The Logic Off Topic list

I'm considering the switch to Mac But there machines
only have four PCI slots What do you do if you need more?

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>I'm considering the switch to Mac But there machines
>only have four PCI slots What do you do if you need more?

You swear a lot and hope to heaven or hell that they will be there in 
the next generation.

At 10:19 PM 5/07/02 +0900, you wrote:
>>I'm considering the switch to Mac But there machines
>>only have four PCI slots What do you do if you need more?

You wait till you inherit a large sum from a rich relative and buy a Magma
expansion chassis with up to 13 PCI slots. Seriously -- Apple aren't making
the sort of pro-oriented towers they used to make before the G3 with 2 PCI
bridges and six slots (9600 etc). 

This is part of the rationalisation that Stevo delivered when he returned
to the roost -- just a few models with wide appeal. When he's gone out on a
limb it has been with something even less practical for our sort of Apps --
the Cube. The fact that you cannot even order as an option a bigger case
and a mobo with more slots should tell you plenty about Apple and the pro
market.

Regards,
Murray

>At 10:19 PM 5/07/02 +0900, you wrote:
>>>I'm considering the switch to Mac But there machines
>>>only have four PCI slots What do you do if you need more?
>
>You wait till you inherit a large sum from a rich relative and buy a Magma
>expansion chassis with up to 13 PCI slots. Seriously -- Apple aren't making
>the sort of pro-oriented towers they used to make before the G3 with 2 PCI
>bridges and six slots (9600 etc).
>
>This is part of the rationalisation that Stevo delivered when he returned
>to the roost -- just a few models with wide appeal. When he's gone out on a
>limb it has been with something even less practical for our sort of Apps --
>the Cube. The fact that you cannot even order as an option a bigger case
>and a mobo with more slots should tell you plenty about Apple and the pro
>market.

This is all very true.  Lets hope that with apple's clear motions in 
the direction of recapturing the audio market they will start making 
some boxes with a more professional attitude in this area.

I think the new mac towers have 4 PCI slots. I have a two year old mac 
(G4/400) and it has four - including one for the graphics card - so really 
three. I have a second graphics board for a second monitor, one for SCSI 
adapter, and one for AMIII.  However, there are graphic boards which support 
TWO monitors on one board. And I can live with firewire external drives.

--- TazmnianDv@... wrote:
> I think the new mac towers have 4 PCI slots. I have
> a two year old mac 
> (G4/400) and it has four - including one for the
> graphics card - so really 
> three. I have a second graphics board for a second
> monitor, one for SCSI 
> adapter, and one for AMIII.  However, there are
> graphic boards which support 
> TWO monitors on one board. And I can live with
> firewire external drives. 
> Sorry, but four slots just don't cut it. Let's hope
that will change. Maybe then I will invest all that
money on a system Apple seems to think is worth three
times what I paid for my PC That has six!
                            regards,
                            itsplayed@stevespiece 

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>  >  Lets hope that with apple's clear motions in
>  >the direction of recapturing the audio market they will start making
>>some boxes with a more professional attitude in this area.
>
>
>And does the fact that they dominate the pro market mean anything?

In the context of this conversation?

No.



>I work on a Mac with 1 PCI slots (my personal rig has 10). I prefer 
>using an expansion chassis as there is more flexibilty in choosing 
>sizes.

Good for you.

I need about 6 PCI slots.  I don't need more and I do not want to pay 
a huge amount of money for an expansion chassis.   Mac used to make 5 
(or 6?) slot machines.  When they stopped a lot of pros complained. 
The only people who did not complain were Digi and Magma.


>I also don't want them to make a bigger chassis which won't fit into 
>a 19" rack, which is a requirement for pro use.

Well I though I know they must be out there somewhere, have never 
once seen a Mac in a 19" rack space in a pro musicians home or in a 
pro studio so I guess not too many pros are seeing that criterion as 
an absolute.   But at any rate there is absolutely not reason I can 
see that they could not make a machine that would have six slots 
*and* fit in a 19" rack space.


>Maybe they exsist (I haven't looked very hard) but I
>haven't seen any 6 slot PCs that are rackable (not that finding a 6 slot
>rackable PC is a criteria for me).

