Yahoo Groups archive

The Logic Off Topic list

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:27 UTC

Thread

Re : Waves Plugs

Re : Waves Plugs

2002-04-16 by TazmnianDv@aol.com

After reading this article in today's Los Angeles Times, I am going to 
think hard and twice before buying any Waves Products (since they are an 
Israeli company). Maybe we can vote with our pocketbooks to show that we 
reject full scale military attacks on innocent civilians and ethnic 
cleansing.

April 15, 2002  
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-000026946apr15.story?coll=
la%2Dheadlines%2Dworld%2Dmanual

'They Forced Me to Hate'
 By T. CHRISTIAN MILLER, TIMES STAFF WRITER
JENIN, West Bank -- Lukea Tomei could only watch through a peephole as 
one neighbor was shot, his arms in the air. She cried out when she saw an 
elderly woman blasted by a sniper.
But she could stay still no longer when she saw a little girl wandering 
through a mine-filled street.
"The soldiers told me not to go out, but I didn't listen to them," said 
Tomei, a Palestinian nurse who rushed outside to snatch the girl to 
safety. "I could not sit by any longer." Nearly two weeks after the 
Israeli army launched the bloodiest battle in the West Bank since the 
1967 Middle East War, there is growing testimony that its victory at the 
Jenin refugee camp was marred by human rights violations.
Israeli soldiers shot unarmed civilians, bulldozed people alive and 
blocked access to medical care, according to more than a dozen witnesses 
who spoke Sunday in a temporary shelter just outside the smoldering camp.
Their accounts, which could not be independently confirmed, painted a 
picture of a vicious house-to-house battle in which Israeli soldiers 
faced Palestinian gunmen intermixed with the camp's civilian population.
Israeli forces escorted a group of reporters into the blasted camp Sunday 
for the first time since the start of the offensive. The body of one 
bearded Palestinian gunman lay in the street, covered with flies. Homes 
and other buildings were flattened. Israeli soldiers said they had found 
booby traps throughout the camp.
Israeli officers said they had almost achieved their objective of ridding 
the camp of militants, noting that half the suicide bombers who have 
killed scores of Israelis during the last 18 months came from the Jenin 
camp, which was established in 1953.
But late in the day, after the group of reporters had left this city, 
fighting flared anew. Explosions that locals said were charges designed 
to blow down doors could be heard. Machine-gun fire rattled, and tank 
fire boomed. Black smoke billowed from one side of the camp, once home to 
13,000 refugees.
A local man, speaking by telephone, said that few people remained in the 
camp, which lacked water and telephone service, though power was restored 
late Sunday.
"We are in despair," said the man, who identified himself as Waleed 
Zagha, a father of three. "We can smell the rotting bodies."
The Israeli officials put the number of dead at 23 Israeli soldiers and 
about 70 Palestinians, though they said more bodies might be found under 
25-foot-high piles of rubble. Palestinians have insisted that between 300 
and 500 people were killed in almost two weeks of fighting.
The final toll may remain controversial. On Sunday, Israel's Supreme 
Court denied a bid by Israeli Arab politicians and human rights groups to 
block the burial of bodies by the army. It said the army was entitled to 
bury the dead if Palestinian authorities failed to do so, although it 
recommended that the International Committee of the Red Cross be involved.
Military officials denied that any massacres or human rights violations 
had taken place.
"Most of the houses we approached on entering the camp were empty [of 
civilians]. The camp was ready for war," Lt. Yoni Wolff, commander of a 
platoon involved in the battle, told reporters. "We saw very few 
civilians. Some old ladies and children were made to hold a gun in front 
of terrorists to make it hard for us to fight back."
Many of those who fled the camp in the last few days have wound up at the 
headquarters of the local Muslim charity and school, where about 2,000 
people were packed into two buildings without running water.
There, as tanks rumbled through the city's deserted and devastated 
streets, more than a dozen witnesses independently described a pattern of 
attacks against civilian targets that began April 3, the first day of the 
