Lpc2000

I have a couple of LPC2148, thanks to EXCELLENT Phillips sample program.

I don't want to build a specific project right now, so i prefer to
solder them to a generic proto-board, and use this board to experiment.

Searching on the net, i found SchmartBoards (http://www.schmartboard.com/)
They say that even a 10-year old can solder a .5mm QFP.

Have anyone of you tried SchmartBoards, or have a better advice?

Thank you and happy new year.
Akis

Those look pretty neat and easy, but really it's not a tough task soldering 
.5mm QFP on your own.  For any surface mount components it's extremely 
useful to have a nice binocular microscope, around the 7x magnification 
range.  One on a boom is much better.  Once you have that, it's pretty easy 
to do all SM work, check for shorts, etc.  Even without it's not terribly 
difficult, but you'll need some sort of magnifying glass to at least check 
the work.  Placement isn't difficult either, especially once you've done a 
few and know the tricks.  I'd probably say that 99% of all experienced 
electrical engineers CAN solder 0.5mm QFP on their own, not the other way 
around.

Considering how you can get a prototype double sided board made for like 
$30 USD (roughly 4"x6" in size), you may be better off designing a module 
yourself with all required supporting circuitry (osc, regulators, caps, 
rs232, usb, etc) that can be reused for multiple projects, you can likely 
get 4 modules out of a single 4"x6" sheet.  Just a thought.

-- Sean

At 05:07 PM 12/30/2005, you wrote:

>I have a couple of LPC2148, thanks to EXCELLENT Phillips sample program.
>
>I don't want to build a specific project right now, so i prefer to
>solder them to a generic proto-board, and use this board to experiment.
>
>Searching on the net, i found SchmartBoards 
>(<http://www.schmartboard.com/)>http://www.schmartboard.com/)
>They say that even a 10-year old can solder a .5mm QFP.
>
>Have anyone of you tried SchmartBoards, or have a better advice?

Sean wrote:

>Those look pretty neat and easy, but really it's not a tough task soldering 
>.5mm QFP on your own.  For any surface mount components it's extremely 
>useful to have a nice binocular microscope, around the 7x magnification 
>range.  One on a boom is much better.  Once you have that, it's pretty easy 
>to do all SM work, check for shorts, etc.  Even without it's not terribly 
>difficult, but you'll need some sort of magnifying glass to at least check 
>the work.  Placement isn't difficult either, especially once you've done a 
>few and know the tricks.  I'd probably say that 99% of all experienced 
>electrical engineers CAN solder 0.5mm QFP on their own, not the other way 
>around.
>
>Considering how you can get a prototype double sided board made for like 
>$30 USD (roughly 4"x6" in size), you may be better off designing a module 
>yourself with all required supporting circuitry (osc, regulators, caps, 
>rs232, usb, etc) that can be reused for multiple projects, you can likely 
>get 4 modules out of a single 4"x6" sheet.  Just a thought.
>
>  
>
I agree, you can hand solder 0.5mm but it is tough to keep from getting 
solder bridges between pins, or the absolute worst is when you get a 
bridge "behind" a pair of pins!

I'd done handsolder down to 0.8mm, then hot-air pencil + syringe paste 
applicator at 0.5mm.  This is with a commerially made board with a 
solder mask.  What I use now is a toaster oven and mylar stencil (thanks 
to SparkFun!).  It is the absolute easiest way I've found to build SMD 
boards!

My current board has 140+ SMD components on it, ranging from 0805, to 
SSOP, to 0.5mm TSSOP / QFP.  It only took 2hours to setup, paste, apply 
parts and reflow using the stencil + oven.  I would not think to attempt 
a board as complex as this (and as small) by hand, you always get too 
much paste or it won't flow right and it bridges...

I use Advanced Circuits (http://4pcb.com), check out their $33 special: 
full silkscreen, paste / solder mask, and resolution down to 7mil.  
After many years of etching my own boards, I let someone else do the 
dirty work.  :P

Myself, I'd be very leary of the claims that the Schmart Board people 
make.  Soldering SMD _is_ a PITA.  BTW, I do have a 10X / 20X binocular 
microscope, 20X makes it possible to solder jumper wires to the 0.5mm 
pins (now, if my hands would only stop shaking).

