The Logic Off Topic list

on 7/25/02 9:33 AM, Murray McDowall wrote:

> You said that you think that Mac's being behind in speed will change soon.
> This would involve a doubling or tripling of speed and soon because the
> competition -- the thing that Macs are "behind" in your own words -- is
> rapidly progressing. This seemed unlikely to me. Macs will undoubtedly get
> faster but it seems unlikely that they will catch up unless they move to
> another processor.  (I argued in my post that the historical trend is one
> of X86 catching and overtaking RISC due to vastly greater R&D budgets.)
> 
> Apple has already moved to another platfrom a decade ago when it moved the
> Mac to the PowerPC from the dying 680x0 platform. Their execution on this
> move was flawless BTW -- the port to the new processor was miraculously
> well managed. Apple could easily get cheap fast processing by going with
> the Nvidia NForce2/Hammer solution that is the stuff of rumours at present.
> That seems a more likely source of fast (competitive) future Macs than
> PowerPC G series.

Rumours are many times based in truth.  Apple isn't stupid.  I think if they
feel they aren't going anywhere with the G series processors, why wouldn't
they jump ship to a Hammer or x86 platform.  It really wouldn't be all that
difficult, especially with OS X.  They aren't going to sit around and get
left in the dust.

I tend to agree with Colin though.  All this testosterone, wasted over
arguing about whose processor is bigger or faster, could be put to better
use.

Garth

Garth Hemphill <ghemphill@...>   wrote:
>Rumours are many times based in truth.  Apple isn't stupid.  I think if they
>feel they aren't going anywhere with the G series processors, why wouldn't
>they jump ship to a Hammer or x86 platform.  It really wouldn't be all that
>difficult, especially with OS X.  They aren't going to sit around and get
>left in the dust.

Exactly -- performance/up to date features -- they are everything. If
performanc didn't matter Mac users would  still be running their Mac Plus
or LCs.

>I tend to agree with Colin though.  All this testosterone, wasted over
>arguing about whose processor is bigger or faster, could be put to better
>use.

Well -- where do I start:

1. My last post made it clear that Colin was in fact concerned with present
and future performance of Macs -- just not specially realistic about it.
Apple's takeover and decision to make Logic Mac-only forces every PC owner
to consider their future and the price/performance of Macs versus PCs is
germane to any decision to switch platforms should they wish to stay with
Logic.

2.This has nothing to do with testosterone -- it is about facts as they
stand and the probable future developments. These are what you have to get
straight before you invest any more dough in all this technology n'shi*t. 

3. Whaddaya mean? The world is overpopulated as it is.

Regards,
Murray

Also, there is a rumor that Apple has been talking to AMD about working 
together.

>Apple's takeover and decision to make Logic Mac-only forces every PC owner
>to consider their future and the price/performance of Macs versus PCs is
>germane to any decision to switch platforms should they wish to stay with
>Logic.

Is there really such a big price difference? I don't see how since you can 
get non-Apple monitors, and externals. And if you compare similarly 
configures machines of similar quality, is there really a big difference? 
There are always "cheapo" PC's made with crap parts and/or barebones. But 
thats why PC's don't last as long as Macs - this is fairly well documented. 
And you have add various boards and things to the PCs to bring them up to 
par. There are also studies that show (in schools for example) that PC's are 
more expensive in the long run because of repairs and increased user-support 
needed - which in the case of an individual like you - means more frustration 
and more time on the line to tech support.

Before making this kind of statement, please do some research as to the c
urrent situation.

>Is there really such a big price difference? I don't see how since you can
>get non-Apple monitors, and externals. And if you compare similarly
>configures machines of similar quality, is there really a big difference?
>There are always "cheapo" PC's made with crap parts and/or barebones.

I think there is a significant difference.  OTOH a lot PC way 
overstate it.  MY purely subjective impression of it is that equally 
powered and configured PCs end up being about 1/2 to 2/3 the price of 
a Mac.

>But
>thats why PC's don't last as long as Macs - this is fairly well documented.
>And you have add various boards and things to the PCs to bring them up to
>par. There are also studies that show (in schools for example) that PC's are
>more expensive in the long run because of repairs and increased user-support
>needed - which in the case of an individual like you - means more frustration
>and more time on the line to tech support.

