The Logic Off Topic list

> >It´s a shame to loose very valuable people because the weird admin.
> >politics here.
> 
> It's an even bigger shame not to be able to handle the heat in the
> kitchen. The admins do an admirable and largely thankless job. This
> is a great list and I like the focus, and I consider that focus to be
> a result of the admin's thoughtful action. I am grateful.
> 

Every list administration seems to become autocratic at some point. Its 
strange how it always seems to happen that way. It must be some set of normal human 
thought processes which progress from "hey let me volunteer my time to help" 
... to "you're rejected, you're blocked, you're banned, ...". Maybe its kind 
of a school marm instinct, and power goes to the head. I have seen other lists 
which are much worse, where the admin bans people the first time anything is 
said they don't like, and other lists where the admin publicly chastises 
people. So the LUG moderators are above that - and generally do a good and 
reasonable job. But they have their attitudes and prejudices too. And I think several 
of them were great guys when they were "just subscribers" but then seemed to 
get a bit of a fascist streak when absolute power came into their hands. I think 
its a shame, because these moderators don't "own" Logic or the users. 


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On 16.06.2005, at 02:58, TazmnianDv@... wrote:

>>> It´s a shame to loose very valuable people because the weird admin.
>>> politics here.
>>
>> It's an even bigger shame not to be able to handle the heat in the
>> kitchen....
>
> ...So the LUG moderators are above that - and generally do a good and
> reasonable job. But they have their attitudes and prejudices too...

I agree but would like to throw in that I do not see a problem with  
the human nature but with the nature of mailing lists, which are a  
very special kind of communication. I mean, we cannot invent a new  
and somehow unpersonal form of communication and blame people if they  
do not perfectly handle it according to our own personal imaginations.

Just three examples which might illustrate what I want to say:

I moderated a professional pre-press list with about 200 subscribers  
for amateurs and professionals. There was not much to do but an  
occasionally "please come back to the subject, we cannot follow you".

I moderated a kids list for scientific questions, officially for kids  
between 12 and 14 years. There were just few, but some older boys  
started to make subtile terror. The others handled that somehow but I  
really ran into problems because I felt like a teacher in their  
school. My brain said "let them learn to cope with that" and my heart  
said "fire those little bastards". Btw, I took the name Gabriel as  
the moderators name, which turned out as a silly idea. The kids  
checked immediately what was meant and the bad boys didn't like nor  
respect angels :-)

The German 4D list is a forum for database developers of all flavours  
who use this environment. Some play just a little, some deal with  
mission-critical stuff. List owner is the software manufacturer,  
moderator and "wisest man" regarding the program is the CEO - and  
that is not a small company! Never saw flames there, the list is not  
moderated. If you start getting nasty you would not be thrown out but  
never ever get a reply to one of your future problems from anybody on  
the list. You have to return to direct communication and for most  
problems that requires a maintainance agreement (payed, of course).

The 4D list I mentioned above has a rare form of platform wars,  
integrated in daily life. People fight by trying to bite their own  
ass and then ask the manufacturer if it hurts. That is because most  
of them develop on and for both platforms - their clients say which  
version they want :-)

--

I admire people who moderate the LUG and participate at the same  
time. The moderators are accepted but often put in the role of "the  
people behind with more power than they deserve" . If a moderator has  
a problem with Logic or writes just some nonsense for fun that  
irritates many members. Human nature.

--

Mh, off-topic lists are not good for me. You have to stop me somehow  
to avoid finding a Peter-ized version of Macbeth here some day... :o)

___
Peter Ostry

At 20:58 Uhr -0400 15.06.2005, TazmnianDv@... wrote:
>  I have seen other lists which are much worse, where the admin bans 
>people the first time anything is said they don't like, and other 
>lists where the admin publicly chastises
>people. So the LUG moderators are above that - and generally do a good and
>reasonable job. But they have their attitudes and prejudices too. 
>And I think several
>of them were great guys when they were "just subscribers" but then seemed to
>get a bit of a fascist streak when absolute power came into their 
>hands. I think
>its a shame, because these moderators don't "own" Logic or the users.

I don't  think so.

In my experience the moderation is strictly done according to the 
policies of the list.

I do believe that messages seem to slip through every now and then... 
and this may cause the impression that some people are being more 
moderated than others. I'm sure it's unintentional though.

Cheers
Hans

In a message dated 6/15/05 9:39:41 PM, hanshafner@... writes:


> n my experience the moderation is strictly done according to the
> policies of the list.
> 

No there is an underground of people who are unhappy with the moderation - 
but you never hear from them because they keep quiet out of fear of reprisals, 
or they leave, or they get banned. I have been in contact with people of each 
type.

I am thankful for the job the moderators do. And I quite admired Joeri and 
the job he did. I think its a time consuming job and they generally do it well. 
But the attitude of being "all powerful" goes to their heads on one hand, and 
then there are "special" people who can do and say anything. Actually someone 
emailed me privately and first mentioned that to me, and I have seen its true.

But whatever. Life goes on. The world is full of injustice, the greedy taking 
advantage of the poor, the big countries bullying the little ones, and so 
forth. So in the big scheme, it doesn't matter what happens on the LUG. 


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