Regards,

TomW



-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "bigakisgr" <bigakisgr@...>
To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 10:07 PM
Subject: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148


>I have a couple of LPC2148, thanks to EXCELLENT Phillips sample program.
>
> I don't want to build a specific project right now, so i prefer to
> solder them to a generic proto-board, and use this board to experiment.
>
> Searching on the net, i found SchmartBoards (http://www.schmartboard.com/)
> They say that even a 10-year old can solder a .5mm QFP.
>
> Have anyone of you tried SchmartBoards, or have a better advice?

Drag soldering works very well for fine-pitch devices. I use a Metcal system 
with a special mini-hoof tip, it just takes a few seconds.

Leon

> I have a couple of LPC2148, thanks to EXCELLENT Phillips sample program.
> 
> I don't want to build a specific project right now, so i prefer to
> solder them to a generic proto-board, and use this board to experiment.
> 
> Searching on the net, i found SchmartBoards (http://www.schmartboard.com/)
> They say that even a 10-year old can solder a .5mm QFP.
> 
> Have anyone of you tried SchmartBoards, or have a better advice?

Use a de-soldering braid to remove any excess solder, and depending on the
type of solder you use don't be shy with the liquid flux.

Joel

If you run with Leon's suggestion this is not an issue.  Most of the 
manufacturers have drag tips & with a bit of practice these make .5mm QFP's a 
doddle.  There is a video on the net somewhere, google should find it.  The 
other good suggestion was the bino microscope.  With these two smd is a non-issue.

Don

Joel Winarske wrote:
>>I have a couple of LPC2148, thanks to EXCELLENT Phillips sample program.
>>
>>I don't want to build a specific project right now, so i prefer to
>>solder them to a generic proto-board, and use this board to experiment.
>>
>>Searching on the net, i found SchmartBoards (http://www.schmartboard.com/)
>>They say that even a 10-year old can solder a .5mm QFP.
>>
>>Have anyone of you tried SchmartBoards, or have a better advice?
> 
> 
> Use a de-soldering braid to remove any excess solder, and depending on the
> type of solder you use don't be shy with the liquid flux.
> 
> Joel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 


-- 
Cheers

Don Ingram


Leading Edge Design

Mob:   +61 4 1877 5670
Ph :   +61 7 4942 5670
SIP: 899 060 4942 5670

Fax:   +61 7 4942 5680

23 Daniel St
North Mackay
QLD 4740
Australia

P.O. Box 10326
Mt Pleasant
QLD 4740
Australia

> If you run with Leon's suggestion this is not an issue.  Most of the
> manufacturers have drag tips & with a bit of practice these make .5mm
> QFP's a
> doddle.  There is a video on the net somewhere, google should find it.
> The
> other good suggestion was the bino microscope.  With these two smd is a
> non-issue.

My paste solder experience is somewhat limited, though I have 20 years
experience with the core solder.  I'll look into the drag technique.


Joel

I just watched a "drag soldering" instructional video.  It involved applying
liquid flux to the unsoldered joints, then taking a smaller chisel style
tip, applying some core solder and dragging the iron across the pins.
Nothing I haven't done before, now it just has a name.

> If you run with Leon's suggestion this is not an issue.  Most of the
> manufacturers have drag tips & with a bit of practice these make .5mm
> QFP's a
> doddle.  There is a video on the net somewhere, google should find it.
> The
> other good suggestion was the bino microscope.  With these two smd is a
> non-issue.
>

I always wanted to try SMD for the longest time but was always afraid
to even attempt it.  I knew there was no way I would be able to hand
solder them, and the whole solder paste and toaster oven thing just
seemed like such a hassle.  Then I took a contract job with a small
robotics company and my preconceptions were smashed.

They had a technician there that could solder fine pitch packages in a
few seconds.  Half of that time was lining the package up, the second
half was soldering.  I couldnt believe it, he was so fast, and he was
using tools that I already had.  He was like a machine.

