MOTM

I asked before on AH, but didn't get a concrete answer:

I'm thinking of getting an MPC4000, for midi sequencing of 
course, but mainly to be able to make samples of my MOTM 
synth and use these to build a song.  (I hate computers for 
that kind of creative stuff.)

I know the 4k has a bad reputation, but that's not what I'm 
asking about here (working on that). What I'd like to know 
is if the sound quality of the 4k at 24bit/96k is good 
enough to capture the beautiful analog quality of my synth. 

I assume that 96k will be good enough to deal with most of 
the aliasing problems, but is the AD/DA good enough? 
Transparent? No colouring? That kind of stuff.

Did anybody ever hear the machine? 

Thanks,
Robert

I think the suggestion to use a front-end A/D for the
MPC is dead-on. I, personally, do not run the MOTM
direct into the A/D, but that is me. It is easier to
run it thru the desk (a mixer or if you don't have
one, a preamp). 

Some folks I've worked with insist on a tube front-end
(Manley) as they insist an analog synth direct to disk
or direct-in is as stupid as running any line-level
instrument direct. 

I always thought the virtue of the MPC was the *tight*
MIDI timing for sequencing. No software sequencer can
touch it. That, and the obvious great tool for
songwriting, pre-prod, et.c

Back in the day, I used to do what you describe...
everything analog pumped thru an Akai Sampler before
being sent to tape. Definitely speeds up the process!


--- Robert van der Kamp <robnet@...> wrote:
> I asked before on AH, but didn't get a concrete
> answer:
> 
> I'm thinking of getting an MPC4000, for midi
> sequencing of 
> course, but mainly to be able to make samples of my
> MOTM 
> synth and use these to build a song.  (I hate
> computers for 
> that kind of creative stuff.)
> 
> I know the 4k has a bad reputation, but that's not
> what I'm 
> asking about here (working on that). What I'd like
> to know 
> is if the sound quality of the 4k at 24bit/96k is
> good 
> enough to capture the beautiful analog quality of my
> synth. 
> 
> I assume that 96k will be good enough to deal with
> most of 
> the aliasing problems, but is the AD/DA good enough?
> 
> Transparent? No colouring? That kind of stuff.
> 
> Did anybody ever hear the machine? 
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert
> 
> 

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--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, Jim Black <black_man_music@y...> wrote:
> Some folks I've worked with insist on a tube front-end
> (Manley) as they insist an analog synth direct to disk
> or direct-in is as stupid as running any line-level
> instrument direct. 

Bah. In most cases, yes. Most synths, from old stuff on up to today's crap 
have quite wimpy output stages. For most stuff, a DI or line driver makes a 
huge difference. However, the chip usually used as an output buffer in the 
MOTM (the OP275), is much better at driving a wire than what most synths 
are using. 

Of course, if you have a long cable run it's a good idea to balance your 
output, but that's a different issue.

That said, I still almost always use the DI input on a Manley mic pre too. 
Chee!!

Max

On Sunday 08 February 2004 04:02, Jim Black wrote:
> I think the suggestion to use a front-end A/D for the
> MPC is dead-on. I, personally, do not run the MOTM
> direct into the A/D, but that is me. It is easier to
> run it thru the desk (a mixer or if you don't have
> one, a preamp).

Okay, so I seems I need to find an Apogee A/D and use it all 
the time. 

>
> Some folks I've worked with insist on a tube front-end
> (Manley) as they insist an analog synth direct to disk
> or direct-in is as stupid as running any line-level
> instrument direct.

Whoa! This is a surprise for me.
Are you saying that my mixer isn't enough to prep an anlog 
instrument for recording on digital media?

Or suppose I would get that front end AD, would it be unwise 
according to your sources to connect the MOTM (or other 
analog synth's) output directly to the AD?

I normally work with a mixer, and redirect the signal I want 
to sample to one of the mixer's output busses, which are 
connected to my samplers. Will that do?


> Back in the day, I used to do what you describe...
> everything analog pumped thru an Akai Sampler before
> being sent to tape. Definitely speeds up the process!

This is what works best for me. I get to play with phrases 
of recorded instruments and trigger them like you would 
trigger drums. And I don't have to use a computer for 
that. :)

- Robert

> I think the suggestion to use a front-end A/D for the
> MPC is dead-on. I, personally, do not run the MOTM
> direct into the A/D, but that is me. It is easier to
> run it thru the desk (a mixer or if you don't have
> one, a preamp).

Why not just run it straight into the MPC?

The MPC has a level control to set the gain right, so it has an inbuilt preamp stage.


>  Some folks I've worked with insist on a tube front-end
>  (Manley) as they insist an analog synth direct to disk
>  or direct-in is as stupid as running any line-level
>  instrument direct.

Why is it stupid? Doesn't it depend on how the recording device handles gain, or doesn't in some cases?


> Whoa! This is a surprise for me.
> Are you saying that my mixer isn't enough to prep an anlog 
> instrument for recording on digital media?

