The Logic Off Topic list

>
>
>Can any one tell me about some old news or new news regarding any 
>developments which have affect the music production please?
>
What exactly is your question? What do you want to know? I might be able 
to help, but I'm not sure what you're after.


-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

HI ya,

Just trying to find out some news over the years when Music bands or songs 
have caused a big fuss with the media or like that.

Sergeant Pepper I was advised on.  But not to clued up on him at moment.  Gun 
Law from ICE-T.  Sex Pistles - Treason against the queen - with the song god 
saved the queen.  Madonna with her video HE HE.  examples like these.

Very interesting to know.  Examples like these or any thing that might 
interest me regarding the music industry would be great.  Thank you


: -))

>
>
>Just trying to find out some news over the years when Music bands or songs 
>have caused a big fuss with the media or like that.
>Sergeant Pepper I was advised on.  But not to clued up on him at moment.  Gun 
>Law from ICE-T.  Sex Pistles - Treason against the queen - with the song god 
>saved the queen.  Madonna with her video HE HE.  examples like these.
>Very interesting to know.  Examples like these or any thing that might 
>interest me regarding the music industry would be great.  Thank you
>
Ah, I'm afraid I can't help you with that. If you need corporate info on 
majors etc, then I can help.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

In a message dated 19/02/2002 01:47:11 GMT Standard Time, joeri@... 
writes:


> Ah, I'm afraid I can't help you with that. If you need corporate info on 
> majors etc, then I can help.
> 
> 

What do you mean by this please?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DbbBrook@...  wrote:
  >Sergeant Pepper I was advised on.  But not to clued up on him at >moment.

    Sergent Pepper was a classic album recorded by the Beatles. In a lot of senses it was a revolution:-) 

  >Very interesting to know.  Examples like these or any thing that >might 
  >interest me regarding the music industry would be great.  Thank you

    Well, I know there was a video by Radiohead that was banned by Mtv. I don't know the name of the song it was for...The video was based around this guy walking in the road and being hit by cars. He just keeps getting up and getting hit. They considered it to by too disturbing. Funny how Mtv is the judge of good tatse. Their standards are so high:-)) HAHA!! 

    If you're talking more about the buisness aspect how about here in America where the record companies got the rights to keep the ownership of master recordings not allowing artists to regain the ownership to their catalog after a number of years. Something which was before left to the contract. Normally if you would haggle enough and have great lawyers, etc.... after so many years your creation would become your property. When the law changed, your creation is the record companies for eternety. Leaving you nothing to hand down to your children. How depressing is this? Their were some great artists who were outraged and putting up a fight for the good of every artist out there. They had special hearings with the government...I'm not sure what the current state of things are...Could someone comment? The last I thought I heard was inorder for the record companies to gain support for their case against Napster they were willing to give up that law..Did that happen? 

        --Roger


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>Just trying to find out some news over the years when Music bands or songs
>have caused a big fuss with the media or like that.
>

How about Sugar Hill Gang with Rapper's Delight?  1979.  First rap 
hits the record stores.  Before then, AFAIK, nobody had taken the 
music tracks from another band (they use a Chic song, forget the name 
of the tune now) and added spoken rhyme.

I'm not a major rap fan, just the first thing that springs to mind as 
a real trend setter after the Beatles.
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
>>Ah, I'm afraid I can't help you with that. If you need corporate info on 
>>majors etc, then I can help.
>>
>What do you mean by this please?
>
Information on what's happening on the corporate side of the music bizz, 
meaning things like:
What will EMI be focusing on, who's heading Universal, IS BMG going to 
buy Edel soon etc... that kind of things.

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

> From: Doug Slick <dslick@...>
> 
> How about Sugar Hill Gang with Rapper's Delight?  1979.  First rap
> hits the record stores.  Before then, AFAIK, nobody had taken the
> music tracks from another band (they use a Chic song, forget the name
> of the tune now) and added spoken rhyme.

Actually, the first rap record was King Tim III with the Fatback band, about
half a year earlier.

btw, rappers delight used "Good Times" by chic.

Will Napster I heard one man Mcguinn has challenged them.

I also need information on technique issues like the first sampler etc..

Also has any one heard of Phil Pecker about the wall of  the sound please

:-))

Any one have any more information regarding Sergeant Pepper.  I just don't 
know what he is about or what he done?

:-))

In a message dated 19/02/2002 01:59:20 GMT Standard Time, litepipe@... 
writes:


> When the law changed, your creation is the record companies for eternity. 
> Leaving you nothing to hand down to your children. How depressing is this? 

B=Very depressing.  My god.  All our own work and they get to keep it.  Well, 
I feel sorry for the people that get hardly any money for there ideas as 
well.

Their were some great artists who were outraged and putting up a fight for 
the good of every artist out there. They had special hearings with the 
government...I'm not sure what the current state of things are...Could 
someone comment?  Three cheers for the artists.  I wonder what is going on my 
self now.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What will EMI be focusing on, who's heading Universal, IS BMG going to 
buy Edel soon etc... that kind of things.

-- YER,

That is also very interesting to me

hehehe Phil Pecker is actually Phil Spector, you might find some info here:

http://www.history-of-rock.com/spector.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~rauschj/

Seargant Pepper was an album by the Beatles (you should have heard of them).
George Martin was their producer and set up Air studios (now buried beneath
lava in Montesserat, ah well...)
http://www.thebeatles.com/ for a start
http://www.math.montana.edu/~griff/sgtpepper/sgt.html

You might try searching for info on the Beachboys 'Pet Sounds'
http://www.beachboys.com/raritiesIV.html for a start

Then there is the whole home studio phenomenon and the argument whether this
improves music by allowing more people get involved or whether it erodes the
standards set by generations of properly (and I mean self-taught to....)
trained musicians and producers. Some say this encourages innovation, I
think it encourages everybody to play the 'me too' game and try to sound
like everybody else.

Also the availability of good quality (and poor quality...) sample
libraries - that make everybody sound the same.

Then what napster/mp3.com has done for changing the way people view music
distribution and copyright.

Copyright is a good and bad thing. Good in that it allows creators of music
keep control of their product, but bad in that multinationals can beat
consumers over the head with copyright as in the latest piracy-protected CD
scandal (where the majors were shipping faulty CD's that are not meant to
work in computer CD players).

Time was when people insisted on having an object to hold as they listened
to music - CD's, LP's etc. are really fetish objects in this context. The
new objects that people want to have and hold might be MP3 players etc. The
music itself MAY be secondary, just a sound bite in conversation - 'yeah I
have the latest from XYZ, downloaded it from nickster.org'.

Whatcha think yourself?

--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--
----- Original Message -----

From: <DbbBrook@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry


> Any one have any more information regarding Sergeant Pepper.  I just don't
> know what he is about or what he done?
>
> :-))
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Yes, have heard of the beatles just personally don't know much about them.  
Mum and dad know more.  Wish I did, but have so much to learn.  I get there 
in the end.

Home studios are a good idea.  People have a dream and have personal mental 
and health issues so they can't always get out and about.  So having the 
equipment at home is just good.  We can make a star from working at home.  
Helps people in all sorts of way.

Napster is going on at the moment about mp3s, etc..  Bad in a way for really 
good musicians to get their music over the net for cheap but I will just 
copyright it and keep it close to me.  It's good because people can learn.  
Musicians have already done what they wanted to do to their tracks so pass on 
there good ideas so other people can learn.

Just got musicmaker for mp3's not bad.

Thank you for all your help.  Someone mentioned Phil pecker. have you heard 
of him by any chance?

WEEE Well, I'm of to do some more reading and check these links out.

Oh Phil spector.  Right you wait until I see my mate, now most probably me 
spelling it wrong.

>  > From: Doug Slick <dslick@...>
>>
>>  How about Sugar Hill Gang with Rapper's Delight?  1979.  First rap
>>  hits the record stores.  Before then, AFAIK, nobody had taken the
>>  music tracks from another band (they use a Chic song, forget the name
>>  of the tune now) and added spoken rhyme.
>
>Actually, the first rap record was King Tim III with the Fatback band, about
>half a year earlier.

	Oh really.  I never heard of him/them.  Did they put out a 
whole album of rap or was it more of a section of a tune kinda thing?