I spent about 30 minutes with him and he showed me the tricks.  Its
simple. I will try and talk you through the steps I use.

Before you even start, you have to have a couple tools.  Most people
need some sort of magnification.  I cant afford a nice binocular
setup, so I just use one of those lenses that is on an arm and you
swing it down in front of you. Something like this,
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/9360-0008/. 
This one is expensive, but if you go to a sewing shop or a hobby shop
you should be able to find one much cheaper.  The next thing you need
is a fine soldering tip, hoof tips are not necessary.  I use a bent
.016" tip from Weller.  You will also need solder, not the kind you
get at Radio Shack.  Radio Shack's solder is way to thick and you
always end up using much more than you need.  I use
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/4800-0061/.  Its
.025" diameter with a water soluble flux core.  Next is flux.  You
will DEFINITELY need flux.  Flux is the only reason you will be able
to solder these packages.  I use a flux that matches the properties of
my solder,
http://www.hmcelectronics.com/cgi-bin/scripts/product/4800-0032/.  You
dont have to buy it by the gallon, so its not as expensive as it
seems.  The solder and flux are organic water soluble substances, so
after you do all your work, you have to wash the board off.  I just
run it under warm water and use a mild dish soap.

Now you are ready to start.  First step is clean your board to get rid
of any oils.  I just wipe it down with alcohol.  Then place your part,
just work each side a little at a time and before you know it, it will
be lined up on the pads.  I found that using some fine tipped curved
tweezers really makes it easier.  I just push the pins ever so gently.
 Now hose the part down with flux, dont be afraid, you cant use too
much (please use proper ventilation, solders and fluxes contain
poisons).  With a clean soldering iron tip gently press the solder to
the tip and transfer as little as you possibly can.  If you do too
much, just clean your iron and do it again.  Now just place the iron
tip on some pins, careful not to move the package and do not worry
about bridging the pins.  You are only trying to anchor the part, dont
try to spread the solder.  Repeat the process for some pins on the
other side of the package.  Now your part is firmly planted to the
board in the correct location.

Its easy now, just put a tiny bit of solder on your iron and run it
along the a row of pins.  Dont worry about bridging.  You will see the
the solder will follow your iron up and down the pins, gently coating
the pins with solder, its like magic.  If the solder is not following
your iron, you need more flux; throw some on.  Until you learn how
much solder to put on your iron, you are going to have too much and
you are going to have pins bridged.  Relax, its no big deal.  Just
clean your iron, add more flux if you need it and run the tip up and
down the row again.  Repeat this, clean and run step, a couple times
and you will have picked up the excess solder.  Now, to fix the
bridges, just gently swipe the pins quickly with the iron in an
outward motion, away from the package.  Start at the package and move
to the tips of the pins.  Dont run the iron up and down the pins like
before, the motion you want is perpendicular to that.  Now, it should
only take a couple times to remove the bridges.  If its not working,
you still have too much solder.  Clean your iron, add flux and get rid
of some solder like described earlier.

Do that for each row of pins on your package and your done.  Wash the
board and Bobs your uncle.  You are now an expert and you can take
your hobbying to a whole new level.  Bonus, you can charge your
friends a couple bucks to assemble for them.

It sounds much worse than it is.  You only need to see it once to
realize how easy it truly is.  If you are going to do this kind of
work I would recommend a hot air station.  Its technically not
necessary, but it will save you a bunch of headaches and time when you
solder the part on backwards or whatever other boneheaded mistake you
make.  They really arent that expensive anymore, you can pick up some
pretty cheap knock offs.  Heres on for $130, its Hakko knock off,
http://www.madelltech.com/M3-4.html.  There are cheaper ones out there.

As far as buying carriers boards to mount chips, I would recommend
making your own.  Use www.BatchPCB.com to order your very low run PCBs
(read: 1 or 2 boards), its run by the guys from sparkfun.com.  They
charge $2.50 sq/in with a $10 setup fee.  So you could make your
LPC2148 carrier board for half the price and you could even add room
for supporting components.

If none of this makes sense let me know I will try to do a better job.
 Hope it helps someone.

