The Logic Off Topic list

>Even though I don't like most trance-ish music, I still can't fully 
>agree with you here.  True, melody and harmonic progression have been 
>sacrificed for soundscaping and rhythm, but somehow that _too_ is 
>composing, I think -- just with other means and a different focus 
>than we're used to.  Abstract painting is just as valid as landscape 
>painting -- it's just focusing on something different.

I say that that is ARRANGING rather than COMPOSING. My definition of a song, 
is a musical expression, when played on a simple guitar or piano is 
recognizable as being the same musical idea. 

There probaby are young Bachs out there - they are writing for film or 
teaching music and just composing for themselves.

Thoughts from the mind of TazmnianDv@..., 08-07-2002:

>  >Even though I don't like most trance-ish music, I still can't fully
>>agree with you here.  True, melody and harmonic progression have been
>>sacrificed for soundscaping and rhythm, but somehow that _too_ is
>>composing, I think -- just with other means and a different focus
>>than we're used to.  Abstract painting is just as valid as landscape
>>painting -- it's just focusing on something different.
>
>I say that that is ARRANGING rather than COMPOSING. My definition of a song,
>is a musical expression, when played on a simple guitar or piano is
>recognizable as being the same musical idea.

I tend to agree with you here, up to a point.  At the same time 
however, I realize all to well that simply because a certain way of 
dealing with sounds has always been labelled "composing" and another 
way of dealing with sounds has been labelled "arranging", these 
labels don't necessarily have eternal and unchangeable definitions.

Wiliiam Turner (the English painter) used to paint "classical" 
paintings, and was well respected by all critics because he was 
extremely talented.  Then one day he changed his style, and from then 
on was despised by all, since "what he now does is not painting -- 
it's just blobs of colour".  Only 50-100 years later did it become 
apparent that he'd been at least half a century ahead of his time, 
making the first (almost) abstract paintings.

When John Cage grabbed a pair of dice to "compose" his music, that 
surely wasn't composing by anyone's definition.  And granted, I 
wouldn't want to play those records :-).  Still, what he did was 
extremely important and has liberated many composers from the rigid 
19th century ideas on what "composing" means.

Years ago I saw a guy perform as the support act for Portishead. 
Just one man, two turntables and a bunch of records.  And by god, 
what he managed to do with that in maybe 10-15 minutes was far more 
impressive than the entire Portishead concert.  At the bloody edge of 
my seat and holding my breath for the full performance.  Afterwards 
the audience almost tore down the hall with enthusiasm.

That got me thinking.  What that guy did was art, pure and simple -- 
with means that up till then I would have condemned as being "not 
serious" or "no ral instruments" or whatever.  At a moment like that, 
it doesn't matter if you call it composing or arranging or something 
else.  It was spectacular, impressive, emotional (!) and full of 
craftsmanship.  In a word: it was art and it was somehow music, and 
that's all that matters.  Even though he probably couldn't 
distinguish a C maj from a C min...

Last remark: about being able to play a composition on guitar and 
have the "idea" survive.  Take 90% of the "classical" compositions of 
the last 50 years...  Immediate breakdown of your definition :-). 
Even a simple piece for prepared piano can't be played on any other 
instrument and still have its idea survive, I think.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

>When John Cage grabbed a pair of dice to "compose" his music, that 
>surely wasn't composing by anyone's definition.  And granted, I 
>wouldn't want to play those records :-).  Still, what he did was 
>extremely important and has liberated many composers from the rigid 
>19th century ideas on what "composing" means.


Cage had a piece that was complete silence for 4 minutes. Recently an English 
guy made a CD and made one track of silence for a 1 minute (as something of a 
joke and as separation from the main songs and the bonus material). The 
family of Cage are suing him for royalties for this 'composition' claiming it 
is a 'quotation' of Cage's piece. I would claim that this is 'traditional 
folk music' ... indeed, silence existed before mankind. 


>Last remark: about being able to play a composition on guitar and 
>have the "idea" survive.  Take 90% of the "classical" compositions of 
>the last 50 years...  Immediate breakdown of your definition :-). 
>Even a simple piece for prepared piano can't be played on any other 
>instrument and still have its idea survive, I think.