>btw, rappers delight used "Good Times" by chic.
>

	That's right.  Just went brain dead on the name.
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 19/02/2002 13:58:49 GMT Standard Time, mark@... 
writes:


> http://www.history-of-rock.com/spector.htm

Thank you once again.  I am not very good for looking for things on the net.  
On it all day some times.  To say the least I'm learning.  WEEEEE


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>Seargant Pepper was an album by the Beatles (you should have heard of them).
>George Martin was their producer and set up Air studios (now buried beneath
>lava in Montesserat, ah well...)

	One of the many ground breaking aspects of this album was 
that the whole side of the LP was made to be played non-stop. 
Definitely not designed for top 40 radio as were all other pop music 
albums of the time.
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 19/02/2002 13:58:49 GMT Standard Time, mark@... 
writes:


> http://www.math.montana.edu/~griff/sgtpepper/sgt.html

Got all of the links opened and my god so much information.  Thank you again. 
 The above one I couldn't open as yet, but I will try again later.

:-))))))))))))) xxxxxxxxxx


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debbie wrote:
> > http://www.math.montana.edu/~griff/sgtpepper/sgt.html
> Got all of the links opened and my god so much information.  Thank you
again.

no worries Debbie,

I found all those links in a matter of minutes using Google - its an
indespensible research tool!!

>  The above one I couldn't open as yet, but I will try again later.

yeah seemed a little slow to me too...

> :-))))))))))))) xxxxxxxxxx

8^)

--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--

I am having nightmares at moment with Google All I want to find as well is a 
site linked to microphone techniques. All I keep getting is the book 
professional microphones techniques. I have top record a jazz band live in 
the recording studio Sunday and have to set up all the mikes but I don't know 
how they are positioned.  But not to fear Debbie is here.  I will find the 
answer.  I think i will just use my common sense and that should get me 
though the day.   :-))

>Then there is the whole home studio phenomenon and the argument whether this
>improves music by allowing more people get involved or whether it erodes the
>standards set by generations of properly (and I mean self-taught to....)
>trained musicians and producers. Some say this encourages innovation, I
>think it encourages everybody to play the 'me too' game and try to sound
>like everybody else.

Er.  Like the "standards" were not a bunch of producers copying each 
other at the behest of a bunch of artists who wanted to sound like 
(name here)?  Is it just a coincidence that you can hear a tune from 
any of the past five decades for the first time and place it to 
within five or *max* ten years of it's origin?  Are fashions the 
result of some cosmic resonance and not the result people copying 
each other?

Sure there are a billion "me too" artists out there and with the new 
technology they will sound marginally better than they did before and 
remain just as obscure.  The exceptional artists will always be 
exceptional.  Putting more power into the hands of individuals is in 
no possible way a bad thing.

This is like saying that the fact that the economy has improved to 
the point where anyone can buy paint, canvas and brushes has 
destroyed the art of painting.

>Also the availability of good quality (and poor quality...) sample
>libraries - that make everybody sound the same.

Everyone that is but those who put in the effort and take the time to 
sound different.



>Then what napster/mp3.com has done for changing the way people view music
>distribution and copyright.



>Copyright is a good and bad thing. Good in that it allows creators of music
>keep control of their product, but bad in that multinationals can beat
>consumers over the head with copyright as in the latest piracy-protected CD
>scandal (where the majors were shipping faulty CD's that are not meant to
>work in computer CD players).

We'll see what happens in the end but it is pretty easy to understand 
why the high quality copies people can make with computers is 
alarming to rec. companies.

>Time was when people insisted on having an object to hold as they listened
>to music - CD's, LP's etc. are really fetish objects in this context. The
>new objects that people want to have and hold might be MP3 players etc. The
>music itself MAY be secondary, just a sound bite in conversation - 'yeah I
>have the latest from XYZ, downloaded it from nickster.org'.

It will be interesting to see how the mp3 revolution will play out. 
I think the people trying to put that Genie back in the bottle are 
deluding themselves to the point of absurdity.

>Whatcha think yourself?

Dennis Gunn wrote:

>Sure there are a billion "me too" artists out there and with the new 
>technology they will sound marginally better than they did before and 
>remain just as obscure.  The exceptional artists will always be 
>exceptional.  Putting more power into the hands of individuals is in 
>no possible way a bad thing.
>
>This is like saying that the fact that the economy has improved to 
>the point where anyone can buy paint, canvas and brushes has 
>destroyed the art of painting.
>
I totally agree, but unfortunately, especially in continental Europe, 
but elsewhere to a slightly lesser extent as well, that's exactly what 
the major labels thrive on. They tend to sign artists on the strength of 
their 'me too' appeal. The classic A&R manager with a vision and a well 
formed taste in music seems to be extinct, and the marketing-trained red 
wine and sushi aficionado dressed completely in black seems to have 
taken his/her place. The result: artists who - even IF they can sing 
and/or write - have a life span of 2 years max, because nobody's ever 
bothered to check whether they have any long-term potential in them, 
i.e. nobody's nurtured them or built them up. Somone like Billy Joel, 
despite shitloads of talent and long-term potential wouldn't get signed 
today. Major labels today want instant results. They don't seem to think 
that breaking lots of one hit wonders might actually work out more 
expensive than sticking to one highly talented individual. But the 
amount of money they waste on completely useless activities, e.g. big 
press parties although the record release has been delayed, etc., makes 
me sick anyway. And now they're all crying because their turnover has 
plummeted.
Unfortunately, this also means that fewer and fewer artists will get 
signed, and that recording budgets will be significantly reduced. Forget 
the string section and the session musos! Bedroom productions will be 
even more commonplace than what they are now. And even though I don't 
really want to, I side with the record companies when it comes to new 
technologies and copyright etc. Example: one of my songs will be 
released on a European album next month. It's already on rotation on 
Russian independent (pirate) radio. I will not see a penny for this. So, 
how the hell did the song get there when it hasn't even been released 
yet? And why do people think they have the right to use music written by 
others as if it were their own? The same goes for those who pirate CDs. 
If it was just a couple of skint teenagers here and there, noone would 
give a shit, but as it is, everybody working in the music industry is 
losing income big time. And we're not all at the top of the food (and 
income) chain! According to my publisher, the greatest culprit in the CD 
pirating game in Europe is Germany. (I'm German myself, so I can say 
this without being accused of racism :-)). Surprising, considering CDs 
are relatively cheap compared to other European countries. Lack of 
respect for music, perhaps? I dunno! Copy protection for music CDs? YES 
PLEASE!

Cheers,

Recky

>
>
>>Also the availability of good quality (and poor quality...) sample
>>libraries - that make everybody sound the same.
>>
>
>Everyone that is but those who put in the effort and take the time to 
>sound different.
>
>
>
>>Then what napster/mp3.com has done for changing the way people view music
>>distribution and copyright.
>>
>
>
>
>>Copyright is a good and bad thing. Good in that it allows creators of music
>>keep control of their product, but bad in that multinationals can beat
>>consumers over the head with copyright as in the latest piracy-protected CD
>>scandal (where the majors were shipping faulty CD's that are not meant to
>>work in computer CD players).
>>
>
>We'll see what happens in the end but it is pretty easy to understand 
>why the high quality copies people can make with computers is 
>alarming to rec. companies.
>
>>Time was when people insisted on having an object to hold as they listened
>>to music - CD's, LP's etc. are really fetish objects in this context. The
>>new objects that people want to have and hold might be MP3 players etc. The
>>music itself MAY be secondary, just a sound bite in conversation - 'yeah I
>>have the latest from XYZ, downloaded it from nickster.org'.
>>
>
>It will be interesting to see how the mp3 revolution will play out. 
>I think the people trying to put that Genie back in the bottle are 
>deluding themselves to the point of absurdity.
>
>>Whatcha think yourself?
>>
-- 
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.

There's also a negative side."

(Hunter S. Thompson)

> Er.  Like the "standards" were not a bunch of producers copying each
> other at the behest of a bunch of artists who wanted to sound like
> (name here)?  Is it just a coincidence that you can hear a tune from
> any of the past five decades for the first time and place it to
> within five or *max* ten years of it's origin?  Are fashions the
> result of some cosmic resonance and not the result people copying
> each other?

agreed Dennis, sorry I was just spouting for Debbies sake, like food for
thought you know? Came across a bit harsh - I'm one of those 'me too' people
too! I think the best thing is to do what Pablo Picasso did, steal ideas
from your peers - but do it better!! Crossover is the way of the future -
whatever it may be you are cross breeding!