Vern

> This one is expensive, but if you go to a sewing shop or a hobby shop
> you should be able to find one much cheaper.  The next thing you need
> is a fine soldering tip, hoof tips are not necessary.  

No offence intended but the reason why we use concave tips is precisely to avoid 
the following...

> Its easy now, just put a tiny bit of solder on your iron and run it
> along the a row of pins.  Dont worry about bridging.  You will see the
> the solder will follow your iron up and down the pins, gently coating
> the pins with solder, its like magic.  If the solder is not following
> your iron, you need more flux; throw some on.  Until you learn how
> much solder to put on your iron, you are going to have too much and
> you are going to have pins bridged.  Relax, its no big deal.  Just
> clean your iron, add more flux if you need it and run the tip up and
> down the row again.  Repeat this, clean and run step, a couple times
> and you will have picked up the excess solder.  Now, to fix the
> bridges, just gently swipe the pins quickly with the iron in an
> outward motion, away from the package.  Start at the package and move
> to the tips of the pins.  Dont run the iron up and down the pins like
> before, the motion you want is perpendicular to that.  Now, it should
> only take a couple times to remove the bridges.  If its not working,
> you still have too much solder.  Clean your iron, add flux and get rid
> of some solder like described earlier.
> 

Repeatedly re-heating the joint to do clean up tasks alters the alloy mix and 
creates embrittlement in the joint which later may lead to joint failure.  The 
concave tip is a single pass process, no solder clean-up, no reheating. General 
rule is to hit it once & that's it, don't be tempted to go back over it again 
The joints may look prettier but will in all likelihood be far weaker.

Generally any tip which has thermal mass greater than the joint will attract 
solder away from the joint leaving an optimal fillet, some people prefer flat 
blades which cover a few pins at a time e.g. is heating a new pin while drawing 
across middle pins and snapping the fillet away from the trailing pin.


-- 
Cheers

Don

I am using schmartboard for last 2 months and its technology is a bit 
interesting. You can make a full prototype board joining their 2"x2" 
boards all together. Although it is easy and smooth technology; but it 
would be a bit expensive from the soldering view.  

I am a student and don't wish to let the $s go away for prototyping. 
So, I use adhesive method (no soldering) to join my chips on 
schmartboard. In this case I don't have to worry about short circuit, 
painful soldering process (at least to me), chip wastage etc. 
And it works great. 
 
So, from adhesive view schmartboard is cheaper than other proto 
systems. 

Thanks.   

--- In lpc2000@yahoogroups.com, "bigakisgr" <bigakisgr@y...> wrote:
>
> I have a couple of LPC2148, thanks to EXCELLENT Phillips sample 
program.
> 
> I don't want to build a specific project right now, so i prefer to
> solder them to a generic proto-board, and use this board to 
experiment.
> 
> Searching on the net, i found SchmartBoards (http://www.
schmartboard.com/)

> They say that even a 10-year old can solder a .5mm QFP.
> 
> Have anyone of you tried SchmartBoards, or have a better advice?
> 
> Thank you and happy new year.
> Akis
>

> No offence intended but the reason why we use concave tips is
precisely to avoid

None taken, I didnt mention it to directly counter the hoof tip
statement in that way.  I meant it in that, to do the job, you dont
need to spend a lot of money on new equipment.  Many soldering
irons/stations dont offer hoof tips, mine included.

Your point is well taken about heating joints multiple times.  I will
have to try a blade tip and see how well it works.  Although I have
gotten very good with my round bent tip, which may work in a very
similar manor to the blade.  Once you do a couple and learn your
tools, it becomes less and less necessary to reheat joints.

I made a comment at the end of my post about hobbying.  I should have
been more clear.  I would never and have never assembled production
units in this manor, and would recommend the same to anyone.  That
said, it works great for prototypes and proof of concept work, or just
hobbying around.

Thanks for setting me straight Don,

Vern

Tom Walsh wrote:

>
>
> My current board has 140+ SMD components on it, ranging from 0805, to
> SSOP, to 0.5mm TSSOP / QFP.  It only took 2hours to setup, paste, apply
> parts and reflow using the stencil + oven.  I would not think to attempt
> a board as complex as this (and as small) by hand, you always get too
> much paste or it won't flow right and it bridges...
>
What oven do you have?