The key term is MUSICAL IDEA. I have two CD's of Prokoviev's Romeo and 
Juliette - one the full symphonic version and one on piano only. I can fully 
recognize both as the same musical idea - albeit the piano reduction is 
simpler. On the other hand, Schoenberg, being a big fan of Brahams, took one 
of Braham's piano pieces, and made it into Brahms "fifth" symphony. In the 
same way, Bono's recent doing of T.Rex's "Children of the Revolution" is 
instantly recognizable.

>Cage had a piece that was complete silence for 4 minutes. Recently an English
>guy made a CD and made one track of silence for a 1 minute (as something of a
>joke and as separation from the main songs and the bonus material). The
>family of Cage are suing him for royalties for this 'composition' claiming it
>is a 'quotation' of Cage's piece. I would claim that this is 'traditional
>folk music' ... indeed, silence existed before mankind.

shit - I did the same 10 ys ago! I separated a long meditation track from
the others by inserting a track
2. silence       0:45

hope I remain a free man! But I´m confident, because my silent track is in
another key than cage´s!


anonymous

;-)

--- In logic-ot@y..., TazmnianDv@a... wrote:
> Cage had a piece that was complete silence for 4 minutes. Recently
an English 
> guy made a CD and made one track of silence for a 1 minute (as
something of a 
> joke and as separation from the main songs and the bonus material). The 
> family of Cage are suing him for royalties for this 'composition'
claiming it 
> is a 'quotation' of Cage's piece. I would claim that this is
'traditional 
> folk music' ... indeed, silence existed before mankind. 

LMAO. This is a joke, right? I can see the lawyers in court already:
'Your honor, may we have a listen at exhibit A(which is a piece of
silence) and exhibit B( which is also a piece of silence). Members of
the jury, do you hear the similarities?'
'Your honor, we want to file for a mistrial, since one of the jury
members is deaf'.

Yoonchi.

>Cage had a piece that was complete silence for 4 minutes.

If you finish that one in 4 minutes you're rushing!  It says 433 
right in the title!


>Recently an English
>guy made a CD and made one track of silence for a 1 minute (as something of a
>joke and as separation from the main songs and the bonus material).

This is the funniest thing I have heard in a while.

>The
>family of Cage are suing him for royalties for this 'composition' claiming it
>is a 'quotation' of Cage's piece. I would claim that this is 'traditional
>folk music' ... indeed, silence existed before mankind.

Indeed I would have to say there is less of is since our advent. 
Perhaps we should start putting it in cans and selling it in 
supermarkets.

Thoughts from the mind of TazmnianDv@..., 09-07-2002:

>Cage had a piece that was complete silence for 4 minutes. Recently an English
>guy made a CD and made one track of silence for a 1 minute (as something of a
>joke and as separation from the main songs and the bonus material). The
>family of Cage are suing him for royalties for this 'composition' claiming it
>is a 'quotation' of Cage's piece.

Now this is extremely silly...  I once witnessed a performance of 
a.o. this Cage piece btw -- which, to be exact, is 4'33 of silence. 
Very interesting, as an audience is apparently just _not_ capable of 
shutting up for 4 and a half minutes if there's no music playing...

>  >Last remark: about being able to play a composition on guitar and
>>have the "idea" survive.  Take 90% of the "classical" compositions of
>>the last 50 years...  Immediate breakdown of your definition :-).
>>Even a simple piece for prepared piano can't be played on any other
>  >instrument and still have its idea survive, I think.
>
>The key term is MUSICAL IDEA.

Yes, I understand what you mean.  My counterclaim is just that some 
MUSICAL IDEAs :) simply don't survive when transferred to another 
context (instrument or whatever).

>I have two CD's of Prokoviev's Romeo and Juliette - one the full 
>symphonic version and one on piano only. I can fully recognize both 
>as the same musical idea - albeit the piano reduction is simpler.

Sure, as long as music consists of melodic and harmonic progressions, 
you can easily transfer it to guitar or piano.  But what aout e.g. 
Stockhausen's early electronic compositions ("tune a sine-oscillator 
to 400 Hz and keep it there for 5 seconds, now tune it to 410 Hz 
while at the same time introducing a square wave at 687 Hz...")?  Or 
how about there entire Musique Concrete movement -- which basically 
consisted of a collage of tape material, cut up, re-arranged and 
glued together?