I have owned a PC for about 3 months and have probably devoted two 
straight work weeks to trying to make it operate properly not to 
mention actually paying a consultant to come over and help (something 
I have never dreamed of doing in 13 years of using a Mac) and guess 
what:  It still does not work right.  It still hangs all over the 
place.  This is not to say that it is not a powerful machine.  But it 
has wasted far far more of my time and money than it has saved.

TazmnianDv@...  wrote:
>>Apple's takeover and decision to make Logic Mac-only forces every PC owner
>>to consider their future and the price/performance of Macs versus PCs is
>>germane to any decision to switch platforms should they wish to stay with
>>Logic.
>
>Is there really such a big price difference? I don't see how since you can 
>get non-Apple monitors, and externals. And if you compare similarly 
>configures machines of similar quality, is there really a big difference? 
>There are always "cheapo" PC's made with crap parts and/or barebones. But 
>thats why PC's don't last as long as Macs - this is fairly well documented. 

Rubbish. Look where Apple sources most of its parts: Taiwan. Their
Powerbooks, flat screens etc are made in the same factories as components
for PC . Apple is a small company which specs the same graphics cards,
memory components, hard drives etc as PCs. It just charges a lot more for
them and in some cases like memory the type specced is out of date. 

It is not like their little boxes are full of some "top quality" stuff made
by uber-factory workers in the USA each with a PhD from Caltech. Do you
seriously believe that there are special factories which make better
quality components specially for Macs so they will last longer? Gee they
must be getting rich off that market sector. 

As far as the price difference -- haven't you read all the discussion here
and elsewhere on this of late? I can build a new PC with a 2.26 GHZ P4 and
512 MB of PC1066 RDRAM or 333MHz DDR for under 2k$ Australian. A slower G4
without monitor would be well over 5k$ and sporting slow SDRAM and poor
expansion facilities.  Which do you think I want to buy?

People who build their own PC DAWs typically buy good quality boards from
top tier makers like Asus, Abit, MSI, Gigabyte. They often junk these parts
after a few years when they upgrade to new motherboard/memory/processor --
which is cheap and easy to do -- not because they are "broken" but because
with a modest injection of cash you can double your performance every
couple of years without buying new everything.

>And you have add various boards and things to the PCs to bring them up to 
>par. 

What -- like a 30$ NIC, a $100 CDR burner? I already have those -- I don't
need to buy them again. I don't need Apple to decide for me whether I get a
Pioneer DVD burner. If I need one of those I could buy and install it and
still have 2500$ change from the price of the Mac that would underperform
the PC above by 50% or so.

>There are also studies that show (in schools for example) that PC's are 
>more expensive in the long run because of repairs and increased user-support 
>needed - which in the case of an individual like you - means more frustration 
>and more time on the line to tech support.

Absolutely irrelevant to me or anyone else who builds and maintains their
own machines.  Again you are assuming inferior components that need
repairing. So  again -- do you think the NVidia graphics cards put in Macs
are the ones that won't break down and the other 97% that are put in PCs
are the duds? 

The research you have cited may be relevant to some school where kids are
monkeying with  elcheapo Compaq machines or to organisations running
hundreds or thousands or seats for office workers where no add-in hardware
is installed. As soon as you add Audio cards/dongles etc and ASIO drivers
etc you are complicating things and if I had a dollar for every post I have
ever read from a Mac user having some technical problem with the
dongle/Audio hardware I wouldn't have to be typing this myself -- believe me.

You must imagine that these PC things just don't work. The only problem I
have had in the last 3 years that I couldn't sort quickly myself was on a
Laptop (which I didn't build obviously) and that was with some stupid
utility that Toshiba installs which screwed with my ASIO driver. I was able
to solve the problem myself as advice from Tosh support on Compuserve was
in error. 

>Before making this kind of statement, please do some research as to the c
>urrent situation.

After spouting the usual Mac propaganda/bubble-boy belief system I hardly
think_you_are in a position to patronise me. You must just screen out
everything that doesn't gel with your "Mac is best" belief system.
Please go down to the store (no  --  not the Mac store this time) and do a
bit of research before you make a fool of yourself on an online forum by
suggesting there isn't a price difference. 