/Ake

I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do 
people buy theese?

/Ake

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148


>I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do
> people buy theese?

You can buy solder paste in syringes, complete with needle. I recently got 
some from Warton Metals:

http://www.warton-metals.co.uk/

Leon

Leon Heller wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
> To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148
>
>
> >I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do
> > people buy theese?
>
> You can buy solder paste in syringes, complete with needle. I recently 
> got
> some from Warton Metals:
>
> http://www.warton-metals.co.uk/
>
> Leon
>
>
 
Thanks Leon,  I should have written with needle. This company seam to 
have what I am looking for.

/Ake


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> make.  They really arent that expensive anymore, you can pick up some
> pretty cheap knock offs.  Heres on for $130, its Hakko knock off,
> http://www.madelltech.com/M3-4.html.  There are cheaper ones out there.
>

Check AOYUE\ufffd:
http://shop.wiltec.info/

Tom Walsh wrote:
> 
> My current board has 140+ SMD components on it, ranging from 0805, to 
> SSOP, to 0.5mm TSSOP / QFP.  It only took 2hours to setup, paste, apply 
> parts and reflow using the stencil + oven.  I would not think to attempt 
> a board as complex as this (and as small) by hand, you always get too 
> much paste or it won't flow right and it bridges...
> 

How do you create and use the stencils?

Pete Harrison

Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:

>Tom Walsh wrote:
>
>  
>
>>My current board has 140+ SMD components on it, ranging from 0805, to
>>SSOP, to 0.5mm TSSOP / QFP.  It only took 2hours to setup, paste, apply
>>parts and reflow using the stencil + oven.  I would not think to attempt
>>a board as complex as this (and as small) by hand, you always get too
>>much paste or it won't flow right and it bridges...
>>
>>    
>>
>What oven do you have?
>
>  
>
Oster model 6293, $69 at Target.  It is a 1500W, four element, 
convection oven.  The convection fan appears to gently circulate the air 
rather than stir it.  Temperature dial shows Fahrenhiet and Celsius.   
When you put the oven on the BAKE position, it energizes all 4 elements.

TomW

-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

Peter Harrison wrote:

>Tom Walsh wrote:
>  
>
>>My current board has 140+ SMD components on it, ranging from 0805, to 
>>SSOP, to 0.5mm TSSOP / QFP.  It only took 2hours to setup, paste, apply 
>>parts and reflow using the stencil + oven.  I would not think to attempt 
>>a board as complex as this (and as small) by hand, you always get too 
>>much paste or it won't flow right and it bridges...
>>
>>    
>>
>
>How do you create and use the stencils?
>
>  
>
Best for you to do is goto the sparkfun article:
http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/SMD_Printing/SMD_Printing.htm

The folks at pololu.com do a fine job on the stencils.


TomW

-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:

>I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do 
>people buy theese?
>
>  
>
I also use these:

http://www.zeph.com/pencil.html
http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
http://www.zeph.com/zt5_dir.htm

It is nice to use the pnuematic paste applicator, it is great for 
rework.  Your hands can get very tired (not fooling you), trying to 
force that paste out a tiny needle!

For building the board, a paste stencil + toaster oven is definately the 
way to go!


TomW


-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

you can buy at stores that sells food and other merchandise for larger animals
  like horses and others or veterinary supplies at very low cost.
   
  Good luck.
   
  Yvon.
  

"Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...> wrote:
  I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do 
people buy theese?

/Ake



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom Walsh wrote:

> Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:
>
> >I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do
> >people buy theese?
> >
> > 
> >
> I also use these:
>
> http://www.zeph.com/pencil.html
> http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
> http://www.zeph.com/zt5_dir.htm
>
> It is nice to use the pnuematic paste applicator, it is great for
> rework.  Your hands can get very tired (not fooling you), trying to
> force that paste out a tiny needle!
>
> For building the board, a paste stencil + toaster oven is definately the
> way to go!
>
>
> TomW
>
>
> -- 

Tom thanks!