I am sure they do.  I am a Mac guy too for about 13 years but I have 
not confused the Macs merits with its Liabilities.  Talk about a lack 
of PCI slots being an advantage to a PC and you will be in real 
danger of arrest for committing murder by the willful induction of 
hysterical and uncontrollable laughter.

--- Colin Miller <snoopy@...> wrote:
> 
> > >This is part of the rationalisation that Stevo
> delivered when he returned
> > >to the roost -- just a few models with wide
> appeal. When he's gone out on
> > > a limb it has been with something even less
> practical for our sort of
> > > Apps -- the Cube. The fact that you cannot even
> order as an option a
> > > bigger case and a mobo with more slots should
> tell you plenty about Apple
> > > and the pro market.
> 
> >This is all very true.  Lets hope that with apple's
> clear motions in 
> >the direction of recapturing the audio market they
> will start making 
> >some boxes with a more professional attitude in
> this area.
> 
> 
> 
> And does the fact that they dominate the pro market
> mean anything? I work on a 
> Mac with 1 PCI slots (my personal rig has 10). I
> prefer using an expansion 
> chassis as there is more flexibilty in choosing
> sizes. I also don't want them 
> to make a bigger chassis which won't fit into a 19"
> rack, which is a 
> requirement for pro use. Maybe they exsist (I
> haven't looked very hard) but I 
> haven't seen any 6 slot PCs that are rackable (not
> that finding a 6 slot 
> rackable PC is a criteria for me).
> 
> Colin Miller
> 



 My 6 slotted PC is rackable and I hear you on the Pro
use but most Mac users better hope that Apple does'nt
follow the Amiga who Abandoned the private user by
making there machines way out of financial reach for
most users. What's next? A $10,000 recording Macine
that does not include the software?
                            


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Colin Miller wrote:

>And does the fact that they dominate the pro market mean anything? I work
on a 
>Mac with 1 PCI slots (my personal rig has 10). I prefer using an expansion 
>chassis as there is more flexibilty in choosing sizes. I also don't want them 
>to make a bigger chassis which won't fit into a 19" rack, which is a 
>requirement for pro use. Maybe they exsist (I haven't looked very hard) but I 
>haven't seen any 6 slot PCs that are rackable (not that finding a 6 slot 
>rackable PC is a criteria for me).

PC cases can be any shape or size you want. Just not any colour ;-)

Rackmountable PC cases are widely available -- whether you want to build
your own system or you are a PC constructor/VAR. They aren't often seen in
the highstreet clone shop but you can get them easily. They are often well
built and reasonably expensive compared to the cheap and ubiquitous desktop
case or midi-tower. 

Rackmount x86 hardware is supplied by many companies for server
applications and some servers offer heaps of expansion slots too. What
proportion of machines on the net would be PCs in rackmount cases? Pretty
substantial I would guess -- heaps of PCs running Linux and Apache for a
start. 

Macs are thin on the ground in professional IT. If you tried to explain to
Pro IT people that expansion chassis were a good thing - better than a
single case -- they would look at you funny. 

Regards,
M

This may amuse ...

http://www.nativeunderground.com/general_strangeness.htm

I made this suggestion several years ago, but I wonder if there is some way 
to hotrod an older mac to use it as a poorman's expansion chasis. I have an 
older mac with 3 PCI slots collecting dust. Does anyone have any ideas? If 
so, this would allow for very cheap solutions. I know you can hook the two 
machines up through ethernet - but it may be possible to hook them through 
SCSI too - so the master could access the harddrive of the slave computer.

>I need about 6 PCI slots.  I don't need more and I do not want to pay 
>a huge amount of money for an expansion chassis.   Mac used to make 5 
>(or 6?) slot machines.  When they stopped a lot of pros complained. 
>The only people who did not complain were Digi and Magma.
>

> >This is part of the rationalisation that Stevo delivered when he returned
> >to the roost -- just a few models with wide appeal. When he's gone out on
> > a limb it has been with something even less practical for our sort of
> > Apps -- the Cube. The fact that you cannot even order as an option a
> > bigger case and a mobo with more slots should tell you plenty about Apple
> > and the pro market.

>This is all very true.  Lets hope that with apple's clear motions in 
>the direction of recapturing the audio market they will start making 
>some boxes with a more professional attitude in this area.



