The Logic Off Topic list

OK, I like making music on a Mac.  I am considering moving to the
PC platform if I can get lots more horsepower for my money, while
avoiding all the  setup conflicts endemic to the PC platform.

So, I need recommendations of companies or individuals who will put
together a killer machine for a good price, optimized for music production
with Logic.  In the Los Angeles area would be best.  I have found
http://www.dawbox.com , any comments on them?

Please don't flame me, I work with Linux, NT and Windows 2000 PCs,
SGIs, and Macs.  I am quite capable of learning the nasty lessons of
IRQ conflicts, etc.  I am sure that in time I would have to get know that
stuff anyway.  But right now I want a system I can plug in, turn on, and
start making music with.

Thank you greatly, O great gurus of hardware software music life money love
happiness...

  -smeet

--- In logic-ot@y..., "Sumit Das" <smeet@i...> wrote:
> OK, I like making music on a Mac.  I am considering moving to 
the
> PC platform if I can get lots more horsepower for my money, 
--

hi,
i cant help with suggestions, but i'm sure quite a few of us would 
be interested in your experiences (especially regarding the more 
horsepower question) of moving from mac to pc due to the fact 
it's a rare move - keep us posted please :-)

andy

>--- In logic-ot@y..., "Sumit Das" <smeet@i...> wrote:
>>  OK, I like making music on a Mac.  I am considering moving to
>the
>>  PC platform if I can get lots more horsepower for my money,
>--
>
>hi,
>i cant help with suggestions, but i'm sure quite a few of us would
>be interested in your experiences (especially regarding the more
>horsepower question) of moving from mac to pc due to the fact
>it's a rare move - keep us posted please :-)
>

I am in the middle of this exact process and this 14 year Mac user 
who never had any opinion about PCs one way or the other is finally 
learning why people bitch so much about PCs.

I am learning oh so many things that I didn't and don't want to know.

The up side:

Yes the PC is much more powerful and there is more software.

The down side:

Everything else.

Smeet wrote:
  I am quite capable of learning the nasty lessons of
>IRQ conflicts, etc.  I am sure that in time I would have to get know that
>stuff anyway.  But right now I want a system I can plug in, turn on, and
>start making music with.

Nice idea but somehow I think this is an illusion you are chasing. Nothing
stands still  -- OS patches, hardware drivers, Logic updates, new system
problems crop up. Chances are you will want to change settings or update
things or want to know how your software (OS, hardware drivers) is
configured -- it might be a day or a week or a month (unlikely) but you
will want to change the magic configuration that "just works out of the
box" -- especially if it doesn't. 

It is pretty hard to even install new upgrades without having to decide on
OS settings (will you let  a Logic upgrade install DirectX or change Vcache
settings etc). Building it yourself in the first place means you know what
is in there and everything that was done to it from scratch. If you need to
reinstall anything there will be no mystery -- you've already done it.  All
that knowledge is power -- without it you are impotent in the face of
gremlins that bedevil every computer system from time to time.  If you
don't want to face this reality using a computer as a DAW is a bad idea.
The idea of disconnecting every cable and dragging the tower case back
across town  to some turnkey dealer because there some annoying little
problem sounds like a bad idea to me. 

The main thing you need to do to get a good DAW on Wintel is to find a set
of  hardware components that will work together with your software on your
choice of OS. If you don't want to get your hands under the hood, any clone
dealer can put a box together in an afternoon -- just pick a configuration
that others are reporting success with on the LUG and replicate it.

Regards,
Murray

> OK, I like making music on a Mac.  I am considering moving to the
> PC platform if I can get lots more horsepower for my money, while
> avoiding all the  setup conflicts endemic to the PC platform.
        :
        :
> Please don't flame me, I work with Linux, NT and Windows 2000 PCs,
> SGIs, and Macs.  I am quite capable of learning the nasty lessons of
> IRQ conflicts, etc.  I am sure that in time I would have to get know that
> stuff anyway.  But right now I want a system I can plug in, turn on, and
> start making music with.

Further to Dennis and Murrays comments on the negative aspects of DAW
builders I would also suggest building your own system. I will be building
my own system soon which will consist of the items below. It has taken me a
while before I could compile a list of items where I was happy with them
all.

ASUS P4T-E motherboard
INTEL P4 1.8 Northwood (at least)
256MB PC800 Rambus (at least)
ATI Radeon VE (dual head, driving two LCD's - no hum on guitar pickups! and
sit near monitors)
Maxtor 40Gig HD for system and resource files (like samples...)
Maxtor 40+Gig HD for Audio
Good OEM CD-R (just for installs, listening to music etc...)
Plextor CD-R/RW or DVD-RAM/Combo writer (DVD-RAM is the 'standard' now I
think and DVD essential for backups...)
RME Hammerfall lite
Win2k (sticking with Logic 4.8x until VST multi-outs and new automation
responds to external controllers)

The system will be put in a 4u rack mount case and I will use the QuietPC
silentdrive, PSU, CPU cooler and their silent foam stuff to make it suitable
for mountig in a rack under my vids and over my desk (sorta...) right under
my nose.

If I didnt already have the RME Hammerfall Lite, I would buy the RME
Hammerfall DSP and the multiface. I also already own the ATI Radeon...

I would recommend using Windows 98 second edition (if you ccan get your
hands on it...) or Win2k with service pack 2 and whatever tweaks you can
find around the net.