Sorry if I unintentionally insulted anyone

> Sure there are a billion "me too" artists out there and with the new
> technology they will sound marginally better than they did before and
> remain just as obscure.  The exceptional artists will always be
> exceptional.  Putting more power into the hands of individuals is in
> no possible way a bad thing.

Again, very true. Everyone starts out being marginal and obscure but if we
push ourselves we MAY achieve our personal goals which is often success
enough and then once you've done that... I think it comes down to an
argument about music as a hobby and professionally - where do you draw the
line? Is a hobby defined as such because you dont make money from it or it
is something you dont devote all your attention to? sorry, veering off into
semantic bullshit territory there...

> >Also the availability of good quality (and poor quality...) sample
> >libraries - that make everybody sound the same.
>
> Everyone that is but those who put in the effort and take the time to
> sound different.

yep, yep, sorry again :(

> We'll see what happens in the end but it is pretty easy to understand
> why the high quality copies people can make with computers is
> alarming to rec. companies.

> It will be interesting to see how the mp3 revolution will play out.
> I think the people trying to put that Genie back in the bottle are
> deluding themselves to the point of absurdity.

yep. For artists distribution is the bugbear really isnt it, even with great
sites like cdbaby.com, there are failings, the most immediate of which is
the cost of distribution to Europe which is borne by the buyer - all the
CD's are warehoused in the states! Bit of a disincentive for buyers...
anyone on this list have a credit card merchant account, lots of storage
space and live near to a post office? Then there is the problem of getting
exposure......!

cheers all. I would be interested in anyone who wants to talk about the
pitfalls in setting up a (global?) music distribution service that is
essentially on online shop and is open to less popular artists as well as
more popular.


--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--

> From: Doug Slick <dslick@...>
>> 
>> Actually, the first rap record was King Tim III with the Fatback band, about
>> half a year earlier.
> 
> Oh really.  I never heard of him/them.  Did they put out a
> whole album of rap or was it more of a section of a tune kinda thing?

It was one track on the album.  Fatback had many albums before and after, it
was a very popular group in the '70's.  Mostly instrumental music.

>  > From: Doug Slick <dslick@...>
>>>
>>>  Actually, the first rap record was King Tim III with the Fatback 
>>>band, about
>>>  half a year earlier.
>>
>>  Oh really.  I never heard of him/them.  Did they put out a
>>  whole album of rap or was it more of a section of a tune kinda thing?
>
>It was one track on the album.  Fatback had many albums before and after, it
>was a very popular group in the '70's.  Mostly instrumental music.
>

	I looked 'em up.  I remember the tunes but not the name of 
the band.  Especially "Spanish Hustle."  I guess the chemicals I 
ingested in those days took a toll on my memory.  :-)

	Haven't found a rap tune yet.  Just lookin' for historical 
curiosity's sake.
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "Doug Slick" <dslick@...>

> I looked 'em up.  I remember the tunes but not the name of
> the band.  Especially "Spanish Hustle."  I guess the chemicals I
> ingested in those days took a toll on my memory.  :-)
>
> Haven't found a rap tune yet.  Just lookin' for historical
> curiosity's sake.

Doug,

Check out Fatback's later production, particularly the quite famous 'Is this
the future?' from the same-named album from 1983
(http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Ai8ae4j170wal). Dark and
serious rap lyrics about the state of the future, kind of similar in meaning
to 'The message' by Grandmaster Flash (and the Furious Five?).

rgds,

Bj\ufffdrn Elfstr\ufffdm

>  > Er.  Like the "standards" were not a bunch of producers copying each
>>  other at the behest of a bunch of artists who wanted to sound like
>>  (name here)?  Is it just a coincidence that you can hear a tune from
>>  any of the past five decades for the first time and place it to
>>  within five or *max* ten years of it's origin?  Are fashions the
>>  result of some cosmic resonance and not the result people copying
>>  each other?
>
>agreed Dennis, sorry I was just spouting for Debbies sake, like food for
>thought you know? Came across a bit harsh -

Not in the least.  I am not trying to offend I am just disagreeing 
with the argument.  As far as me too goes.  Everyone including the 
trend setters is imitating someone to some degree.

I think the amount of originality the mainstream market supports is 
clearly a cyclical thing.  I do not on the other hand believe there 
is any actual fluctuation in creativity.

That's why I think the home studio revolution is so wonderful.  Some 
guy/or gal may slave away doing greater and greater stuff at home 
building a body of work and wondering why nobody notices it then 
*bam* the market decides it's time for a change of the guard and 
suddenly people become responsive to new ideas there he/she is with a 
complete body of work and a well honed "brand new thang'.

I differently agree with you Dennis.

:-))

>
>
>Check out Fatback's later production, particularly the quite famous 'Is this
>the future?' from the same-named album from 1983
>(<http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Ai8ae4j170wal).>http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=Ai8ae4j170wal). 
>Dark and
>serious rap lyrics about the state of the future, kind of similar in meaning
>to 'The message' by Grandmaster Flash (and the Furious Five?).
>

Thanks Bjorn.  I'll check it out.
-- 
Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dennis Gunn said:
>It will be interesting to see how the mp3 revolution will play out.
>I think the people trying to put that Genie back in the bottle are
>deluding themselves to the point of absurdity.

Agreed.

Joeri Vankeirsbilck said:
>While it [Napster et al] is a problem in the short term, it's all a matter 
>of time
>before the industry has "sued them all". ;-)
Possible, but I don't really think it's the way.

Joeri also said:
>I'm convinced it's possible to get down illegal downloading to 10% or
>so, just like real world pirating.
10% is still a lot!!

>But it'll take many more years...
>which is a good thing because the industry's alternatives aren't ready
>yet either.
I think 'alternatives' is really the point here.


Yoonchi wrote:
>So now record companies are trying to cheat on the artists even more?
>It looks like robbing to me. After that quote of Elton John on how
>companies try to suck up the music market, I think it's time for
>another punk era, :-). I'll distribute my own music, thank you.
>What do you guys and girl think?





My own feeling is that eventually there will have to be a new paradigm for 
the sale and distribution of music.

Copyright is a fluid concept. It has not always existed. It was invented 
for two main reasons: (1) was to protect consumers; (2) to overturn censorship.

Reason (1) is important because the biz is currently trying to protect 
itself rather than thinking about the consumer. To be more accurate, record 
companies are trying to protect their interests.

Personally, I don't think there's going to be any legislative will for 
copyright issues unless whatever is being done is 'popular' -- i.e. seen to 
be in the consumer's interests. It must be seen to be protecting not only 
artists, but what consumers have -- and it protects artists and authors 
because doing so is in the long-term in the consumers interests. So it 
seems to me that there's not really any way around acknowledging what 
consumers currently have as a de facto matter: that mp3 gives them the 
right to listen to music whenever THEY want and in a readily accessible 
form. As Dennis rightly said, there's simply no putting that genie back in 
the bottle and IMO it's foolish to try.

So how do we protect what consumers have got while allowing composers to 
earn a living?

Well ... I think it helps to go back to the intent of the original 
copyright laws, and to bear in mind how things were at that time.

I am not a lawyer or an expert in the history of intellectual property, but 
my understanding of the situation is as follows. If there is something 
factually inaccurate I'd be grateful if someone corrected it!!!

The basis of most copyright law (at least, in the West) was set out in 1710 
with the Statute of Anne which was passed by the British Parliament. The 
Statue of Anne broke the monopoly on publishing held by the "Worshipful 
Company of Stationers' and Newspaper Makers".
http://www.stationers.org/
This was basically an organization of booksellers. Importantly, it was 
pretty much owned and controller by the British Crown. Thus the Stationers 
were protected from outside competition -- much like the company or 
collective record companies are today.

One thing the Statute of Anne did by instituting copyright was create 'the 
public domain'. This really hurt the Stationers because one of their 
primary methods of controlling books and publishing was to set rules about 
who could and who could not publish what material. They alone could decide 
what was an infringement of their rights to copy and what was not. 
Basically, if you were not a member of this particular Guild then you 
pretty much couldn't publish anything at all because it what was 
unspecified what was free to be openly published and what was not. Pretty 
much, therefore, a closed shop.