Israeli assault, and continued until Saturday, when the camp was nearly 
vacated.
Many of those interviewed said they had seen Israeli soldiers shoot at 
unarmed civilians or bulldoze occupied houses. Others said Israeli 
soldiers had prevented wounded people from seeking medical treatment.
Still others said Israeli soldiers had detained them and threatened them 
with death before releasing them.
On the first night of the invasion, Tomei ran from a United Nations 
clinic in the camp to seek shelter in the nearby home of a cousin. Later, 
as she watched through a peephole, she saw a man walk into the street, 
holding his stomach, she said.
"He had no guns. He said: 'I want a doctor. I want to go to the 
hospital,' " Tomei said. "They shot him."
Tomei and a second witness, Baha Awad, 20, a worker for the Palestinian 
ambulance service, also described an incident in the early days of the 
invasion when Israeli soldiers ordered a family out of a house with 
loudspeakers, then proceeded to bulldoze it.
The family ran out, screaming that they had been forced to leave behind 
their mentally handicapped son. Army officials denied that they had 
buried civilians alive.
"We never bulldozed houses if we knew civilians were inside, only when 
firing persisted despite our repeated calls for surrender," Wolff told 
reporters.
The battle grew heated in the center of the camp, in two neighborhoods 
known as Al Damaj and Al Hawashin.
There, Israeli and Palestinian sources said, about 200 Palestinian 
fighters holed up in various homes, vowing to fight to the end. At least 
13 Israeli soldiers were killed by an explosion in the area Tuesday. That 
represented the Israel Defense Forces' heaviest loss in a single incident 
since 1997.
Gasan Haija, 22, who identified himself as a Palestinian fighter, said 
the Palestinians managed to get into positions all around the Israelis in 
the two neighborhoods, which are filled with winding alleys only a few 
feet wide.
Haija, who said he was throwing pipe bombs from a home, was shot by a 
sniper. On Sunday, he lay in a bed in the temporary shelter, a metal bolt 
protruding from his shattered leg and a bullet wound in his side.
"They got stuck in the middle of the camp. That was where they ran into 
trouble," he said.
In the confusing days at the beginning of the battle, camp residents 
said, the Israelis brought in helicopter gunships to provide cover for 
bulldozers to knock down buildings and clear out the warren of alleyways 
in the camp's center.
Kamel Ali, 48, said his son and a friend, both 20, were fleeing from one 
home to another April 5 when a rocket struck, killing both young men. Ali 
said neither was armed.
A few days later, on April 8, Ali and four other men were rounded up by 
Israeli soldiers, taken outside and made to strip. One man who said he 
spoke Hebrew said he heard the soldiers discussing whether to execute the 
men in a store or beside a car. The men, frightened, wrote their names on 
a nearby wall as a memorial to their killings.
Then, after three hours, the Israelis handed the men white T-shirts and 
told them to leave the camp.
"Such acts only solidify hatred in our children, when they see such 
humiliating things," said one of the men, Mohammed Hamed, 52.
Not far away that same day at the camp clinic, said Awad, the emergency 
worker, Israeli soldiers entered the facility, hit and slapped several 
people, including himself, and told them to leave.
"They said: 'You'll take out explosives in your ambulances. You're just 
treating terrorists,' " Awad said.
Tomei, meanwhile, remained locked in her cousin's house, terrified of 
leaving. One day, she said, an elderly woman who was staying with the 
family went to the bathroom to wash herself for prayers.
As she came out, a soldier in an apartment across the street heard the 
noise of the door opening and fired several shots through it, killing the 
old woman.
But the final straw for her, Tomei said, came when she looked out the 
window and saw the little girl, who seemed as if she had only just 
learned to walk, tottering alone through the streets.
Tomei rushed out and scooped her up despite soldiers' protests. Family 
friends now have the child, but Tomei said several people have told her 
that the girl's parents were killed during the invasion.
"I believe in peace and harmony. I have never hated the Jews," Tomei 
said. "But now, they have forced me to hate them."