A dispenser would be good to have.

I use a pre-heater today 
(http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm) 
and it works fine for small cards following a temperature profile manually.

An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller 
series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a 
suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and putting 
in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it 
has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)

/Ake

-- 
 ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavagen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 0533 146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      
Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

Rock Dubois wrote:

> you can buy at stores that sells food and other merchandise for larger 
> animals
>   like horses and others or veterinary supplies at very low cost.
>   
>   Good luck.
>   
>   Yvon.
>  

Hi Yvon,

never though about that source. Checked one supplier here in Sweden and 
found that I need a paper from a vet. to be allowed to buy them. Have to 
check that I guess.

Thanks!
/Ake

-- 
 ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavagen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 0533 146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      
Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148


> Tom Walsh wrote:
>
>> Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:
>>
>> >I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do
>> >people buy theese?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> I also use these:
>>
>> http://www.zeph.com/pencil.html
>> http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
>> http://www.zeph.com/zt5_dir.htm
>>
>> It is nice to use the pnuematic paste applicator, it is great for
>> rework.  Your hands can get very tired (not fooling you), trying to
>> force that paste out a tiny needle!
>>
>> For building the board, a paste stencil + toaster oven is definately the
>> way to go!
>>
>>
>> TomW
>>
>>
>> -- 
>
> Tom thanks!
>
> A dispenser would be good to have.
>
> I use a pre-heater today
> (http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm)
> and it works fine for small cards following a temperature profile 
> manually.
>
> An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller
> series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a
> suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and putting
> in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it
> has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)

The Jan 2006 issue of Elektor has a design for temperature controlled 
toaster oven. I bought one before Xmas from Argos for just under 20 GBP, it 
has two quartz elements on top and two underneath.

Leon

Leon Heller wrote:

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
>To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 4:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148
>
>
>  
>
>>Tom Walsh wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. Where do
>>>>people buy theese?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I also use these:
>>>
>>>http://www.zeph.com/pencil.html
>>>http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
>>>http://www.zeph.com/zt5_dir.htm
>>>
>>>It is nice to use the pnuematic paste applicator, it is great for
>>>rework.  Your hands can get very tired (not fooling you), trying to
>>>force that paste out a tiny needle!
>>>
>>>For building the board, a paste stencil + toaster oven is definately the
>>>way to go!
>>>
>>>
>>>TomW
>>>
>>>
>>>-- 
>>>      
>>>
>>Tom thanks!
>>
>>A dispenser would be good to have.
>>
>>I use a pre-heater today
>>(http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm)
>>and it works fine for small cards following a temperature profile 
>>manually.
>>
>>An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller
>>series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a
>>suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and putting
>>in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it
>>has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)
>>    
>>
>
>The Jan 2006 issue of Elektor has a design for temperature controlled 
>toaster oven. I bought one before Xmas from Argos for just under 20 GBP, it 
>has two quartz elements on top and two underneath.
>
>  
>
Actually, I don't use any temperature control other than what is in the 
Oster oven.  I don't know if the dial is calibrated, but it works.  The 
oven does have the quartz elements, major reason that I purchased it, 
and I follow a:

1.5 minutes @ 125C (preheat)
1 minute @ 140C (staging)
1 minute @ 180C (reflow)

30 seconds into the 180C, the paste melts on the smaller parts and about 
10 seconds the larger parts' paste melts.  I hold the heat for that 
additional 10..20 seconds, then shut the oven off and crack open the 
door to spill the heat.  Over the next minute, I slowly and gently, 
fully open the door, slide the grille out to expose the PCB to ambient air.

After about 30 seconds in ambient, I use needle nose pliers to grasp the 
board and remove it.   Meanwhile, I have a "slab" of aluminum waiting, 
this is about 3/8" (100mm) thick, by 10" X 10" (25cm X 25cm).  I gently 
slide the PCB onto the aluminum plate to suck the heat from the PCB.

What I have found is that you can leave the board in the heat for too 
long.  I tried a preheat of 3.5 minutes and the resulting solder looked 
like there may have been some embrittlement (under microscope), the 
shorting the preheat time (to boil out water) results in shiny joints.