Once the Statute had been passed, however, the only way to create or 
acquire a copyright was to produce a NEW work. Nothing that had already 
been printed was any longer protected so Guild members could not cry foul 
and had to put up with the free printing and publishing of works and books. 
That's to say, thanks to the Statute any book publisher -- whether a Guild 
member or not -- had the right to publish anything deemed in the public 
domain. Non-Stationer book publishers and sellers could now compete with 
Stationer ones on equal terms, and without fear of getting fined or put out 
of business. This, obviously, protected consumers because suddenly all book 
publishers were competing to produce non-protected or non-copyrighted 
works. Another thing that happened is that they were all also now competing 
on equal terms and with each other to find new authors who were writing new 
books. It was up to a publisher to decide whether or not that book was 
worth publishing and placing before the general public, and they and their 
authors were automatically protected whether, once again, they were Guild 
members of not.

The consumer was now being protected by copyright because the length of 
copyright was now restricted. After a certain period noone anywhere could 
any longer claim that they -- and only they -- had the right to publish a 
certain work. The benefit to consumers was tremendous.

However, whether or not the Statute of Anne was beneficial to authors was 
another matter. In point of fact, the benefit to authors was pretty minimal 
then, and has really remained pretty minimal if judged in terms of how the 
financial rewards of publishing (music and books) are divided up. There was 
now only one way an author or composer could be recompensed. He or she had 
to find a publisher. He or she had to assign their newly created work to 
that publisher. And then he or she had to leave it to the publisher to 
distribute that work to the public for a fee of which they got, in return, 
a proportion. So from the consumers point of view, until the Statute had 
been passed publishers had been running rampant with virtually no 
restrictions on what they could publish, what claims they could make etc. 
Also .... publishers had not been greatly interested in "new works" because 
this inevitably involved having to recompense some author or another..

__________________________
For anybody interested, the preamble to the Statute of Anne reads as follows:
"An act for the encouragement of learning, by vesting the copies of printed 
books in the authors or purchasers of such copies, during the times therein 
mentioned." "Whereas printers, booksellers, and other persons have of late 
frequently taken the liberty of printing, reprinting, and publishing, or 
causing to be printed, reprinted, and published, books and other writings, 
without the consent of the authors or proprietors of such books and 
writings, to their very great detriment, and too often to the ruin of them 
and their families: for preventing therefore such practices for the future, 
and for the encouragement of learned men to compose and write useful books; 
may it please your Majesty, that it may be enacted, and be it enacted by 
the Queen's most excellent majesty, by and with the advice and consent of 
the lords spiritual and temporal, and commons, in this present parliament 
assembled, and by the authority of the same; etc etc etc
___________________________



The other important benefit of the Statute of Anne was that it put an end 
to censorship. This is because it removed, from the Worshipful Company of 
Stationers' the right to "find and destroy" all books that the Company (and 
therefore the Crown) found to be "seditious, heretical, and schismatical". 
Well ... this could be pretty much anything the Crown didn't like, such as 
criticism of the Crown. With the Statute, however, the Company could no 
longer enforce anything because individual booksellers could now print and 
publish what they wanted. Crown and government control therefore largely 
dissipated.

In the 300 or so years since the Statute was passed the concept of 
copyright has been amended and extended and has also had to face the 
problem of changing technology. Which is pretty much the case today.

Seems to me that the 'problem' with mp3 is not protecting the rights of 
authors, but rather the claim of record companies that they and they alone 
can adequately protect the rights of music creators. This seems to me to be 
an extremely dubious claim to say the least, because there are other 
methods of distributing music.

IMO, some time very soon the concept of 'hard copy' in music (CD's, etc) 
will have to give way to the concept of 'flow' as a viable way to collect 
revenues from music. In my view, the 'flow' concept already exists. It 
seems to me that this is how many music rights organizations already operate.

As an example, the Performing Rights Society (based in London) charges the 
BBC, British radio stations, TV stations and the like a yearly fee. For 
payment of that yearly fee those broadcasting organizations have rights to 
a flow of music. This music has been produced by the members of the PRS, 
and the PRS has negotiated a fee whose value has been arbitrated largely by 
what the market will bear, and that occasionally involves litigation or 
else discussions in e.g. the House of Commons. Nevertheless, there is a fee.

Clubs, theatres, venues and the like all also pay a yearly licence fee for 
the right to use, on their premises, the music of the members of rights 
organizations. All such groups are then REQUIRED to keep a tally of exactly 
what they play, and when. The revenue stream gathered by the PRS and other 
such bodies is then distributed amongst the members according to a points 
scheme based largely on the returns provided of what has been played.

Notice that it's a yearly fee that's paid. And although a yearly fee is 
paid, neither the PRS nor the broadcasting organizations stipulate, at the 
time the contract is signed, the precise details of the music that is to be 
played. The BBC etc can play what they like. It's just music -- but they 
must provide a return, at year's end, of what they decided to play. It 
works similarly with the fees charged to clubs etc.

So ... all that needs to happen, I think, is for this concept of a "flow" 
of music to be extended out into other areas -- and ones that are likely to 
cover the mp3 "problem".

Imagine, for example, that you enroll in a fitness club -- or else that you 
stay overnight in a hotel. In order to make itself more attractive to its 
members, that club, hotel, or whatever has negotiated a contract with the 
group of Music Providers A, B, C ... M, N and O. What those Music Providers 
do is give that club or hotel access to a database of songs that is 
uploaded on a regular basis to some servers on the club's premises. Each 
Provider could, for example, specialize in provisioning a particular genre 
(country and western, jazz etc). Anything from which they feel they can 
make a living. As a member or guest of that hotel or club, one of the 
rights I have is to download any songs I feel like off their servers onto, 
for example, my mp3 player. I have paid for this by being a member of that 
club ... which in its turn has paid a Provisioner for access to those songs.

I could also enroll with a specialist Internet Music Provisioner which 
basically again gives me the right to download any songs I like.

Providers and Provisioners would then negotiate contracts with whatever 
artists, or else artists rights organizations, that they felt that they 
could sell. For example, if I make jazz music, then I could enroll with 
Jazz Creators Anonymous ... which would then, possibly, provide music for 
any Music Provisioners that approached it. A fee is settled ... of which I 
get a proportion. Each Provisioner and/or Creators Group would then 
recompense those artists whose music had been downloaded, most likely as a 
proportion of the fees collected.

So ... what is being provided is access to music ... and it is an access 
that is quite independent of whether or not it has even been pressed onto a 
CD -- which is the sole basis on which record companies operate. Just like 
the PRS is a completely independent entity from PPL with PPL (Phonographic 
Performance Ltd) making money from the fact that the most common method of 
broadcasting music over the radio and TV is to play the relevant CD. Record 
companies, obviously, get the money from PPL, and some of that money again 
goes to the artists. However, in the case of a live concert, for example, 
or the broadcasting of some obscure opera that is as yet unsigned, PRS 
STILL collects money while PPL does not because there is no recorded 
version. Whether or not PPL collects money ultimately depends on which 
version of which song a band may be playing and on the nature of their 
contract with their record company. But it is not quite the given that 
record companies like to make out.

Record shops would not be entirely redundant, because, in the same kind of 
way, they could negotiate as they do now to provide music in hard copy 
form. Its simply that the exclusivity they currently have would just have 
to go. If record shops did very little business then people are obviously 
getting their music elsewhere and in another form.

Obviously, if I am a rapper, I would try to track down every Rap 
Provisioners I could find and persuade them to offer my material as a part 
of their music stream. I would not have to exclusively assign myself to any 
one "stream". Popular artists would, for example, be able to position 
themselves across several different streams for each stream would probably 
try to find a niche market for itself by focussing on some city; some 
demographic; whatever the Provisioners felt was their strong point. If my 
music is part country, part Jazz, part Indian, then I could try placing 
myself with provisioners specializing in as many of these as I want.



As a consumer, I would always be on the like out for a Provisioning Service 
that service my needs in that it would allow me to download 'hot new music' 
onto either my hard drive or onto my portable player whenever I wanted. 
Whether or not e.g. clubs or universities and the like charged their 
customers for the music they were providing would be entirely up to them 
according as to what they thought the market would bear. Radio stations do 
not exactly charge for playing music ... although they do have to pay to 
play. They make their living from advertising, which they can do because 
they can deliver an audience to those who want to sell their products. E.g. 
in order to make itself attractive and competitive, a gym might allow its 
members to download a variety of music for 'nothing' because it was 
included in the membership subs.