You are worried about sound quality and needing 96KHz/24bit, but you are going to run the signal through a mixer anyway?


> Or suppose I would get that front end AD, would it be unwise 
> according to your sources to connect the MOTM (or other 
> analog synth's) output directly to the AD?

If the AD only has balanced +4 line inputs, but it depends on what you are plugging into and how it handles different level signals.


> I normally work with a mixer, and redirect the signal I want 
> to sample to one of the mixer's output busses, which are 
> connected to my samplers. Will that do?

Yes, but why not avoid the mixer, buses, etc., and just plug straight into the MPC?


> Back in the day, I used to do what you describe...
> everything analog pumped thru an Akai Sampler before
> being sent to tape. Definitely speeds up the process!

Why?


> This is what works best for me. I get to play with phrases 
> of recorded instruments and trigger them like you would 
> trigger drums. And I don't have to use a computer for 
> that. :)


Simon
Canberra
AUSTRALIA

Gang. 

The instrument input on a high-end pre-amplifier very often improves the 
sound of a synth because it presents a significantly higher input impendence. 
It's not really about the gain.

Something like the line-in on a Mackie has an input impedence of 10k or so, 
which is adequete for most line level signals like MOTM, which are usually 1k. 
However, the input impedence on a nice pre-amp's DI input can be 2 or 3 
orders of magnitude higher than the Mackie. This makes it easier for a synth 
with a less than beefy output to drive the wire. Audibly, it results in a crisper 
high-end and tighter bass.

But I re-iterate that the output buffer on the 190 vca or the 820 mixer does 
pretty good even with a line input with a 10k impendence or so. Going 
through a DI just makes it that much better. We're talking about gear with input 
transformers that cost $150 a pop, and often discrete transistor or even tube 
output buffers.

I have no idea what kind of input is on the MPC these days, but the old ones 
were a sort of "universal" pre-amp with a wide ranging gain control. These 
kinds of amplifiers tend to be "ok" but not really stellar on any kind of source.

Using an outboard pre-amp and converters and making a digital connection 
to the MPC will allow you to be more choosy with the kind of coloration you're 
applying to all of your samples on the way into the box. But now we're getting 
into like... which ward do you want to stay in? Blue or white pajamas?

I hope that helps.

Max

--- In motm@yahoogroups.com, simon@a... wrote:
> >  Some folks I've worked with insist on a tube front-end
> >  (Manley) as they insist an analog synth direct to disk
> >  or direct-in is as stupid as running any line-level
> >  instrument direct.
> 
> Why is it stupid? Doesn't it depend on how the recording device handles 
gain, or doesn't in some cases?
> 
> 
> > Whoa! This is a surprise for me.
> > Are you saying that my mixer isn't enough to prep an anlog 
> > instrument for recording on digital media?
> 
> You are worried about sound quality and needing 96KHz/24bit, but you are 
going to run the signal through a mixer anyway?

--- simon@... wrote:
> Why not just run it straight into the MPC?

Oh, absolutely! As others have posted... gain is not
an issue with our MOTM. At issue is the A/D conversion
of the MPC. Is it of the level of an Apogee, Mytek,
etc.? I dunno... that's ur call. I know folks using
MPC-60s!

> The MPC has a level control to set the gain right,
> so it has an inbuilt preamp stage.

Yup... again, quality of a Manley... probably not, but
we all don't have Manley's in our racks! i don't know
the impedence of the MPC - it may need a DI.
 

> 
> Why is it stupid? Doesn't it depend on how the
> recording device handles gain, or doesn't in some
> cases?

Gain and impedence. I think the relevance is that
folks should think of synthesizers like any other
line-level instrument. You see... alot of engineers to
this day are of the "direct into the board" when it
comes to synth's. If you have 6-8 tracks of guitars -
it probably doesn't matter, u ain't gonna hear it. If
your more of an "electronic" act... well...
 
> 
> > I normally work with a mixer, and redirect the
> signal I want 
> > to sample to one of the mixer's output busses,
> which are 
> > connected to my samplers. Will that do?


Of course! Not as clean/direct as the DI/Preamp/EQ
signal chain. 

YMMV.

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Guys, would this Apogee preamp/ADC unit do the job? It has 
both a preamp and AD built it, but I don't know if the 
specs of the preamp are good enough to deal with delicate 
analog signals, as you described it. The specs say the 
impedance is 10k, which is not spectacular, right?

http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/minime.php

- Robert

A buddy of mine has one of these and really likes it.  He also uses it 
as his clock in a MOTU system.  Made a huge improvement.

- chris

On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:34 AM, Robert van der Kamp wrote:

> Guys, would this Apogee preamp/ADC unit do the job? It has
>  both a preamp and AD built it, but I don't know if the
>  specs of the preamp are good enough to deal with delicate
>  analog signals, as you described it. The specs say the
>  impedance is 10k, which is not spectacular, right?
>
> http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/minime.php
>
>  - Robert
>
>
>
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