MOTM

Hi all!

I realize this has been covered in the past, but I wanted some 
subjective input on studio monitors.  I had been cosidering a pair of 
large JBL's (4311's or L55's)to ensure solid bottom end-especially 
when listening to my MOTM!  While saving for the big speakers, I 
refurbished an old pair of AR's with new drivers and crossovers.  I'm 
very pleased with the results and am now considering going with a 
decent subwoofer/amplifier/active crossover.  Before I do, what are 
the pros and cons that the group would share?  Even though the ear 
can't detect direction much below 400Hz, is there a perceived imaging 
problem when you mix (or just listen to your new groovy patch)?  Am I 
just too 70's?  What?

Chub

ps-and why are these hip huggers so tight?

What are you using the monitors for? 

If you're looking for pleasing reproduction of the sound, you may be 
happier with home speakers than monitors. Good studio monitors are 
designed to be accurate, so they don't hype the bass or treble. They 
also tend to be a lot more expensive than good sounding speakers.

On the other hand, if you're doing mixing or mastering, then the 
monitors are the way to go. In that case, you might want to consider 
some nearfield monitors. They can provide flat and accurate response. 
Their main limitation is that they aren't designed to generate the 
volume necessary for larger spaces. 

A nice set of nearfields to consider are either Mackie 824's or 624's.



--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "osthelder <osthelder@n...>" 
<osthelder@n...> wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> I realize this has been covered in the past, but I wanted some 
> subjective input on studio monitors.  I had been cosidering a pair 
of 
> large JBL's (4311's or L55's)to ensure solid bottom end-especially 
> when listening to my MOTM!  While saving for the big speakers, I 
> refurbished an old pair of AR's with new drivers and crossovers.  
I'm 
> very pleased with the results and am now considering going with a 
> decent subwoofer/amplifier/active crossover.  Before I do, what are 
> the pros and cons that the group would share?  Even though the ear 
> can't detect direction much below 400Hz, is there a perceived 
imaging 
> problem when you mix (or just listen to your new groovy patch)?  Am 
I 

> just too 70's?  What?
> 
> Chub
> 
> ps-and why are these hip huggers so tight?

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "elle_webb <elle_webb@h...>"
<elle_webb@h...> wrote:
> What are you using the monitors for? 

Good question!  These will have to perform as mid-field or soffit
monitors.  Near fields, I've got.  Actually, I'd be comfortable mixing
on the redone AR's in nearfield, but the bass of ANY monitor leaves
much to be desired (like the last 2 octaves or better of audio
frequencies).    Has anyone got experience wwith a subwoofer in their
studio for capturing the low end of their synth?

----- Original Message -----

From: <osthelder@...>
Good question!  These will have to perform as mid-field or soffit
monitors.  Near fields, I've got.  Actually, I'd be comfortable mixing
on the redone AR's in nearfield, but the bass of ANY monitor leaves
much to be desired (like the last 2 octaves or better of audio
frequencies).    Has anyone got experience wwith a subwoofer in their
studio for capturing the low end of their synth?

--LH--
OK, I'll speak up here since I think that synth playing speakers and studio
monitors for mixing and critical listening are two different animals.

For critical monitoring and mixing, I have a set of JBL4312s.  I like them
as their bass frequencies seem quite flat well into the normal low range.
But, they certainly don't reach out and grab you as I sometimes like to do
when just sitting and playing my synths.  Since most of my playing years
have been performance oriented, I am accustomed to feeling the vibrations of
music as much as the hearing experience (that is possibly somewhat damaged
by the experience.).

For playing music in the studio, I use performance stage speakers. I have 2
cabinets with 4 10" speakers each, one 18" JBL sub, and 2 horn arrays for
highs.