No way to put the genie back in the bottle. I also think that it would be a 
lot more constructive for the music industry to come up with proposals that 
demonstrate some kind of benefit for the consumer instead of being narrowly 
focussed on its own self-interests, particularly when it's clear that the 
public is not very sympathetic on this issue. Personally, I do not see the 
benefit to the consumer of the present squabble over mp3 files and e.g. the 
attempt to create copy proof CD's. Record companies are -- rightly -- 
creating merry hell because an illegal COPY has been made. So ... remove 
the copying issue. So ... let people pay for the right to hear the music of 
their choice in the manner of their choice. It ain't all on CD. Point is 
... people can only come by music if someone PROVIDES it to them. 
Therefore, charge the providers. Charge them a yearly or monthly or 
whatever 'flow' fee.



In essence, and to partly answer Dennis Gunn's and Yoonchi's questions, I 
think this will eventually have to be done by artists. I think that only 
artists can fight record companies, get their contracts re-interpreted 
under law, and then set up new means of distribution for music that still 
respect their rights as composers and recognize their creative endeavours. 
These are ARTISTS' rights that the record companies think they have. They 
only become record company rights when record companies sign up artists. 
Artists can give consumers what they want -- which is basically a much more 
free and ready access to music then they are currently getting from record 
companies. Note that -- IMO, anyway -- it's record companies who are 
claiming to best represent artists' interests. Question: is it possible for 
there to be music without record companies. In my view, yes. Question: is 
it possible for there to be music without creators and players? In my view, 
no. Therefore, record companies are wrong if they pretend that they are 
somehow 'important' or 'vital'.

Frankly, I don't see record companies moving on this matter in a  way that 
is in the long-term beneficial to CONSUMERS because, frankly, what 
consumers seem to want is anathema to what record companies want. Consumers 
seem to want wider access to music -- and without having to buy CD's or 
music is any other solid form to get it. But that is the way that record 
companies survive.

So ... give consumers what they want. Give them CD-less music. Let them 
download music wherever and whenever they want onto whatever hardware 
player they like. But ... they have to download somehow and somewhere. And 
... to get their hands on that, they have to come to artists. Let them pay 
there.

Anyway ... those are my thoughts on the matter as they at present stand. 
Sorry to have written at such length.

But then hay ... you've all got delete buttons, haven't you!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Kool Music said lots of good stuff
<snippity snip snip snip>

Jaysus Kool!

Did you ever think of writing an article about this and sending to some
publication - wired, or some music based publication (non-industry of
course...but then again....).

You seem more than half-way to having figured out a viable alternative to
press(ure)play and its ilk.

Incidentally anybody see this yet?

http://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,50625,00.html

the plot thickens! If the record companies cant actually prove ownership of
the copyrights it'll set a nice precedent which will hopefully serve to stop
their attempt to get a throttle hold on music creation, promotion,
distribution etc...

What we really need is for EVERY new artist to refuse to sign away the
rights to their music. Like Arlo Guthrie said, if 1 person does it they'll
think hes nuts and throw him out, if two people do it they'll think they're
both nuts and throw them both out, but if EVERYBODY does it they'll realise
its a movement and they wont be able to throw us all out! ;-)

we live in interesting times... (isn't this a chinese curse??)
--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--

hey, all.....

>Joeri also said:
>>I'm convinced it's possible to get down illegal downloading to 10% or
>>so, just like real world pirating.
sounds pretty nice, but completely over-hopeful, to me.
a lateral example?
at the recent NAMM-show, i spoke w/3 major sample-disc manufacturers, who all 
--- independently of each other --- opined that the *theft-to-purchase* ratio 
in their musical niche is ten-to-one.....
best,
dt / splattercell

> >Joeri also said:
> >>I'm convinced it's possible to get down illegal downloading to 10% or
> >>so, just like real world pirating.

dt / splattercell said:
>sounds pretty nice, but completely over-hopeful, to me.
>a lateral example?
>at the recent NAMM-show, i spoke w/3 major sample-disc manufacturers, who all
>--- independently of each other --- opined that the *theft-to-purchase* ratio
>in their musical niche is ten-to-one.....

Sorry ... but ... still sounds on the low side to me!
 From what I've seen of what people get up to with those loops and samples, 
and the unconscionable way they behave, I reckon fifty-to-one would be much 
nearer the mark!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>Kool Music said:
><snippity snip snip snip>

Mark Lennox said:
>Jaysus Kool!
>
>Did you ever think of writing an article about this and sending to some
>publication - wired, or some music based publication

No ... I've not done that because, truthfully, I don't think it would do 
much good.
Truth is, I'm working on something a bit more substantive and pro-active 
than that.
In the end, things get done by action. I'm busy putting something together 
that I hope will do a lot more good in getting something done about this 
situation than just a load of articles. Once I've got my idea properly 
formulated, I'm hoping to be able to persuade someone to act on it.



>Incidentally anybody see this yet?
><http://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,50625,00.html>http<http://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,50625,00.html>://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,50625,00.html

Interesting.

>the plot thickens!
Indeed.

>  If the record companies cant actually prove ownership of
>the copyrights
They don't own copyrights. That's much the point as far as I'm concerned. 
If anyone owns copyrights then it's the original author -- who then assigns 
it to the publisher.

However, although that's the theory, it can be very difficult to make it 
work in practice. Lots of book authors find this. Their book doesn't sell 
as much as the book publisher wants, so the book publisher stops printing 
any more copies. So then the author wants to buy back their rights and get 
someone else to publish the book ... and the publishers don't want to 
release it in case something happens to it sometime over the next 30 years. 
And since the publishing company won't open up its accounts, the authors 
don't really have any information. Nasty business. Point being, the author 
can't go anywhere else until released by the original publisher. So yes, it 
is a bit difficult to decide who owns what. However, what the author wants 
to do is get someone else to publish the book which is a material thing in 
a different form and with a different publisher's name attached. An mp3 
file, however, is not a THING. Or at least ... this is arguable. Also, the 
publishing industry does not have to be taken as a model for the music one. 
It's just convenient for record companies if it's looked at that way.

>it'll set a nice precedent which will hopefully serve to stop
>their attempt to get a throttle hold on music creation, promotion,
>distribution etc...
Quite. I'm not in favour of consumers ripping artists off by copying music 
so freely, but I'm not a fan of record companies either.


>What we really need is for EVERY new artist to refuse to sign away the
>rights to their music.
Well ... they have to concede SOME rights otherwise whoever wants to 
promote them has no way of being recompensed for their efforts. It's just 
what and when and how much. At the moment, it's way too much, way too soon 
in the game, and for not enough moolah.

>Like Arlo Guthrie said, if 1 person does it they'll
>think hes nuts and throw him out, if two people do it they'll think they're
>both nuts and throw them both out, but if EVERYBODY does it they'll realise
>its a movement and they wont be able to throw us all out! ;-)
That makes you an old fogey my son. See you at that Restaurant. You're buying.




>we live in interesting times...
Indeed.

>isn't this a chinese curse??)

Actually ... seems not!!

There are two sources for it's supposed existence as an ancient Chinese curse.

One is when Robert Kennedy "quoted" it in a speech he gave in Cape Town in 
'66. He said: "There is a Chinese curse which says, 'May he live in 
interesting times.' Like it or not, we live in interesting times..."

That was when it started to become a commonplace expression, although to 
this day no Chinese people or scholars have validated it other than by 
saying that it's an expression they frequently hear thrown at them by 
Americans.


It's other known place is in a science fiction story in "Astounding Science 
Fiction" published some time in the '50s. (I've got a more exact reference 
sitting somewhere around here but can't be bothered to find it right now!!).

The story is called "U-Turn" and the lead character is called Mason. His 
life on the planets Venus and Mars is so tedious and humdrum that he's 
decided that assisted suicide is a far better option. He's also worked out 
that the so-called death chambers made available to him are in fact 
transporters that take people to a much better kind of life on Callisto 
which is exciting because it's in the middle of being explored and 
colonized. The authorities don't want this too widely known otherwise there 
would be a mass stampede. They're also called death chambers because 
although Callisto is the actual destination, only a small number of people 
actually survive the new dissociation-reassociation process used in the 
transporter. As his 'death wish' is about to be satisfied, Mason complains 
long and loud about the regulation, the bureaucracy, the order and the 
control under which everyone on Mars and Venus is forced to live. He then says:
"For centuries the Chinese used an ancient curse, 'May you live in 
interesting times!'. With us it isn't a curse any more. It's a blessing". 
I'm afraid I can't remember the rest.