And does the fact that they dominate the pro market mean anything? I work on a 
Mac with 1 PCI slots (my personal rig has 10). I prefer using an expansion 
chassis as there is more flexibilty in choosing sizes. I also don't want them 
to make a bigger chassis which won't fit into a 19" rack, which is a 
requirement for pro use. Maybe they exsist (I haven't looked very hard) but I 
haven't seen any 6 slot PCs that are rackable (not that finding a 6 slot 
rackable PC is a criteria for me).

Colin Miller

>You MUST be kidding right?

No.


>  How many pro studios do you go to?

I haven't counted but off the top of my head I can think about 25~30 
high priced places that I have been to pretty regularly over the past 
few years.

>  I haven't seen
>any in a $2000+/day room that aren't racked. I am not sure where you live but
>in NY,LA, and Nashville, it is almost standard. It would be difficult as well
>to build on that small with 6 slots.

I live in Tokyo.  People who need them put the expansion chassis in a 
rack but the computers just stand there looking dumb.


>  Have you looked at the motherboard and
>seen how cramped it is? and have you ever seen a 95/600? It's HUGE. Back then
>DAWs were popular, but by no means the standard medium at studios, the Sony
>3348 was.

Six would be about right for me.  I currently have a four slot Mac 
and a six slot PC the PC is not all that much larger than the Mac. 
It doesn't look as nice but I have them both hidden in closet of a 
separate room so I don't have to listen to the fans so the Mac's 
nicer looks are totally irrelevant.

>  > Well I though I know they must be out there somewhere, have never
>>  once seen a Mac in a 19" rack space in a pro musicians home or in a
>>  pro studio so I guess not too many pros are seeing that criterion as
>>  an absolute.   But at any rate there is absolutely not reason I can
>>  see that they could not make a machine that would have six slots
>>  *and* fit in a 19" rack space.
>
>You MUST be kidding right? How many pro studios do you go to? I haven't seen
>any in a $2000+/day room that aren't racked. I am not sure where you live but
>in NY,LA, and Nashville, it is almost standard. It would be difficult as well

At first I was thinking it might have been ignorance on the part of 
my friends here in Tokyo keeping them from putting their Macs in 
racks but the more I think about the way my Mac opens up the more I 
wonder if the people who put them in racks are not the ones making 
the mistake.  When I put something in a rack I usually do it to 
maximize accessibility and for efficient use of space.  The current 
server style Macs are well suited to racks but the tower type?  Naw. 
Sure you can put one in there but what about when you want to open it 
up?  You have to leave what? 10? rack spaces open above it or else 
you won't be able to open the door.  So that means you are probably 
going have it taking up about 14 rack spaces all together including 
the empty spaces?  I don't really see the advantage .

> Well I though I know they must be out there somewhere, have never
> once seen a Mac in a 19" rack space in a pro musicians home or in a
> pro studio so I guess not too many pros are seeing that criterion as
> an absolute.   But at any rate there is absolutely not reason I can
> see that they could not make a machine that would have six slots
> *and* fit in a 19" rack space.

You MUST be kidding right? How many pro studios do you go to? I haven't seen 
any in a $2000+/day room that aren't racked. I am not sure where you live but 
in NY,LA, and Nashville, it is almost standard. It would be difficult as well 
to build on that small with 6 slots. Have you looked at the motherboard and 
seen how cramped it is? and have you ever seen a 95/600? It's HUGE. Back then 
DAWs were popular, but by no means the standard medium at studios, the Sony 
3348 was. I appreciate your response, but I humbly dissagree with you.

Colin Miller

>  My 6 slotted PC is rackable and I hear you on the Pro
> use but most Mac users better hope that Apple does'nt
> follow the Amiga who Abandoned the private user by
> making there machines way out of financial reach for
> most users. What's next? A $10,000 recording Macine
> that does not include the software?

I agree with you. It's also good to hear that there is indeed a 6 slot 
rackable PC!

Colin Miller

>
> Rackmountable PC cases are widely available -- whether you want to build
> your own system or you are a PC constructor/VAR. They aren't often seen in
> the highstreet clone shop but you can get them easily. They are often well
> built and reasonably expensive compared to the cheap and ubiquitous desktop
> case or midi-tower.