If you reference the article on Sparkfun, you'll note that they are 
using SOP devices, fairly large.  They are manually holding the stencil 
in place.  With a significantly sized TSSOP board, it is impossible to 
maintain alignment! What I do is to "pin" the board in place by 
surrounding it with like thickness PCB material.  Then carefully 
position the stencil and tape it down.

I've found that the stencil will shift when you attempt to remove your 
fingers from contact with it.  This problem is taken care of by some 
small codiment dishes (about 2" dia - 50mm).

I do use a Madel stainless steel squeegee: 
http://www.ntscope.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Return_Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MTC&Category_Code=TAM&Product_Code=SQG-15

That sqeegee is the only "high-tech" equipment used in the entire 
process.  :-)


Regards,

TomW



-- 
Tom Walsh - WN3L - Embedded Systems Consultant
http://openhardware.net, http://cyberiansoftware.com
"Windows? No thanks, I have work to do..."
----------------------------------------------------

>>>An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller
>>>series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a
>>>suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and putting
>>>in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it
>>>has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)


The other thing to look at is the heat distribution in the oven, it might give 
you a surprise...

Place a sheet of printer paper in the oven similar to your larger PCB panels and 
do a bake run.  The pattern on the paper will give an indication of the effect 
of the elements.

Generally the area around the edges will be pretty cold and the middle a bit 
uneven due to the lag in heating the sidewalls & generally losses to ambient.

Attach some alfoil ( shiny side inwards ) to the edges of the oven rack so that 
there is a bit of a gap ( 5mm or so ) between the alfoil & the side walls. Do 
this at the front as well leaving a portion as a window.

  Cook another sheet of paper & you will be surprised at the much more even 
heating pattern due to the decreased losses & the additional reflection from the 
sidewalls.

Sunbeam have a AUD$150 oven with convection which gives reasonable results, 
alternatively their AUD$60 fanless unit doesn't do too bad either. We used to 
use an ABB multi-step PID controller that had ramp/soak time cycles attached to 
a thermocouple fitted to a strip of PCB left permanently in the oven however 
since then we have moved to a commercial SMD oven.

Cheers

Don

Don Ingram wrote:

>
> >>>An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller
> >>>series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a
> >>>suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and 
> putting
> >>>in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it
> >>>has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)
>
>
> The other thing to look at is the heat distribution in the oven, it 
> might give
> you a surprise...
>
> Place a sheet of printer paper in the oven similar to your larger PCB 
> panels and
> do a bake run.  The pattern on the paper will give an indication of 
> the effect
> of the elements.
>
> Generally the area around the edges will be pretty cold and the middle 
> a bit
> uneven due to the lag in heating the sidewalls & generally losses to 
> ambient.
>
> Attach some alfoil ( shiny side inwards ) to the edges of the oven 
> rack so that
> there is a bit of a gap ( 5mm or so ) between the alfoil & the side 
> walls. Do
> this at the front as well leaving a portion as a window.
>
>   Cook another sheet of paper & you will be surprised at the much more 
> even
> heating pattern due to the decreased losses & the additional 
> reflection from the
> sidewalls.
>
> Sunbeam have a AUD$150 oven with convection which gives reasonable 
> results,
> alternatively their AUD$60 fanless unit doesn't do too bad either. We 
> used to
> use an ABB multi-step PID controller that had ramp/soak time cycles 
> attached to
> a thermocouple fitted to a strip of PCB left permanently in the oven 
> however
> since then we have moved to a commercial SMD oven.
>
> Cheers
>
> Don

Thanks Don,

what do commercial ovens use? IR Quartz elements?

My though was to remove the standard hearing elements in a standard oven 
and replace it with my own IR Quarts elements evenly space at the top to 
get a more even heat distribution and a faster ramp up. Not certain if a 
fan would be needed in a setup like this.