Regards,
M

on 7/26/02 7:31 AM, Doesn't matter who wrote:

>> Before making this kind of statement, please do some research as to the c
>> urrent situation.
> 
> After spouting the usual Mac propaganda/bubble-boy belief system I hardly
> think_you_are in a position to patronise me. You must just screen out
> everything that doesn't gel with your "Mac is best" belief system.
> Please go down to the store (no  --  not the Mac store this time) and do a
> bit of research before you make a fool of yourself on an online forum by
> suggesting there isn't a price difference.

Just what I was afraid of starting.

Folks, it just doesn't matter.  Everyone has their opinion, and each to his
own I say.

Sometimes I think Computer Missionaries are more zealous than their
religious counterparts!

You all have some good points, and nobody will sway anyone else, so why
bother.

It's up to you of course, I wouldn't want to censor anyone, but isn't making
music more fun than slamming each other's opinions?

Ah well, Fire away!

Garth

People, this makes me feel ill.

I am amazed that there is not any great reticence in these matters of
computer platform. I am now the proud owner of both a PC and a Mac. On the
PC side I am truly grateful to my technician to solve problems at a software
level in Win 2000 that I would go crazy dealing with myself and never have
problems with on my Mac G4 upgraded beige desktop (now very aged). For this
reason the cost of ownership of the PC is much higher for me than with the
Mac and this is a typical situation in all creative areas that use
computers. I do not believe I should be expected to know _that_ much about a
computer in order to run it properly as seems to be expected in the PC
world. While people do become experts in troubleshooting these machines (I
am certain I am speaking to these experts on this list) there is ample
evidence that it the time spent fixing the problems eats into creative and
technical productivity. I feel there is nothing wrong with a person choosing
to use a PC but to pretend that the advantages of a Mac in terms of
productivity do not exists is to ignore the results of many technical
studies in this area. Do the results of these studies still apply to Win XP?
I don't know. As I said I have dealt with this type of problem by hiring
someone to deal with things when they go wrong and I have indeed needed
these services for the PC where I do not need them on my Mac.

My PC is definitely more powerful than my Mac, partly just because it is
more recent, and I am dedicating it to GigaStudio and Tassman although I can
not run both together at the same time and share the sound card, something I
could do in OS X. I put high quality silent Zaltman components into it so I
do not find it any cheaper than a PowerMac and indeed most of the music DAWs
based on PCs for music are no cheaper than Macs and some are very costly
indeed. The silent feature is also not something I can get on my Mac so it
goes both ways. 

I think it is really tiresome to have people who have lots of knowledge of
one platform to start lecturing people who use the other one. As a Mac user
I am certain that the future of OS X is very bright and that it will offer
significant advantages to its users. I also think that the hardware on the
PC side will also offer many advantages to music users at a lower cost and
that the cost always will be lower. It is also quite crass and ignorant of
PC users to assume that Apple will not be able to deal with any situation in
which the speed of the computing platform will fall behind what is available
in the PC. Assuming stupidity of the Mac community and the people who run
Apple is annoying and arrogant. In fact the situation it is just the
opposite. Jobs has insisted that OS X be entirely independent of the
processor. He anticipated the current situation and has prepared for it. All
the indications and rumors are that OS X is going to migrate to a new 64 bit
processor either form IBM or AMD. This will be easy to implement as soon as
OS 9 has bit the dust. I suspect that Jobs would like to do it sooner rather
than later because he is very keen to kill OS 9 for a variety of reasons and
such a migration would be the perfect way of putting the nails in the
coffin.

I also see a big problem in my writing this post. When we really come down
to it I know sweet-f*ch-all about this field. I am a musician and composer
and I am simply trying to stick-handle (a Canadian term) my way through this
morass of confusion that is the world of personal computers and DAWs.
Maintaining good judgement is really hard in these circumstances. We need to
be passing on information and advice and showing a proper understanding of
the relative merits of these differing styles of computing. The contempt
shown to each there is really unproductive since many of us are likely to
want to use both anyway.