I am not fond of how passive crossovers perform in the very low end.  They
are power hungry monsters that rob the system of power.  So, I chose active
crossovers prior to amplification when crossing between the sub and the
midrange (or in my case nearly full range) speakers. I like that the
crossover point can be tuned to find that best match between the cabinets
one uses. Of course this means a separate amp for the subwoofer. But, any
ripples in power supply from big bass swings don't get imposed on my
midrange frequencies.  I am OK with passive crossovers in the tweeter /
upper midrange area.  But, I really prefer active crossovers completely.

I use a pair of 300 watt RMS amps.  One I run in mono mode for the
subwoofer.  And, I use a regular JBL 400 watt rated bass guitar speaker
cabinet, not a consumer sub woofer cabinet.  The cabinet has the volume it
needs and is constructed of 1 1/2" think sidewalls so as not to contribute
rattle to the sound. The second amp runs in stereo for the mids and upper
packs.  But, in reality, my 10s are designed to be "full range" speakers, so
my upper crossover point is pretty high.  I don't like the sound of a horn
being honkey in the upper end of a midrange.  I tuned by subwoofer crossover
point by ear.  With one of the two amps off, I twiddled the frequency until
I started noticing roll off for that speakers response (low for the 10s and
high for the 18 of course), then reversed.  I noted those points were I
started noticing roll off and split the difference for crossover frequency.
I am at about 250 Hz.

This is what works for me.  However, those of you who are apartment dwellers
or have close neighbors should just hit delete. :)  I like that I can rip
out a big old synth sound with plenty of bass without worrying about damage
to my expensive studio monitors. Oh that reminds me,... I need to get back
to that MOTM-490.

So the short answer for great synth bass is separate bass cabinet, separate
amp, active crossover in my opinion

Stooge Larry

Yowza!!!

Geez Larry, I'd be comfortable with just the 4312's!  Your point is
well taken, however-passive crossovers at the low end are a problem. 
In fact, I felt it was imperative to have a single driver for my
theremin (JBL D-150, 15" in a full-size phase-inversion cab) to avoid
crossover and phase distortion.  

Crossover distortion is not as big a problem with a synth signal.  I
can get away with a smaller amp (150 watt/side)for the mid/treble
system and I think that a subwoofer/400 watt amp/active crossover of
reasonable size would give me the bass I need for listening to the
synth.  I could use the two-way AR's as satellites and also put them
into service as nearfields.   I think Paul is using the Event 20/20
system with the subwoofer, as are others in the group.  How is this
arrangement working out in the typical studio?

Chub-this close to buying the big JBL's...

I've got the Mackie HR824's and highly recommend them for electronic music applications.  I do have some smaller passive monitors for checking mixes but the active HR824's are my main reference monitors for creating sounds.

Ivan


In a message dated 1/27/2003 5:48:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, "elle_webb <elle_webb@...>" <elle_webb@...> writes:

>
>A nice set of nearfields to consider are either Mackie 824's or 624's.
>
>

I own a pair of 824 and can vouch for their dead-on accuracy and the 
resulting fabulous mixes.  ANd I love the sound og f the MOTM naked 
through them...if it sounds good on this pair, it'll sound good on 
any pair.

Mike

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "elle_webb <elle_webb@h...>" 
<elle_webb@h...> wrote:
> What are you using the monitors for? 
> 
> If you're looking for pleasing reproduction of the sound, you may 
be 
> happier with home speakers than monitors. Good studio monitors are 
> designed to be accurate, so they don't hype the bass or treble. 
They 
> also tend to be a lot more expensive than good sounding speakers.
> 
> On the other hand, if you're doing mixing or mastering, then the 
> monitors are the way to go. In that case, you might want to 
consider 
> some nearfield monitors. They can provide flat and accurate 
response. 
> Their main limitation is that they aren't designed to generate the 
> volume necessary for larger spaces. 
> 
> A nice set of nearfields to consider are either Mackie 824's or 
624's.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In motm@yahoogroups.com, "osthelder <osthelder@n...>" 
> <osthelder@n...> wrote:
> > Hi all!
> > 
> > I realize this has been covered in the past, but I wanted some 
> > subjective input on studio monitors.  I had been cosidering a 
pair 
> of 
> > large JBL's (4311's or L55's)to ensure solid bottom end-
especially 
> > when listening to my MOTM!  While saving for the big speakers, I 
> > refurbished an old pair of AR's with new drivers and 
crossovers.  
> I'm 
> > very pleased with the results and am now considering going with 
a 
> > decent subwoofer/amplifier/active crossover.  Before I do, what 
are 
> > the pros and cons that the group would share?  Even though the 
ear 
> > can't detect direction much below 400Hz, is there a perceived 
> imaging 
> > problem when you mix (or just listen to your new groovy patch)?  
Am 