But ... that's apparently the other source for this so-called ancient 
Chinese saying.

(For what it's worth, the "curse" is also apparently mentioned in Jung's 
writings, although nobody's quite sure where or when and if so where he got 
it from!!)



God but I'm a mine of totally USELESS information. Must wash that anorak 
some time!!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>
>
>Did you ever think of writing an article about this and sending to some
>publication - wired, or some music based publication (non-industry of
>course...but then again....).
>
Yes, Kool's "article" was very interesting, fully agreed!

>You seem more than half-way to having figured out a viable alternative to
>press(ure)play and its ilk.
>
Not really. He's just mentioned what already exists: the alternatives. 
What you mention below is "the alternative" to "end" the power of the 
majors: refusing to sign with them!

>Incidentally anybody see this yet?
>http://www.wired.com/news/mp3/0,1285,50625,00.html
>
Yes, very interesting. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves. I'm 
not sure the majors will win, since all contracts say that the majors 
have "an exclusive licence" and not "ownership". However, since the 
artists are paid for their sales etc, and promoted etc, I think they 
stand a good chance of winning it.

Also, the alternative is mentioned in that alternative: every artist 
will have to sue Napster himself. I'm an artist: do I have the money to 
sue Napster, from my little town in Belgium? Nope. So either artists 
come up with a platform for suing together, or Napster is saved by a 
court ruling. And even in the case of an artist platform, you're very 
close again to the platform of the record companies....

>the plot thickens! If the record companies cant actually prove ownership of
>the copyrights it'll set a nice precedent which will hopefully serve to stop
>their attempt to get a throttle hold on music creation, promotion,
>distribution etc...
>
No-one prevents an artist to do everything by themselves or use the 
alternatives.

>What we really need is for EVERY new artist to refuse to sign away the
>rights to their music.
>
Exactly. If you don't like the majors, then this is your best and only 
solution.

But I simply don't see why so many people hate the majors. Please 
explain to me. I'd love to understand your point of view (and I think I 
can counter many arguments with reasonable facts).

>we live in interesting times...
>
That's for sure!!!

Bye,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

> But I simply don't see why so many people hate the majors. Please
> explain to me. I'd love to understand your point of view (and I think I
> can counter many arguments with reasonable facts).
>

Fair enough, you made the point earlier about bad experiences being with A&R
etc. However for all intents and purposes these ARE the company. Also, the
majors seem to have more than a few layers of abstraction between themselves
and the marketplace shown by the continued success of indie artists in the
mainstream.

The current mainstream music scene is dominated by homogenity (within
genre...), I see that as being the biggest problem I have with major record
labels.

Second they do seem to be trying to exert a disproportionate amount of
control over distribution, marketing, copyright etc. That is worrying as the
whole idea of what copyright is has been overinflated in the eyes of those
who hold it and degraded in the eyes of those who should respect it.

OK, when majors do it right it can be a wonderful thing, however there are
so many people in the way down the line, not to mention the artists
management! Looking at the music industry from a business perspective it
could be viewed as a mugs game or the biggest scam going. Record company
contracts surely have to be the most water tight legal documents in the
world, they cover everything past, present and future.

Please feel free to pick holes (large) in the above argument :-)
--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--

>But I simply don't see why so many people hate the majors. Please
>explain to me. I'd love to understand your point of view (and I think I
>can counter many arguments with reasonable facts).

Subversion of art into enforced mediocrity.

Here Japan mainstream pop is brutally stupid. It's the same 
boyband/girlband phenomenon you see in the US and Europe only while 
the BB/GBs account for probably 5~10% of the pop over there, here 
they are 60% or 70% and of the remaining 30~40%, half or more are 
manufactured products just like the BB/GBs the only difference being 
that they are individuals rather than groups.

The BB/GBs here really take the phenomenon to it's extremes.  They 
are extremely young, the groups are extremely large (Morning Musume 
has ten girls and was established when they were almost all under 14) 
and they are extremely bad.  The majors here clearly like it that way 
because while real talent is unpredictable difficult to control and 
sometimes hard to find and manage, there will never ever be a 
shortage ambitious gullible mediocre teenagers who can be used and 
tossed away when they are worn out or they start getting uppity and 
hard to manage.

Exhibit A:

SmapXSmap the reigning kings of the genre have four members three of 
which can't sing at all and the remaining one of whom can sing 
somewhat but is basically forced to sing badly so he doesn't stick 
out.  They sing their songs in glorious four part unison, and even 
that is iffy.  The listener is lucky if they all come together within 
a semitone of the melody and a 16th note of the beat.  They don't 
write their own songs, the songs are written so as to be singable 
(almost) by people with their "musical abilities" and they can have a 
top ten hit whenever PonyCanyon (a Japanese label almost as big as 
Sony here) decides it's time, which is about half of the time in any 
given year.  They dominate TV/Radio with their weekly variety show, 
appearances doing endorsements in commercials, "acting" in weekly 
dramas, and in major movies.  These guys can't sing, can't act, and 
though they are athletic and extremely adept at following 
coreographed moves do not really dance gracefully.   Basically they 
are smart ambitious young guys who were recruited as teenagers to 
become stars but really have no special talents but whose lack of 
same did not stop the majors from shoving them down the ever 
accommodating Japanese public's throats.


The Japanese public and their seemingly complete lack of 
discrimination in matters of taste seems at least partly to blame but 
the majors work hard to keep them dumb  1. The majors control 
distribution for example PonyCanyon/Fuji TV same company.  2. Payola 
rules the radio (no pay no play period) no american style college 
stations and no airplay without a major budget for payola.  3. Radio 
alternatives are extremely limited because licensing is tightly 
controlled and there are quite few radio stations that you can hear 
in Tokyo so there is no real chance relief there.


I know that Japan is an extreme case but it does seem to be an 
indication of what things are like when the Majors can do whatever 
they want.

Dennis wrote some sad but funny stuff about the Jap Music biz,
and...........

"The listener is lucky if they all come together within
a semitone of the melody and a 16th note of the beat.  "

have they never heard of Auto tune or Vocalign??

(Or does he record them and get sick of leaving the above two permanently
"plugged in")

:-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Gunn" <dennisg@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 24 February 2002 02:10
Subject: Re: [L-OT] re: (OT) Bad News in Music INdustry / So the music
industry has legit thieves, now?


>

>Hard copy will always exist.

The best part of dance music/dj culture has always been vinyl.  Anyone
who is serious has to have it on vinyl.  Untill this year, it was almost
impossible to pirate music onto vinyl (too expensive, have to make so
many copies), but with the introduction of prosumer vinyl presses this
might change.

http://www.mixmachines.com/products/kingston.html

Things change!

chems
-- 
_____________________________________________
blue alien house inc.
http://www.galaxymall.com/site/bluealienhouse
an interstellar media-arts collective     
_____________________________________________

>Dennis wrote some sad but funny stuff about the Jap Music biz,
>and...........
>
>"The listener is lucky if they all come together within
>a semitone of the melody and a 16th note of the beat.  "
>
>have they never heard of Auto tune or Vocalign??
>
>(Or does he record them and get sick of leaving the above two permanently
>"plugged in")
>
>:-)

It's truly bizzare but they just don't seem to care.

I have worked twice with the one who can "kind of sing".  Once I was 
playing guitar in the band on their weekly TV show.  The other time I 
wrote lyrics for a commercial he sang and was asked to go to the 
session and help him with the English pronounciation.

When I was was on the TV show he and I were the only two things that 
were live and I was pretty surprised how well he actually could sing 
because their records *always* suck.

Then I when I went to the commercial session I saw how things worked.

They recorded basics of the song in a kind of high key and had me 
sing it so that this kid could have an idea how the lyrics were 
supposed to fit to the melody.  I make most of my living as a studio 
vocalist and I have a very broad range.  It was definitely high but 
it was a problem for me.  I was pretty sure it was going to be a 
problem for him though and I suggested that they lower the key.  Also 
I am an American, a native English speaker but this song was fast and 
the lyrics were pretty much a mouthful even for me.  The had the band 
stick around for the express purpose of redoing the tune in case the 
key was not right.  But did they lower it.