/Ake

-- 
 ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavagen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 0533 146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      
Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leon Heller wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
> To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 4:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148
>
>
> > Tom Walsh wrote:
> >
> >> Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:
> >>
> >> >I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste. 
> Where do
> >> >people buy theese?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> I also use these:
> >>
> >> http://www.zeph.com/pencil.html
> >> http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
> >> http://www.zeph.com/zt5_dir.htm
> >>
> >> It is nice to use the pnuematic paste applicator, it is great for
> >> rework.  Your hands can get very tired (not fooling you), trying to
> >> force that paste out a tiny needle!
> >>
> >> For building the board, a paste stencil + toaster oven is 
> definately the
> >> way to go!
> >>
> >>
> >> TomW
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >
> > Tom thanks!
> >
> > A dispenser would be good to have.
> >
> > I use a pre-heater today
> > 
> (http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm) 
> <http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm%29>
> > and it works fine for small cards following a temperature profile
> > manually.
> >
> > An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller
> > series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a
> > suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and putting
> > in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it
> > has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)
>
> The Jan 2006 issue of Elektor has a design for temperature controlled
> toaster oven. I bought one before Xmas from Argos for just under 20 
> GBP, it
> has two quartz elements on top and two underneath.
>
> Leon
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its almost impossible to get small ovens here in Sweden. Can't 
understand why!? And certainly not for 20 GBP....

/Ake

-- 
 ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavagen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 0533 146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      
Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148


> Leon Heller wrote:
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ake Hedman, eurosource" <akhe@...>
>> To: <lpc2000@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 4:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [lpc2000] Soldering LPC2148
>>
>>
>> > Tom Walsh wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ake Hedman, eurosource wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I have been looking for a source for syringes for solder paste.
>> Where do
>> >> >people buy theese?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> I also use these:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.zeph.com/pencil.html
>> >> http://www.zeph.com/zephpaste.htm
>> >> http://www.zeph.com/zt5_dir.htm
>> >>
>> >> It is nice to use the pnuematic paste applicator, it is great for
>> >> rework.  Your hands can get very tired (not fooling you), trying to
>> >> force that paste out a tiny needle!
>> >>
>> >> For building the board, a paste stencil + toaster oven is
>> definately the
>> >> way to go!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> TomW
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >
>> > Tom thanks!
>> >
>> > A dispenser would be good to have.
>> >
>> > I use a pre-heater today
>> >
>> (http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm)
>> <http://www.aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_853a_quarz_infrared_preheater_smd_rework_repair_desoldering.htm%29>
>> > and it works fine for small cards following a temperature profile
>> > manually.
>> >
>> > An oven would be nice to have though for larger boards and smaller
>> > series. I have tried to find one with a fan in Sweden but not found a
>> > suitable one yet. Instead I am thinking about rebuilding one and 
>> > putting
>> > in quarts IR elements and control logic to get faster ramp up then it
>> > has standard. As always time is my enemy... ;-)
>>
>> The Jan 2006 issue of Elektor has a design for temperature controlled
>> toaster oven. I bought one before Xmas from Argos for just under 20
>> GBP, it
>> has two quartz elements on top and two underneath.
>>
>> Leon
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Its almost impossible to get small ovens here in Sweden. Can't
> understand why!? And certainly not for 20 GBP....

Amazon sells them for about the same price:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002HDMPG/qid=1136283104/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-3374447-4278210

You might be able to get one from them.

The Elektor article recommends a much more exensive higher power oven, as it 
will heat up much quicker (important for the required temperature profile) 
but I'll see how I get on with the cheap one.

Leon

Leon Heller wrote:

>
> >
> > Its almost impossible to get small ovens here in Sweden. Can't
> > understand why!? And certainly not for 20 GBP....
>
> Amazon sells them for about the same price:
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002HDMPG/qid=1136283104/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_10_1/202-3374447-4278210
>
> You might be able to get one from them.
>
> The Elektor article recommends a much more exensive higher power oven, 
> as it
> will heat up much quicker (important for the required temperature 
> profile)
> but I'll see how I get on with the cheap one.
>
> Leon


My usual luck. They don't ship to Sweden. Thanks anyway. Let us know 
what you find out when you get around to test your oven..

/Ake

-- 
 ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavagen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 0533 146
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se      
Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org