The Logic Off Topic list

> >Fine statement. I\ufffdm a bit sorry for the DJ generation.

I am truly sorry for you.  I feel incredibly lucky and priveledged to have
spent my youth during the first 10 years of clubland, as we know it.

> Lets say a couple gets married now, and they play some Sasha remixs. Later
> when they're having their 25th anniversary are they going to have the band
> play "their song" ...? I'm really trying to understand this.

If there's a dj at the marriage, there will be a dj at the anniversary, not
a band, and amongst a lot of new records being played, some old ones too
including the Sasha records.

> My theory is this. If you listen to a great song, often there is a great
> beat. But in this ever more superficial world, now they dispense with the
> melody, the lyrics,  etc and just stick with a beat and simple riff. If
you
> think about it, this is part of a long trend. A symphony - lets say
Brahms -
> each part is about 10 minutes long - and all built upon one theme and a
> counter theme and variations. It takes patience to listen and understand
the
> musical idea. Then  big band jazz made this quicker and more accessible.
Then
> rock and roll was a further simplification. But the beatles used to use
> augmented and diminished chords occassionally. Then heavy metal got
simpler-
> "power chords = 1 +5".  And there was stagnation for a while. Grunge came
> along and at least has some fresh dark harmony, but it was too dark
overall.
>

Interesting but does not apply to Trance.   You are trying to listen to
trance as a normal song.  Big mistake.  Trance is a music that works in a
hypnotic way,  requiring no melody or vocals.  It directly affects your
emotions with out you having to think about it.   It is more akin to the
ancient tribal drum rhythms and shamanic ritual dancing of native cultures,
than modern, western culture 'songs'.  You have the deepest misunderstanding
of what it is about.


> So the stage is set for mindless techno/dance music. Its upbeat. Its
social
> and fun. The musical ideas are usually a bar or two. In fact, there are
often
> quarter note repeating elements - which have a hypnotic affect. But it
seems
> to be the junk food of music - candy bars - plenty of sugar and artificial
> flavors - but no vitamins.

It is only mindless to those who have never been able/willing to put
themselves in the situation required to understand it.  I suspect you never
will.    Your loss mate.

> But thats fine. I like listening to it - to a certain extent. Actually its
a
> different experience. A lot of my favorite music (and I have been busy
> putting it all onto my IPOD!)  has some sort of emotional ebb and flow -
> while the dance music's main claim is very little of that.

Good trance music has enormous emotive power, if you know how to unlock it.
There will be two camps of people reading this. Those, that like you do not
understand trance, will be agreeing wholeheartedly with what you have said.
And the other camp, which has been able to grasp the concept, will probably
be thinking: 'If only he knew'.

Regards Hector.

>Those, that like you do not
>understand trance, will be agreeing wholeheartedly with what you have said.
>And the other camp, which has been able to grasp the concept, will probably
>be thinking: 'If only he knew'.

Can you explain the deper understand for us heathen then? It sounds good - I 
hear beats, and synth parts coming in,  and dropping out. There is stuff 
going on. Its hypnotic. But what is so special about all that? A good "song" 
has those same qualities - with less hypnosis. My view is that its nice, but 
not that rapture you're making it out to be. Its like a Led Zeppelin fan 
saying ... its so wonderous how Jimmy Page plays a Les Paul on some songs, 
and a Telecaster on others - you can tell the difference in the sound, but 
overall the average listener doesn't know or care. Certainly the differences 
don't merit a new name of music  - "Humbucking Zep" versus "Single Coil Zep".

Obviously you (Hector) are an expert in this music. I'm just wondering if the 
distinctions are similarly subtle.

The only dance song that can think of that has a real emotion moment is BT's 
Hip Hop Phenomenon....where it builds and then has a break.

> >Those, that like you do not
> >understand trance, will be agreeing wholeheartedly with what you have
said.
> >And the other camp, which has been able to grasp the concept, will
probably
> >be thinking: 'If only he knew'.
>
> Can you explain the deper understand for us heathen then? It sounds good -
I
> hear beats, and synth parts coming in,  and dropping out. There is stuff
> going on. Its hypnotic. But what is so special about all that?

Looking at my post again, that "grasp the concept" bit seems a bit
rude/patronising and was not what I really meant to say. I'm sorry if you
found that at all offensive.  It should have been "And the other (probably
very small) camp, which has been fortunate enough to hear the music in the
right circumstances (large soundsystem, crowd, dancing, MDMA in the
bloodstream etc...) will probably be thinking 'If only he knew'"
Almost anyone in those circumstances should be able to understand the true
_purpose_ of  Trance music.  It is a tool to reach a euphoric/spiritual
state of mind on the dance floor, nothing else.

The commercial trance you have probably been listening to is often just a
tool that  record companies/artists  use to cash in on the scene.

Listening to good trance at home on a pc is not a misuse, but maybe an
impotent use of it.  The other required factors (listed above) are not
there, so the desired effect is not reached.   The exception being for those
people who have danced to the music at a club and then get the feeling
return to them on listening again at home.   There is a movie called Human
Traffic which conveys the whole experience and lifestyle very well,  I
highly recommend watching it.  The trance music in it is well chosen.

>A good "song"
> has those same qualities - with less hypnosis. My view is that its nice,
but
> not that rapture you're making it out to be.

Trust me,  a good song as you put it,   has none of required qualities that
trance has.   They are like chalk and cheese.    I play conventional 'good
songs' at home, saving the trance for parties and clubs.   Most days I will
listen to classical, dinner jazz, Brazilian vintage samba/MPB, chillout and
even a little 'pop'.  Very little rock oriented music thought,  not since my
teenage years and I'm 28 now.  Starting clubbing in 1991 finished all that.