The "producer" (means a completely different thing here) was much 
more interested in speaking at length on his favorite topics: his car 
and himself.

So after a while in comes this poor asshole to the session.  He's 
heard the melody but hasn't seen the lyrics and does not really have 
much of a command of English.  I read through the lyrics with him a 
couple of times then off he went.  He was straining and cracking and 
shouting out is best near misses of the high notes but he just could 
not quite reach them and his distress was exacerbated by the fact 
that he was trying to do this stuff in very fast English with some 
kind of tricky syncopations.  He almost pulled it off but it was just 
too high.  He kept at it for about an hour but of course his voice 
was getting more and more tired with each take.

Every one could see by the second attempt (of many) that the tune was 
too high so I once again suggested to the producer that they lower 
the key.  He stopped his monolog about cigars and the vintage SG he 
was going to buy long enough to give me the polite "no fucking way am 
I going to take you seriously peanut" smile and said "I like the way 
it sounds like he is straining and can't quite do it".

So once again this poor yuk sucked in front millions of Japanese fans 
for no discernable except perhaps that the dumbassed producer didn't 
like being interrupted by uppity foreigners wanting to talk about 
work when he was discoursing on how highschool girls liked the sexy 
way his stomach dribbled over his belt.

At the end of that day I was actually in the strange position of 
feeling sorry for that poor jerk who at that point was richer than 
the pope and at any given moment has 100 thousand nubile Japanese 
babes getting their shiny spandex thongs all wet and melting into 
little blobs of hello kitty fuzz at the thought of sharing bathtub 
with him.

> I agree. Vinyl is still the only thing 

AFAIK the Kingston isn't out yet, but Vestax has had a burner out since
fall.  $9,999.00

http://www.pssl.com/bitemdetail.tpl?command=search&eqint_KeyIDdata=21106&db=search/maindb.txt&UID=2002022404090923

I admit, I'd love to have one.

chems
_____________________________________________
blue alien house inc.
http://www.galaxymall.com/site/bluealienhouse
an interstellar media-arts collective     
_____________________________________________

Thoughts from the mind of blue alien, 24-02-2002:

>  >Hard copy will always exist.
>
>The best part of dance music/dj culture has always been vinyl.

Yeah, vinyl melts a lot easier than CDs do... :-))

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

Dennis Gunn wrote:

>Subversion of art into enforced mediocrity.
<snip>

and ... (in a different mailing)

>It's truly bizzare but they just don't seem to care.
<snap>

John Matthews then pertinently wrote:
 > Dennis wrote some sad but funny stuff
 > about the Jap Music biz, ...
<snippety snop>

Yes Dennis -- thanks very much recounting those experiences.
Shades of what it's like in a media empire !!!!!!!

Kool Musick
Keep Musick Kool


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Dennis Wrote:-
"I make most of my living as a studio
vocalist and I have a very broad range.  It was definitely high but
it was a problem for me.  I was pretty sure it was going to be a
problem for him though and I suggested that they lower the key.  "

How high is high?? Offspring high or Sting high (I can sing all Offspring
tunes and most rock songs, being a singer/bass/guitar player in a rock band)
but Some of the Police tunes are just a bit high without going into
falsetto.

This Jap pop sounds so bad its funny. Could you post a real audio so we can
all have a good laugh (or cry) :-)

cheers

John

>Dennis Wrote:-
>"I make most of my living as a studio
>vocalist and I have a very broad range.  It was definitely high but
>it was a problem for me.  I was pretty sure it was going to be a
>problem for him though and I suggested that they lower the key.  "

That should have read it was "not" a problem for me.

>How high is high?? Offspring high or Sting high (I can sing all Offspring
>tunes and most rock songs, being a singer/bass/guitar player in a rock band)
>but Some of the Police tunes are just a bit high without going into
>falsetto.

I can't remember what the key of the song was but the high notes were 
probably in the A  or B range.

I am a natural baritone butI can sing from a D below a guitar D to an 
F like the one you get when you fret the high E string on your guitar 
at the 13th fret without going into falsetto.  Whether I can sing it 
in a way that is appropriate to the tune is another matter and 
depends on the tune.

Don't get me wrong I don't think there is any shame in having a 
limited range.  The reason I do is that I started out as singer in 
the 70s and back in those days you were not considered a *real man* 
unless you could scream like a squeezed castratti so after 20+ years 
of pointless self abuse I finally managed to get to where I could 
consistently squeeze out the squeakers which actually helps me now 
because the nature of my work (mainly singing in commercials) places 
a premium on versitality.  Artistically it is really meaningless.

>This Jap pop sounds so bad its funny. Could you post a real audio so we can
>all have a good laugh (or cry) :-)

Interesting request in light of the topic but I will see what I can 
dig up for you.  I don't buy this stuff so there isn't any in the 
house.  I don't keep it indoors for fear of curdling my milk and 
blackening my bananas.

I should clarify that there is plenty of truly phenomenal talent in 
this country just not very much of it in the mainstream.

I will even qualify that.  Even in the mainstream there are some very 
remarkable musicians.  All though his voice is a bit grating Hotei is 
a pretty incredible guitarist as is the guitarist for a band called 
the B's

>
>
>>This Jap pop sounds so bad its funny. Could you post a real audio so we can
>>all have a good laugh (or cry) :-)
>>
>Interesting request in light of the topic but I will see what I can 
>dig up for you.
>
Do you know the title/group name of such a "project"? I'd love to have a 
listen myself as well. :-)
Your descriptions really sounded hilarious, and we don't have any 
japanese music at all over here.

Ciao,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

in regards to dennis' post, joeri@... writes:

>Your descriptions really sounded hilarious,
..... i thought it sounded phenomenally depressing, myself.....
in fact, i was gonna suggest to dg that maybe he's at the point where he 
oughta leave japan, as it sounds like he's really getting to hate it, 
there.....

>and we don't have any 
>japanese music at all over here.
??? really ???
dj krush? takemura? sakamoto? kk null? etc?
best,
dt / splattercell

>
>
>>Your descriptions really sounded hilarious,
>>
>..... i thought it sounded phenomenally depressing, myself.....
>
It ain't any better over here.

>>and we don't have any 
>>japanese music at all over here.
>>
>??? really ???
>dj krush? takemura? sakamoto? kk null? etc?
>
None I'm afraid. :-( Never heard of any (except perhaps Sakamoto? Is 
that the guy that makes film scores etc?) Really no music from Asia on 
our market. A pity, but true.

Bye,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>  >
>>
>>>This Jap pop sounds so bad its funny. Could you post a real audio so we can
>>>all have a good laugh (or cry) :-)
>>>
>>Interesting request in light of the topic but I will see what I can
>>dig up for you.
>>
>Do you know the title/group name of such a "project"? I'd love to have a
>listen myself as well. :-)

No you wouldn't.


BUT:  Just to let everyone know; it is not that I am forgetting this 
request, it's just I am just procrastinating feverishly.  Contact 
with that stuff often causes an uncomfortable rash in unreachable 
places.  On the nights after prolonged exposure I find myself waking 
from somnambulistic excursions in the garden trying to scratch the 
after images off of my eardrums with a broken twigs.

I missed an opportunity last night to catch a rather ripe specimen of 
the SmapXSmap sound from their weekly television show.  My girlfriend 
was watching it and, even though she is a Japanese woman, and 
therefore has the incredibly high bullshit threshold that is an 
indigenous trait, even she couldn't stand yesterday's episode and had 
to switch it off because it causing her pubic hairs to go straight.

So it may take a week or so but I should soon be able to share the 
torment of the SmapXSmap with all of you lucky people.  Next monday 
night will find me at the ready with my video tape in the VCR.

Have faith soon you too will suffer.

Retch and roll forever.


>Your descriptions really sounded hilarious, and we don't have any
>japanese music at all over here.

Well actually you do.  There are also absolutely wonderful Japanese 
artists and some that are not exactly Japanese but make Japan Their 
base.

My good friends eX-girl have just embarked on their 2002 European 
tour.  Although they look and speak remarkably like three Japanese 
girls (and that is always a good thing) eX-Girl are not actually from 
Japan but are from the planet Kero-Kero where there is music but 
there are no musical instruments.  They have been on earth for about 
for years and within three months of arriving here and picking up 
musical instruments for the first time they were out doing the club 
circuit.  Their albums are available in Japan Europe and the US.