> I 
> > just too 70's?  What?
> > 
> > Chub
> > 
> > ps-and why are these hip huggers so tight?

The current issue of Electronic Musician has a mid-priced NF shoot out!
Perfect timing to address this question...

> through them...if it sounds good on this pair, it'll sound good on
> any pair.

I say the same thing about my $5 MSRP computer speakers from Rat Shack --
the kind that terminate in a stereo mini. I like to switch between several
*different* speakers for variety's sake. And, if a mix sounds good on the
Rat Shack's then truly, it sounds good on any pair!  ;-)

best,
- Scott
____________
http://www.red-noise.com
http://www.strawberryplanet.org

I use Genelecs in the stuido for monitoring.  However, flat as they 
are, they are missing the entire bottom octave to octave and a 
half.  To fill in the missing bottom I use a Sunfire subwoofer.  
This is the best sounding sub I have ever heard.  It even sounds 
better than my Velodyne in my home theater.  Usually I mix with the 
sub dialed in , but I have calibrated my system so that the sub with 
the Genelecs is flat clear down to subaudio.  Many of my clients 
argue that they want the sub turned up, but this is not a good idea 
for mixing.  I always listen to the mix without the sub as well.  
For playing around with the MOTM I have a pair of Mackie 824s which 
are great sounding as well, but not quite as good as the Genelecs. 
I have been considering adding a sub for the MOTM as well.
You won't realize how much you've missed no matter how good your 
speakers until you add a sub. 
I would heartily endorse the Sunfire, but the Mackie subs are quite 
good as well and certainly more suited towards playing live if that 
is what you are after.

> A nice set of nearfields to consider are either
> Mackie 824's or 624's.

I say go with the Mackie 824s.  My old studiomate and
I used to jam to them all of the time after sessions
because they weren't hard on your ears and sounded
great!

He is now living and working with Thunderpuss (Chris
Cox and Barry Harris).  And he is sharing studio space
and working with Georgio Moroder.

So you've got 3 of the greatest dance producers ever
using them.  They have great bottom end.  They have a
huge sweet spot.  Cheaper than Genelecs.  Made by an
American company with a great reputation.  And we
never blew a speaker (we used to loose a Tannoy once
or twice a year).

Skip the 624s if you really want to hear your MOTM.

Don't they have a Mackie sub out now too????

--Shemp

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I don't mind helping out fellow MOTMers at all.
I run my Genelecs full-range.  I run a seperate volume control on my 
console to the Sunfire with the crossover set at about 80 or 90 Hz.  
I have the Sunfire calibrated with the Genelecs so if I set the two 
volume controls at the same position the levels are matched.  I keep 
the Sunfire underneath my console, some of my clients never even 
realize its there.  
There are absolutely no phasing problems and no loss of imaging 
whatsoever.  I cannot often even tell whether the sound is coming 
from the Sunfire or the Genelecs once I get into the range of the 
crossover frequency.  
The biggest drawback is that if the sub is up too high, which is 
what my clients seem to want because they like the low end, then the 
bottom tends to end up to low in the mix.  This is why I like to 
keep the sub level matched to the Genelecs, and always check the mix 
without the sub as well.
The Sunfire is made by Bob Carver.  It can deliver 2700 Watts on 
peaks due to the energy storing characteristics of the built in 
power amps supply.
I'm sure I've never heard it anywhere near that!  I value my hearing.