>Its like a Led Zeppelin fan
> saying ... its so wonderous how Jimmy Page plays a Les Paul on some songs,
> and a Telecaster on others - you can tell the difference in the sound, but
> overall the average listener doesn't know or care. Certainly the
differences
> don't merit a new name of music  - "Humbucking Zep" versus "Single Coil
Zep".
> Obviously you (Hector) are an expert in this music. I'm just wondering if
the
> distinctions are similarly subtle.

There are all the same subtleties and nuances in good trance that can
inspire in a very similar way.   I can thing of no other music that makes
such use clever use of carefully crafted timbres.  A great example would be
the sound emitted by the Roland TB-303 bassline. I have used many clones
both in hard and software forms and none have the class of the real thing.
But, as in the example you give, it is not that important to the listener.
The quality of the overall composition being the real issue.

> The only dance song that can think of that has a real emotion moment is
BT's
> Hip Hop Phenomenon....where it builds and then has a break.

A strange choice for me.  Whilst I greatly admire BT's skill in the
construction of that tune and similar ones on the Movement In Still Life
album I do not believe it would cut the mustard on a trance dancefloor.  I
do not find it emotionally rousing, rather just impressive.   It is a
'Breaks' tune anyway, not trance.   Some of the more '4 to the floor' tracks
on the album would fare better and are more emotive to me.   If you have not
done so already you should really give his 'ESCM' album a listen as I feel
that is much more of a landmark piece of work.   It has pictures of
monoliths on the cover and I think he is fully justified in putting them
there. There is also a real stunner called 'Divinity' on his first album
'Ima'.   Shows his musical tallent and genius to the full.  These songs are
still a little soft sounding for todays trance lovers.   I wish so much he
would produce some harder stuff.

Trance needs to be full of sonic energy and rising spiralling synth riffs
that lifts a crowd and sends them hurtling throught fractal galaxies in
their minds.  It's not called 'trance' for nothing. Without wanting to sound
like a hippie,   it is truly mind expanding and the greatest form of
hedonism/escapism that has ever existed.  It can all be achieved over a
weekend with little effort involved.   Such is the intensity of it, new
inexperienced clubbers will often often get themselves into trouble by doing
it every weekend.   After a few months their bodies and minds begin to let
them know  that they should slow down.   Wiser and more experienced clubbers
will go partying maybe just once a month.  The golden rule has always been
'Less is more'.   I have been doing it for ten years and have never felt
better.

Sometimes my enthusiasm gets misinterpereted as a 'holyer than thou'
attitude.  I hope you have not thought that.  I have tried to convey what I
know but it is not an easy subject to explain.   I certainly know that if
someone had tried to explain it all to me before I started,  I doubt they
would have given me an accurate picture.

regards Hector.

Hector
I appreciate your explanations and I do like the music (which I can't always 
say about rap or country).

>Listening to good trance at home on a pc is not a misuse, but maybe an
>impotent use of it.  The other required factors (listed above) are not
>there, so the desired effect is not reached. 
...
>Trance needs to be full of sonic energy and rising spiralling synth riffs
>that lifts a crowd and sends them hurtling throught fractal galaxies in
>their minds.  It's not called 'trance' for nothing. Without wanting to
>sound like a hippie,  

Few can remember the heady days of the real hippies in th San Francisco scene 
in 1969 ... Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Iron Butterfly, Moby Grape, the 
Grateful Dead, Country Joe & Fish,  ... playing loud music with colored 
water/oil projected onto a screen ...people were on LSD probably - of course 
there is no way to capture that feeling on a computer or record, ... Nor is 
there a way to capture the feel of Woodstock. etc Or there was th spiralling 
guitar duel in Freebird, the hypnotic beat of Led Zps opener - Immigrant Song 
(I heard it at th LA forum with 18,000 and it was mesmerizing). I was also 
moved by Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde - it can really sweep you up.


> > BT'sHip Hop Phenomenon....where it builds and then has a break.
> A strange choice for me. 

Its not my favorite BT by far, but the things of his i like are songs. I was 
using that as an example of a non-song piece that had ... as Rachmaninoff 
said "its moment".

> Hector
> I appreciate your explanations and I do like the music (which I can't
always
> say about rap or country).



> Few can remember the heady days of the real hippies in th San Francisco
scene
> in 1969 ... Jefferson Airplane, Janis Joplin, Iron Butterfly, Moby Grape,
the
> Grateful Dead, Country Joe & Fish,  ... playing loud music with colored
> water/oil projected onto a screen ...people were on LSD probably - of
course
> there is no way to capture that feeling on a computer or record, ... Nor
is
> there a way to capture the feel of Woodstock. etc Or there was th
spiralling
> guitar duel in Freebird, the hypnotic beat of Led Zps opener - Immigrant
Song
> (I heard it at th LA forum with 18,000 and it was mesmerizing). I was also
> moved by Wagner's Tristan Und Isolde - it can really sweep you up.

That sort of festival is still going on with the UK's Glastonbury festival.
It caters for most musical tastes and you'll find plenty of hippies, some
naked.   Roger Waters from the Floyd  played at this years and that was only
last weekend.  As for capturing the LSD experience on a recording you need
to listen to two albums:

Ozric Tentacles - Erpland
The Infinity Project - Mystical Experiences

I can tell you they are _very_ close to the real thing.    The Ozrics album
is the most sublime, beautiful  and psychedelic music I have ever heard.
For both of these albums you really want to listen to them on a strong dose
of acid, outdoors in a beautiful place, on a fine day.

If you have trouble getting hold of them or any others that I recommend let
me know and I will help you out.   I think you can order the Ozrics album at
www.ozrics.com

regards Hector.