They are more fun than a barrel full of rubber crutches and are truly 
a must see.

There may be more details about their exact whereabouts on their 
website http://0505.net/ex-girl/.  If you are interested you'd better 
check it out fast though because their tour has already begun.

Aah, the japanese version of the Powerpuff Girls!
http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/POWERPUFF/

ewald


eX-Girl are not actually from 
> Japan but are from the planet Kero-Kero where there is music but 
> there are no musical instruments.  They have been on earth for 
about 
> for years and within three months of arriving here and picking up 
> musical instruments for the first time they were out doing the club 
> circuit.  Their albums are available in Japan Europe and the US.
> 
> They are more fun than a barrel full of rubber crutches and are 
truly 
> a must see.
> 
> There may be more details about their exact whereabouts on their 
> website http://0505.net/ex-girl/.  If you are interested you'd 
better 
> check it out fast though because their tour has already begun.

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:
> >  >
> >>
> >>>This Jap pop sounds so bad its funny. Could you post a real 
audio so we can
> >>>all have a good laugh (or cry) :-)
> >>>
> >>Interesting request in light of the topic but I will see what I 
can
> >>dig up for you.
> >>
> >Do you know the title/group name of such a "project"? I'd love to 
have a
> >listen myself as well. :-)
> 
> No you wouldn't.
> 
> 
> BUT:  Just to let everyone know; it is not that I am forgetting 
this 
> request, it's just I am just procrastinating feverishly.  Contact 
> with that stuff often causes an uncomfortable rash in unreachable 
> places.  On the nights after prolonged exposure I find myself 
waking 
> from somnambulistic excursions in the garden trying to scratch the 
> after images off of my eardrums with a broken twigs.
> 
> I missed an opportunity last night to catch a rather ripe specimen 
of 
> the SmapXSmap sound from their weekly television show.  My 
girlfriend 
> was watching it and, even though she is a Japanese woman, and 
> therefore has the incredibly high bullshit threshold that is an 
> indigenous trait, even she couldn't stand yesterday's episode and 
had 
> to switch it off because it causing her pubic hairs to go straight.
> 
> So it may take a week or so but I should soon be able to share the 
> torment of the SmapXSmap with all of you lucky people.  Next monday 
> night will find me at the ready with my video tape in the VCR.
> 
> Have faith soon you too will suffer.
> 
> Retch and roll forever.

ROTFL. This is hilarious stuff!
Maybe we should torture Dennis with something of K3. What do you 
think, Joeri? :-)).

Yoonchi.

Dennis, I just checked your link... never heard of that... ehm.... group?
I tried to listen to something, but it's realaudio and that's never 
worked on my system for one reason or the other. :(

I've taken a look where they're playing and after seeing what places 
they're playing, I knew enough. :-)
Those are 'not the most common' places, to put it kindly. :-) (one of 
the places, called "Botanique" is sometimes OK though)

Yoonchi wrote:

>Maybe we should torture Dennis with something of K3. What do you 
>think, Joeri? :-)).
>
Yoonchi, don't be so cruel please. :-))) You should have been banned for 
mentioning K3. ;-)))))
Like it or not, but K3 has been selling like crazy over here. And now 
there's the MKids and they are selling even better than K3.
Looks like kid-music is doing very well these days.
Are they selling in Holland too?

Anyway, for those wanting to know the stunning high quality of the 
Belgian music market: here you go:  http://www.k3.be/K3/
Enjoy/good luck. :-)))

Cheers,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

>
>
>Aah, the japanese version of the Powerpuff Girls!
>http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/POWERPUFF/
>
I didn't even know the existence of the "original" Powerpuff girls. :-)

Isn't there anything a bit more "serious" out there? Some homepages of 
something you could call "well selling japanese pop artists"?

Cheers,
Joeri

-- 
Joeri Vankeirsbilck
joeri@...

Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Joeri Vankeirsbilck wrote:
> >
> >
> >Aah, the japanese version of the Powerpuff Girls!
> >http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/POWERPUFF/
> >
> I didn't even know the existence of the "original" Powerpuff 
girls. :-)
> 
> Isn't there anything a bit more "serious" out there? Some homepages 
of 
> something you could call "well selling japanese pop artists"?

This may not be the pop category but Kitaro is pretty famous. A new 
age artist, if I recall. His page: 
http://www.op.net/~kitaro/Kitaro5.htm

Ruichi Sakamoto is pretty well known in the west, and that Ken Iishi 
dude, but he's a DJ. :-).

Yoonchi.

>Aah, the japanese version of the Powerpuff Girls!
>http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/POWERPUFF/
>
>ewald

Actually at least one of the English Language theme songs on the on 
show are sung by Shonen Knife an all girl power Trio who are much 
more well known in the U.S. and Europe than in their native Japan. 
Shonen Knife are great fun and even as rudimentary as their music is, 
it's still way more happnin' than most of the Pop Pollution you hear 
around here.  The fact that they had to go outside their Country to 
get a deal only underscores my point that the majors here are 
basically just a bunch of evil gangs.

>  >
>  >
>>Aah, the japanese version of the Powerpuff Girls!
>  >http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/POWERPUFF/
>>
>I didn't even know the existence of the "original" Powerpuff girls. :-)
>
>Isn't there anything a bit more "serious" out there?

You might try Looking for something by Utada Hikaru.  She is a huge 
star here and attempted a forced entry into the US market about 2 
years ago.  She can sing reasonably well which makes people here 
crank their heads around to the "he hears his masters voice" angle 
and say "what's that sound".  Unfortunately for her she thought that 
being better than 98% of the singers in her country meant that she 
was great rather than merely good which would have been true anyplace 
else but....


>Some homepages of
>something you could call "well selling japanese pop artists"?

There is no such phenomenon as Japanese artist selling well outside 
of Japan.  A I take that back Sakamoto Kyu had a big hit in the 60's 
that is still often remade.  Ue Wo Mite Arukou was release in the US 
under the title Sukiyaki (totally absurd title as it has nothing to 
do with the song).  Sakamoto's version is a classic he had a 
wonderful voice.  He died alone with something 480 other people in 
1986 in what was at the time the worst plane crash ever.

Thanks Dennis,
the X-girl audio is very interesting in an original quirky kind of way, but
I'm curious to hear just one example of the really "bad" pop you have talked
about.

As Frank Zappa once said "Talking about music is like eating tennis".  :-)

J

Yes, they are *hot* now in Holland and this is first hand information 
(having a 3,8 and 10 year old kid). I actually surprises me, compared 
to 'cool' acts like Britney Spears, Outkast and Destiny's Child they 
have an attitude that appeals to the "child within a child", so to 
speak. Also the fact that they sing in their native language (dutch) 
will have contributed to their success.
 
> mentioning K3. ;-)))))
> Like it or not, but K3 has been selling like crazy over here. And 
now 

> there's the MKids and they are selling even better than K3.
> Looks like kid-music is doing very well these days.
> Are they selling in Holland too?
> 
> Anyway, for those wanting to know the stunning high quality of the 
> Belgian music market: here you go:  http://www.k3.be/K3/
> Enjoy/good luck. :-)))
> 
> Cheers,
> Joeri
> 
> -- 
> Joeri Vankeirsbilck
> joeri@b...
> 
> Belway Productions      -     http://www.belway.com
> List-admin   Logic-users/SoundD*ver-users/Logic-TDM

Dennis Gunn <dennisg@...> wrote:

>
>My good friends eX-girl have just embarked on their 2002 European
>tour.  Although they look and speak remarkably like three Japanese
>girls (and that is always a good thing) eX-Girl are not actually from
>Japan but are from the planet Kero-Kero where there is music but
>there are no musical instruments.  They have been on earth for about
>for years and within three months of arriving here and picking up
>musical instruments for the first time they were out doing the club
>circuit.  Their albums are available in Japan Europe and the US.
>
>They are more fun than a barrel full of rubber crutches and are truly
>a must see.
>
>There may be more details about their exact whereabouts on their
>website http://0505.net/ex-girl/.  If you are interested you'd better
>check it out fast though because their tour has already begun.


Don't know why I even checked this out but I did..
(and you gotta love some of those song titles...)
I'd especially like to see a performance  of their song
'Cucumbersurrender' . it could help clarify my confusion
as to what this actually means...heheh... Well, OK, probably not....

S.
--