I wasn't saying theere weeren't any, in fact I have seen millions. I meant its 
hard to come across a 6 slot PCI one because fo space limitation in a 19" 
rack.


> Macs are thin on the ground in professional IT. If you tried to explain to
> Pro IT people that expansion chassis were a good thing - better than a
> single case -- they would look at you funny.

I don't think Macs have ANY ground in pro IT, but in the Pro Audio industry 
they certianly do! :-)

Colin Miller

PS - In my original post it looks like I may have typed '1 PCI slot' when I 
meant to type 16 PCI slots'. Sorry about that!

on 7/8/02 12:57 AM, Dennis Gunn wrote:

> At first I was thinking it might have been ignorance on the part of
> my friends here in Tokyo keeping them from putting their Macs in
> racks but the more I think about the way my Mac opens up the more I
> wonder if the people who put them in racks are not the ones making
> the mistake.  When I put something in a rack I usually do it to
> maximize accessibility and for efficient use of space.  The current
> server style Macs are well suited to racks but the tower type?  Naw.
> Sure you can put one in there but what about when you want to open it
> up?  You have to leave what? 10? rack spaces open above it or else
> you won't be able to open the door.  So that means you are probably
> going have it taking up about 14 rack spaces all together including
> the empty spaces?  I don't really see the advantage .

Ahhh, well, mine is loaded into a Marathon G series Rack enclosure.
Basically you lose the Mac Shell, and load the guts into the frame.  I have
it on sliding rack rails so that access is a snap.  All in 4U, 18" deep.
It's really the way to go if you move your system around much at all.

 
Garth Hemphill
Principal, GLH Design, Inc.
Resident Sound Designer, ACT San Francisco
USA-829 Sound Designer #0011

> At first I was thinking it might have been ignorance on the part of
> my friends here in Tokyo keeping them from putting their Macs in
> racks but the more I think about the way my Mac opens up the more I
> wonder if the people who put them in racks are not the ones making
> the mistake.  When I put something in a rack I usually do it to
> maximize accessibility and for efficient use of space.  The current
> server style Macs are well suited to racks but the tower type?  Naw.
> Sure you can put one in there but what about when you want to open it
> up?  You have to leave what? 10? rack spaces open above it or else
> you won't be able to open the door.  So that means you are probably
> going have it taking up about 14 rack spaces all together including
> the empty spaces?  I don't really see the advantage .

Well, this is obviously a cultural difference because it's not at all the same 
here in the US. So your arguments apple very well voer there, just not over 
here. The reason for the racks is because of the use. The computer and 
hardware gets moved around a lot and needs a lot of protection. DAWs are 
being moved from stufdio to studio or moved from rtoom to room thus the 
entire setup needs to be in a fligh case that is shockmounted. To not put the 
computer in a rack case would be suicidal. Maybe in Japan cartage companies 
are extra caring about your equipment, but in the US you can't trust that. 
And to open them, you just simply pull the rack out, which rarely ever needs 
to be done. And even then, it's often a techs job (what would you be doing 
that requires opening the case on a regular basis anyways?). 

My entire recording system fits in one big case. I simply disconnect it, put 
the covers on, and wheel it to the studio.

Colin Miller

--- In logic-ot@y..., Dennis Gunn <dennisg@a...> wrote:

> Well I though I know they must be out there somewhere, have never 
> once seen a Mac in a 19" rack space in a pro musicians home or in a 
> pro studio so I guess not too many pros are seeing that criterion 
> as an absolute. 

I actually used to have a black 19" rack-mounting Atari STE.
The main motherboard was exactly 17" wide, so I had to shave quite a 
bit off the two sides to fit it into a 2U box <!!!> and I took off 
the dongle slot, rotated it through 90 degrees and soldered it back 
on so it pointed upwards (you could do that). 

Included a more serious PSU, SCSI hard drive, HD interface, Export, 
duplicated all the MIDI and audio on the front and rear. 

Cut down the original plastic case to make a separate keyboard case.

I thought it looked cool, especially with the carefully-filed 
diagonal-ly hole for the funny-shaped ST floppy drive! 

=Erk=