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html

No its not a joke although it sounds like one. I heard about it on the radio 
on NPR (National Public Radio in the US - they got on the phone and called 
the British composer and interviewed him. They were asking if it had been 5 
minutes (longer than the Cage "piece") then it could not be quotation of the 
original piece unless there were a repeated section of silence. Its mind 
boggling. The English guy brought some of this one by listing the composer as 
himself and "Cage". Its sad that the Cage family is so money grubbing that 
they would stoop to this. I would just cut a new CD, and replace the silence, 
with some ambient empty room noise... a couple of footsteps and creaking 
chair would establish it as a completely original work of silence.

>LMAO. This is a joke, right? I can see the lawyers in court already:
>'Your honor, may we have a listen at exhibit A(which is a piece of
>silence) and exhibit B( which is also a piece of silence). Members of
>the jury, do you hear the similarities?'
>'Your honor, we want to file for a mistrial, since one of the jury
>members is deaf'.

>Sure, as long as music consists of melodic and harmonic progressions, 
>you can easily transfer it to guitar or piano.  But what aout e.g. 
>Stockhausen's early electronic compositions ("tune a sine-oscillator 
>to 400 Hz and keep it there for 5 seconds, now tune it to 410 Hz 
>while at the same time introducing a square wave at 687 Hz...")?  Or 
>how about there entire Musique Concrete movement -- which basically 
>consisted of a collage of tape material, cut up, re-arranged and 
>glued together?

But this too is really more noise-sculting than music. What about recordings 
of rain storms? Bird songs. Barking dogs. Or military sound affects? Ambient 
recordings in a train station. Babies crying. Narrations. Lectures on how to 
get rich in real estate or gain more self-confidence. Running water. Vacumms, 
drills, saws, and kitchen blenders. Actually I would buy a CD which took all 
of these elements and arranged them in Logic into some grand creative 
composition. But even then I don't think they are music - just interesting 
sounds. Are all sounds music?

> But this too is really more noise-sculting than music. What about
recordings
> of rain storms? Bird songs. Barking dogs. Or military sound affects?
Ambient
> recordings in a train station. Babies crying. Narrations. Lectures on how
to
> get rich in real estate or gain more self-confidence. Running water.
Vacumms,
> drills, saws, and kitchen blenders. Actually I would buy a CD which took
all
> of these elements and arranged them in Logic into some grand creative
> composition. But even then I don't think they are music - just interesting
> sounds. Are all sounds music?

That's what Cage said.  I would tend to agree, inasmuch as music is whatever
the listener deems to be music.  When walking with my wife, I often hear
music in the chirping birds, screeching brakes, clanging pots, and other
sounds around me, even though my wife just hears the sounds.

   -smeet

>But even then I don't think they are music - just interesting
>sounds. Are all sounds music?

afaik - this was the point that Cage was trying to make: he 
considered that all sound was music - including whatever random 
ambient sound happened along during a 4 minute 33 second event where 
a piano player wasn't playing anything at all. He was also very 
interested to remove the idea of "intent" from music ( i.e. the 
composer's).  Neat idea. A great way to liberate the self from 
convention.

otoh - it has nothing to do with music :-)

>
>That's what Cage said.  I would tend to agree, inasmuch as music is whatever
>the listener deems to be music.  When walking with my wife, I often hear
>music in the chirping birds, screeching brakes, clanging pots, and other
>sounds around me, even though my wife just hears the sounds.

Some smart guy (I forget who) said that the most important part of a 
piece of art is the frame.  I think Cage would have agreed to that as 
well.

>  Actually I would buy a CD which took all
>of these elements and arranged them in Logic into some grand creative
>composition. But even then I don't think they are music - just interesting
>sounds. Are all sounds music?

When they are placed within a context that someone perceives them
to relate to each other, yes. That is essentially one of Cage's philosophical
underpinnings.

That is to say, the primary narratives for musical expression are
based on organization of melodic, harmonic and rhythmic elements. 'Composed'
sound that appears to have little relation to the  primary narrative 
devices mentioned
above  can still draw on formal relations at various levels to convey 
a sense of
shape or structure. You may not be able to whistle the tune but it is 
still composed
and a narrative may be formed, then arguably, it is still music.

S.

--

Thoughts from the mind of TazmnianDv@..., 10-07-2002:

>Are all sounds music?

Ultimately it's the listener who determines what's music to him/her 
and what not.

-- 
Hendrik Jan Veenstra  <h@...>
Omega Art: http://www.ision.nl/users/h/index.html