Regards

 
-- Paul Nicholls
New Traditions Media
#421-6450 East Boulevard
Vancouver BC
V6M 3V9
604 269-9202
paulnicholls@...

> From: Garth Hemphill <ghemphill@...>
> Reply-To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 11:08:02 -0700
> To: logic-ot@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [L-OT] Re: Nice Future!
> 
> on 7/26/02 7:31 AM, Doesn't matter who wrote:
> 
>>> Before making this kind of statement, please do some research as to the c
>>> urrent situation.
>> 
>> After spouting the usual Mac propaganda/bubble-boy belief system I hardly
>> think_you_are in a position to patronise me. You must just screen out
>> everything that doesn't gel with your "Mac is best" belief system.
>> Please go down to the store (no  --  not the Mac store this time) and do a
>> bit of research before you make a fool of yourself on an online forum by
>> suggesting there isn't a price difference.
> 
> Just what I was afraid of starting.
> 
> Folks, it just doesn't matter.  Everyone has their opinion, and each to his
> own I say.
> 
> Sometimes I think Computer Missionaries are more zealous than their
> religious counterparts!
> 
> You all have some good points, and nobody will sway anyone else, so why
> bother.
> 
> It's up to you of course, I wouldn't want to censor anyone, but isn't making
> music more fun than slamming each other's opinions?
> 
> Ah well, Fire away!
> 
> Garth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

paulnicholls@... writes:

>People, this makes me feel ill.
etc.....

as a fulltime professional musician working on both platforms --- but, 
primarily mac--- for some years, i thank you for your socially pithy & 
insightful post.
i hope that these adolescently proselytising platform wars will find a way to 
morph into reasonable discussions, someday..... maybe, when i grow up.....
best,
dt / splattercell

>Rubbish. Look where Apple sources most of its parts: 

Their CRT monitors were made by Sony and their printers were made by Canon. 
Although that information has become outdated, Apple always seems to use only 
top grade components. In the past years, they have used some PC materials to 
save costs, but they are often the first to incorporate various technologies 
(floppy disks, USB, firewire, writable DVDs, etc). 

If you think I'm wrong, why is it that so many PC's break down so fast? I was 
teaching in a brand new PC labs 2 years ago with 45 computers - and there 
were NEVER less than 5 computers broken at any time - even when they were 
brand new! On the other hand, you have to kill old macs with a stick. I have 
a 6 year old Mac 7500 which still works fine and never gave me any trouble - 
I'm probably going to donate it to a school or something. They just keep 
ticking.

And of course, its not really fair to compare a hobbyist "built it yourself 
from components" computer with one professionally made. Compare a high end PC 
with Windows, graphic cards, sound cards, usb/firewire/scsci/ethernet cards.

Then when you factor in the incompatibilities, the disease of use, the 
user-unfriendliness, and shoddy corner cutting of Windows, it makes the Mac 
the  real bargain.

Why are Mac users so loyal, if it weren't a great machine?

>1. My last post made it clear that Colin was in fact concerned with present
>and future performance of Macs -- just not specially realistic about it.

That's the view of many PC users when the Power PC was released and the
lowest model was twice the speed of the fastest pentium. I'm not saying
this will be the case coming up, I'm just syaing if they did it before, why
should it be any more unrealistic now than it has been in the past. Just
because the numbers are different, it's all relative anyways. Back then
when they came out with a 93Mhz computer it was completely unheard of,
compared to the big 33Mhz machines. So, unlikely yes. Unrealistic, not at
all, especially from a company who is known for surprising the world with
inovation again and again.

Colin Miller

The horned one wrote:

>Their CRT monitors were made by Sony and their printers were made by Canon. 
>Although that information has become outdated, Apple always seems to use only 
>top grade components. 

Now that you mention it -- they seem to have an Apple logo on them don't
they. Hmm -- how did I miss that. 

>And of course, its not really fair to compare a hobbyist "built it yourself 
>from components" computer with one professionally made. Compare a high end PC 
>with Windows, graphic cards, sound cards, usb/firewire/scsci/ethernet cards.

Oh. ... One of those.  Hmmm ... gee.  I don't think my one has all that
complicated sounding stuff. 

