sound ... then work out what percentage that is of 
your loudest or frontmost sound ... If in your opinion your quietest sound 
is 1/3rd the volume of your loudest sound then, pretty much, your minimum 
value for your Expression controller would be 42 which is basically one 
third of the 128 values you have available. You can then map everything 
between 42 and 127 depending on how far forwards or backwards you wanted 
it. In this particular case, half-way through the field -- which would also 
be hard right and hard left -- would be a MIDI value for Expression of 86 
because we are no longer going from 0 to 128, but rather from 42 to 128.

I'm sure it's a lot simpler than I'm making it seem, actually.


As for panning ... you again have 128 values stretching from right to left. 
Frankly, I can't be bothered with a proper true circular mapping, but you 
could do that if you wanted. It would surely be easiest to just divide 128 
by 12. That's to say each 'hour' on your clock is represented by 10-2/3rs 
MIDI values. Dead centre is 64. 9 o'clock is zero, 3 o'clock is 128, and I 
leave it up to you to work out all the positions in between.

So ... you can now shuffle backwards and forwards perfectly happily in your 
stereo field according to your clock ... and also pan backwards and 
forwards perfectly happily.

Truth is ... I've never done anything REMOTELY like this so I have 
absolutely no idea how it would work. And, to be honest ... I don't really 
much feel like trying it out either!!

If anyone tries this out, do let me know how it goes!!


Sheesh!!!! I really must get a life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool



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[L-OT] Re: [OT] Digits for dimmer

2002-02-25 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Kool Musick, 25-02-2002:

>You can use Expression to give swells up and down in volume around your
>Main Volume as set by CC7. That's why it's called Expression. The system is
>designed to reduce MIDI traffic.

How does the use of controller 11 (expression) as opposed to using 
controller 7 (volume) reduce midi traffic?

>I hope that's clear as mud.

Uhm... indeed :).

>To try to clarify ... what Expression allows you to do is to have
>crescendos and decrescendos without the system having to do lots of
>algebra.

Same question: how does using CC11 reduce the amount of calculations 
that have to be done as opposed to using CC7?

>I'm sure it's a lot simpler than I'm making it seem, actually.

I hope it is...  LOL...

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Re: [L-OT] Re: [OT] Digits for dimmer

2002-02-26 by Kool Musick

Emanations from the phlying phalanges of Hendrik Jan Veenstra:

>Thoughts from the mind of Kool Musick, 25-02-2002:
> >You can use Expression to give swells up and down in volume around your
> >Main Volume as set by CC7. That's why it's called Expression. The system is
> >designed to reduce MIDI traffic.

>How does the use of controller 11 (expression) as opposed to using
>controller 7 (volume) reduce midi traffic?

Hmmm. Good question. On thinking about it -- I think I might be wrong here 
and you correct!!
My mistake?
I just swallowed, and without further thought, something said to me by the 
person who first encouraged me to use CC 11.
Only Bad Students ever do this, so I'm obviously a Bad Student!!!!

So ... I am dimmer, you are smarter!!!

Let's see ....

As I understand it, CC11 allows you to simulate dynamics without having to 
change the overall volume of any given channel and also without having to 
modify the volume of each and every note.

Rough procedure: best to give yourself some 'headroom' if you want the best 
out of CC11. Set CC11 on all instruments / notes you want to manipulate 
somewhere between 95 and 110. Then use CC7 to set desired channel mix -- 
i.e. both their relative and absolute volumes. E.g. your saxophone at 
loudest is 120, your piano at its loudest 100, drums 90 etc.

Now, if you want to drop the overall volume of everything in your entire 
mix to half their loudest values but you want to keep the balances of the 
mix the same, now simply take CC11 down to 64, which is 50% of whatever you 
have set for each instrument or part using CC7. Your sax will now be 60, 
your piano at 50, your drums 45 etc. You have not had to change the overall 
volume of anything on the channel ... you haven't upset your nice mix ... 
and you've only used one controller -- CC11.

Now ... when we use CC11, we still have to send the usual Status Byte with 
low nibble indicating, as per usual, the MIDI channel we are dealing with. 
We still have to send two data bytes, the one being the controller number 
for CC11, the second one telling us the value between 0 and 127.

We only need to send one such message, as far as I can see, in order to 
affect everything on that channel.

Now as far as I recall the MIDI spec suggests that CC 7 work 
logarithmically, so we usually have [log VV/127] x 40h where VV is the 
particular MIDI value we are dealing with.

When we use CC11 Expression, however, we subtract a given amount from 
whatever our setting of VV is as immediately above.

So no, in essence. You are correct and I was mistaken. CC11 does NOT reduce 
MIDI traffic, because when I manipulate CC11 a proportionate subtraction 
has to be done and those messages must still be sent over every channel and 
to every note concerned. For every value sent by CC11 there exists an exact 
same value that could have been sent more directly using CC7.

All CC11 does is reduce both Mental Indigestion and Digital Incompetence 
(MIDI) on the part of the operator because they don't have to work anything 
out on a per voice or per note basis ... just move this one controller and 
everything is done!!

Present score:
The Magnificent Mind of HJV:
16,384 and counting ...

the Extremely Foolish Mind of Kool Musick (EFMKM for short) has yet to 
register a score of any significance on any matter of substance but he is 
still smiling:
zero ...
... but ... can't fall any further because negative numbers don't exist, 
really (!!!!!!)

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


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Re: [L-OT] Re: [OT] Digits for dimmer

2002-02-26 by Hendrik Jan Veenstra

Thoughts from the mind of Kool Musick, 26-02-2002:

>Emanations from the phlying phalanges of Hendrik Jan Veenstra:

What??  Should I get the dictionary out now...??

>  >How does the use of controller 11 (expression) as opposed to using
>>controller 7 (volume) reduce midi traffic?
>
>Hmmm. Good question.

Well... I just wondered if I might be missing something.

>All CC11 does is reduce both Mental Indigestion and Digital Incompetence
>(MIDI) on the part of the operator because they don't have to work anything
>out on a per voice or per note basis ... just move this one controller and
>everything is done!!

Sure, agreed on that one.  Actually, I often wish the Audio Objects 
had such functionality.  Some extra volume 'tweaker' that allows you 
to control volumes in a relative manner.  As when you've made an 
automation track which in itself is OK, but you'd just like to pump 
up the overall volume a bit on some parts.  Now you either have to 
selectively drag hyperdraw points up, or insert a gainer plugin and 
automate that.  Quite sloppy...

tata,
HJ
-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

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