Re : Waves Plugs

2002-04-16 by steve@maestrosteve.com

>
>Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 02:39:45 EDT
>    From: TazmnianDv@...
>Subject: Re : Waves Plugs
>
>After reading this article in today's Los Angeles Times, I am going to
>think hard and twice before buying any Waves Products (since they are an
>Israeli company). Maybe we can vote with our pocketbooks to show that we
>reject full scale military attacks on innocent civilians and ethnic
>cleansing.

The rest of this post was cut.

This is WAY OFF TOPIC.
Are you looking for an argument here?
Do you believe everything you read regarding the Middle East?

Take your prejudice  and anti-semetic remarks and shove them where 
the sun don't shine!

To the rest of the group, please accept my apologies for being 
off-topic.  This guy just used "Waves Plugs", as a means to spew his 
crap.

Steve

[L-OT] Re : Waves Plugs

2002-04-16 by Dennis Gunn

>After reading this article in today's Los Angeles Times, I am going to
>think hard and twice before buying any Waves Products (since they are an
>Israeli company). Maybe we can vote with our pocketbooks to show that we
>reject full scale military attacks on innocent civilians and ethnic
>cleansing.

Good idea.  I'm already boycotting Israeli Pizza parlours and busses.

Re: Re : Waves Plugs

2002-04-16 by ewald_kegel

That's Ok with me, if you promise me to:

- not to buy any clothing produced by children under 12
- not to buy any computer hardware from countries where people are 
being suppressed and underpaid

Ewald

--- In logic-ot@y..., TazmnianDv@a... wrote:
> After reading this article in today's Los Angeles Times, I am going 
to 
> think hard and twice before buying any Waves Products (since they 
are an 
> Israeli company). Maybe we can vote with our pocketbooks to show 
that we 
>

Re: [L-OT] Re : Waves Plugs

2002-04-16 by Denizen

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 steve@... wrote:

> >    From: TazmnianDv@...
> >Subject: Re : Waves Plugs
> >
> >After reading this article in today's Los Angeles Times, I am going to
> >think hard and twice before buying any Waves Products (since they are an
> >Israeli company). Maybe we can vote with our pocketbooks to show that we
> >reject full scale military attacks on innocent civilians and ethnic
> >cleansing.
>
> The rest of this post was cut.
>
> This is WAY OFF TOPIC.
> Are you looking for an argument here?
> Do you believe everything you read regarding the Middle East?
>
> Take your prejudice  and anti-semetic remarks and shove them where
> the sun don't shine!

Just wanted to point out that nothing in his post was anti-semitic.

Opposing military action against civilians by a country's government is
completely different than attacking the ethnic/religious group of which
that country is comprised.

It's frustrating to hear cries of "anti-semite" at every (justified)
criticism of Israel's military action.

Of course it's probably not fair to blame Waves for the actions of their
government.  I certainly wouldn't want to be blamed for all the people the
U.S. kills overseas.  But if it somehow turned out that the audio geeks at
Waves were militant Israeli nationalists that supported occupation of the
West Bank, I'd immediately download all their cracked plug-ins :-)

-Denizen

Re: [L-OT] Re : Waves Plugs

2002-04-16 by Mark Lennox

> >After reading this article in today's Los Angeles Times, I am going to
> >think hard and twice before buying any Waves Products (since they are an
> >Israeli company). Maybe we can vote with our pocketbooks to show that we
> >reject full scale military attacks on innocent civilians and ethnic
> >cleansing.

yeah, whatever.

> This is WAY OFF TOPIC.
> Are you looking for an argument here?
> Do you believe everything you read regarding the Middle East?
> Take your prejudice  and anti-semetic remarks and shove them where
> the sun don't shine!

ehhh..... pot, kettle, black?
It is still unclear what exactly is going on. I think it is safe to assume
that the Israelis (who just happen to be jewish..) are as capable as any
nation of atrocities. Any right minded person would roundly condemn BOTH
sides.

I heard today that independent observers are finally allowed into some of
the occupied camps, we may begin to see some of the truth.

> To the rest of the group, please accept my apologies for being
> off-topic.  This guy just used "Waves Plugs", as a means to spew his
> crap.
> Steve

and are you using your position as a mediator of the group to spew yours?
CNN is not a basis for informed decision making. Read a little first before
condeming people as anti-semetic.

Please, lets not have a flame-war about this, people's views are very
extreme when it comes to war. Nobody outside of those involved really know
the truth yet. Conjecture does not help at this point.

If you want to help give money to the red cross/crescent and petition the UN
or/and the US to step in as a peacekeeping force.
--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--
----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <steve@...>
To: <logic-ot@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 8:37 AM
Subject: [L-OT] Re : Waves Plugs

OT^2: Israelis with big guns.

2002-04-16 by Denizen

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Mark Lennox wrote:

> I heard today that independent observers are finally allowed into some of
> the occupied camps, we may begin to see some of the truth.

...Yeah, the Israeli military has not allowed the international press into
these occupied territories to verify Palestinian claims that hundreds of
civilians have been slaughtered (which the Israelis deny, of course), but
this footage that was taken by an Israeli soldier leaked out, and is not
good PR, apparently:

http://cbc.ca/clips/ram-lo/macdonald_censored020318.ram

-Denizen

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.