From what I've read these components will give me a lot of bang for the buck
and should be stable. I have read that Intel has released a new version of
the i850 chipset that the P4T-E is based on, that increases the memory
bandwidth amongst other things, but I know the P4T-E is stable and it should
drop in price a bit by the time I save enough to upgrade. Hopefully I should
pick up a 2+GHz processor then too! :)

As it stands I'm still happily using my ABIT BH6 with an overclocked celeron
II 600 (@900Mhz) with very few problems :) (looking around desperately for
some dead tree to touch....) upgrade is to allow me turn my part-time hobby
into a paying part-time hobby :)

There have been some good links posted by Sascha (I think...??) relating to
optimisation of windows, check the LUG archives....

YMMV!

regards
--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--

> Nice idea but somehow I think this is an illusion you are chasing. Nothing
> stands still  -- OS patches, hardware drivers, Logic updates, new system
> problems crop up.

As I said, I would learn that eventually.  I just don't want lots of downtime
initially.


> Building it yourself in the first place means you know what
> is in there and everything that was done to it from scratch.

Yes, I think you are right.


> reinstall anything there will be no mystery -- you've already done it.  All
> that knowledge is power -- without it you are impotent in the face of
> gremlins that bedevil every computer system from time to time.  If you
> don't want to face this reality using a computer as a DAW is a bad idea.

That sounds a teensy bit condescending, but point taken.


> If you don't want to get your hands under the hood, any clone
> dealer can put a box together in an afternoon -- just pick a configuration
> that others are reporting success with on the LUG and replicate it.

Another good point...  The general consensus seems to be to put it
together myself.  I guess it's time to start checking out prices...

    -smeet



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Further to Dennis and Murrays comments on the negative aspects of DAW
> builders I would also suggest building your own system. I will be building
> my own system soon which will consist of the items below.

Mark, thanks so much for your list!  If other people have similar specs,
I would love to see them...


> ASUS P4T-E motherboard
> INTEL P4 1.8 Northwood (at least)

OK, here is something I have wondered about.  Do these two lines completely
specify what you are getting, or are there variations on this
motherboard/CPU
combination that can introduce other performance variables?

Thanks, smeet

Smeet wrote:
>> Nice idea but somehow I think this is an illusion you are chasing. Nothing
>> stands still  -- OS patches, hardware drivers, Logic updates, new system
>> problems crop up.
>
>As I said, I would learn that eventually.  I just don't want lots of downtime
>initially.

LOL -- very understandable :-)

>> Building it yourself in the first place means you know what
>> is in there and everything that was done to it from scratch.
>
>Yes, I think you are right.

This is just where my own unpleasant experience of depending 
on others to fix my computer led me. I learnt the hard way.

>> reinstall anything there will be no mystery -- you've already done it.  All
>> that knowledge is power -- without it you are impotent in the face of
>> gremlins that bedevil every computer system from time to time.  If you
>> don't want to face this reality using a computer as a DAW is a bad idea.
>
>That sounds a teensy bit condescending, but point taken.

Hey -- if you work for a living with all the platforms you listed in your
post nobody is condescending to you about computers -- least of all me.
Perhaps that would have sounded better if I had written -- "If one does not
..."  --   but it sounds a bit too much like something Hugh Grant would say
to Kate Winslet in some 19th Century bodice ripper. 

>> If you don't want to get your hands under the hood, any clone
>> dealer can put a box together in an afternoon -- just pick a configuration
>> that others are reporting success with on the LUG and replicate it.
>
>Another good point...  The general consensus seems to be to put it
>together myself.  I guess it's time to start checking out prices...

The USA market for hardware looks like heaven from an Australian vantage
point -- very cheap and anything you conceivably want delivered to your
door overnight. Good luck with your new machine -- I will need to do
likewise soon enough.

Regards,
Murray

> > ASUS P4T-E motherboard
> > INTEL P4 1.8 Northwood (at least)
>
> OK, here is something I have wondered about.  Do these two lines
completely
> specify what you are getting, or are there variations on this
> motherboard/CPU
> combination that can introduce other performance variables?

Every other board I researched seemed to have issues with chipsets (bad
memory bandwidth (either through the chipset or through using 'legacy'
memory such as SDRAM ..., poor PCI bandwidth, or both or flaky
implementations of one thing or another. I'm not claiming that the P4T-E is
perfect but I have yet to see a problematic review. Actually the only issue
seems to be that your AGP card must be able to work at 1.5 (or is it 1.33??)
volts or else it will melt the motherboard!! The Asus P4T-E allows you to
use the latest Intel northwood (P4) processors to the max. Beofre this I was
goign to go with an AMD system but I had yet to find a motherboard that
would have suited

Actually if you are in the states you might check out http://www.pcnut.com
they do systems for gamers which have specs that would suit audio
workstations, check out the overclockers section. They sell pretested
overclocked systems that run without problems. Some people dont like
overclocked systems btu I've never experienced a problem that went away when
I stopped overclocking (in other words it wasnt caused by overclocking :) )
There are other sites for info such as www.anandtech.com and
www.tomshardware.com which do reviews of products.

Best of luck and Keep tracking!

regards
--
Mark Lennox
Technical Consultant
ENDUSER
Suite 40
Guinness Enterprise Centre
Taylors Lane
Dublin 8
Ireland
Tel: +353 1 4100 665
Fax: +353 1 4100 985
web: http://www.enduser.com
--