Do you think I would _really_ need to stump up for a graphics card? My
pocketmoney only stretches so far. 
Couldn't I just go on making kazoo noises with my mouth and banging on the
box Logic came in?

>Then when you factor in the incompatibilities, the disease of use, the 
>user-unfriendliness, and shoddy corner cutting of Windows, it makes the Mac 
>the  real bargain.
>
>Why are Mac users so loyal, if it weren't a great machine?

This is a profound question whether you realise it or not. I honestly don't
know -- but then again I don't understand why people were so loyal to Om
Supreme Truth either or why Charles Manson's followers were prepared to
kill for him. Perhaps people realise when they have reached the limit of
their technical competence. 

I know I do. If I get in my car in the morning and it just won't go I clean
out the ashtray and turn the radio on and off a few times. If it still
won't go I know what to do. I simply admit defeat and just buy another one
of a different brand. No doubt as a brother in technophobia you arrived at
your Mac by a similar process. You and Jobs are made for each other. As one
of his more perspicacious and ethical advanced countrymen was heard to
remark -- "There's one born every minute". 

PS -- Are you what people on some of these groups mean by a "troll"? 

Could you explain the concept to me? Privately might be better. I think
some of the other people here don't really understand the necessity for all
this. Neither do I, come to think of it.

Oh dear ... not the send button ... Whoops!

Love,
M

So why hit the send then?! Macs are cooler, don¹t waist our time:)

> I think
> some of the other people here don't really understand the necessity for all
> this. Neither do I, come to think of it.
> 
> Oh dear ... not the send button ... Whoops!

> If you think I'm wrong, why is it that so many PC's break down so
> fast? I was
> teaching in a brand new PC labs 2 years ago with 45 computers - and there
> were NEVER less than 5 computers broken at any time - even when they were
> brand new!

Please! The SAME level of stability and durability is around for both
platforms. YOU have to know what you are doing on each platform to acheive
it - thats all. PCs_can be more expensive than Macs you know, would you
prefer
them then?

> Then when you factor in the incompatibilities, the disease of use,

thats why my fingers are falling off!

> user-unfriendliness, and shoddy corner cutting of Windows, it
> makes the Mac
> the  real bargain.

....er

> Why are Mac users so loyal, if it weren't a great machine?

Because they commited big bucks? ;-))
Anyway, it_is a great platform. All i'm saying is that there is one
other great alternative out there and it is gaining ground everyday. Why
do you think Apple really discontinued the PC line of Logic?

cheers,
Adam P

>I don't understand why people were so loyal to Om
>Supreme Truth either or why Charles Manson's followers were prepared to
>kill for him. Perhaps people realise when they have reached the limit of
>their technical competence. 


50 million followers of Manson-like Steve Jobs spread all over the world? Hmm 
quite a large cult don't you think. Trying to imagine your comments are 
serious for 
a moment, I think the situation is like BMW drivers loving their cars - a 
concept 
that the KIA, Isuzu, and Daewood drivers think is silly. "Why pay $80,000 for 
a car? 
I can buy a new Daewoo for $13,999." Isn't that your thinking Murray?


>BTW, the G4 is probably the worst computer built 

More generally .... Why don't we follow Splattercells (slightly crusty) 
advice and not engage in these
childish discussions. If people are interested in having a genuine discussion 
with an 
open mind, then fine, we can all learn. But if are just bitter because of 
Emagic's
new policy, and have plenty of misperceptions about Macs, please don't just 
insult and attack for sport.

I use PCs at work all the time, and still consider them to be 2nd rate in 
ease of use, or maybe 3rd rate - although I have to admit they seem to work a 
little snappier. I'm also unhappy about a number of things Apple does. I'm 
not happy with OS X, and the expense of buying new software for it, and 
having some of my old stuff not work anymore. If there were a better 
alternative to Macs, I would consider it.  A Billy Box (Windows) is not the 
answer for me - and falling victim to the worst industrial monopolist of our 
time is not a welcoming thought either.

This should be the 'Right of Topic' list. Anyway...............just venting
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Matt McKenzie-Smith
PO Box 10395
Adelaide BC 5000 
South Australia

+618(0)82938282
+61(0)416 197 883
mattrixx@...