MOTM

With all that blank panel space, I'm waiting for someone to suggest putting
a couple of 8-color LEDs over there...  <bg>

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	David Bivins [mailto:dbivins@...]
		Sent:	Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:56 PM
		To:	MOTM
		Subject:	[motm] VC AR EG mockup

		Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a
dual VC AR EG.

Well, at the risk of taking away from that simplicity a little bit, I do
have a suggestion for some of that blank space. What if, instead of having
the "+Out" jack, you had just an "Out" jack, and one more knob per AR. This
third knob could be an output level control, a reversible attenuator
(-5~0~+5) to allow you to flip the contour upside down.

I know that this adds a bit to it, and it also flies in the face of the
tradition of having attenuators on the *input* rather than the output. But I
figured I'd "run it up the flagpole... see who salutes," as an ol' prof of
mine used to say all the time.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	David Bivins [mailto:dbivins@...]
		Sent:	Wednesday, February 02, 2000 3:05 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	RE: [motm] VC AR EG mockup

		From: "David Bivins" <dbivins@...>

		Well, I figure it's only a matter of time... If you leave
open real estate,
		the MOTMers follow... ;)

		Remember everyone--it was supposed to be simple! :)

One more silly idea-under (over?) the reversible attenuator (assuming no LED
gets in there first), you could have a switch that reverses the state of the
input gate.

That probably sounds weird and useless to some people, but just entertain
the idea for a second.

Reversing the gate will fire the AR as a note is _released_, which can be
very cool. Why would you want to fire an envelope generator on note-off?
Besides just because you _can_, there are certain physical sound generating
systems that work like this. Off the top of my head, the plectrum of a
harpsichord key plucks the string as the key is depressed, but also brushes
it again on the way back down. This is obviously a 'quieter' event that the
note-on one, but subtlety like that can breathe a lot of life into a sound,
like the little squeaks of fingers-on-strings in an acoustic guitar
performance. You don't focus on them, but you know something is missing when
they're not there.

Ah, I'm getting long-winded again. I'm definitely in the 'keep it simple'
camp, but we're all the type of people that look for possibilities.
Otherwise we wouldn't use modulars.

Audacity is welcomed here, no need to apologise. I just had to whip up my
own proposal, which is attached. Single unit wide, VC AR. It has GATE and
(positive) OUT, 2 unattenuated inputs for separate control over ATTACK and
RELEASE, and an attenuated input for simultaneous control over both ATTACH
and RELEASE. This combined input would sum with the individual CV inputs.

And oh yeah, I HAD to include a gate lamp, because it's criminal not to have
one on an EG, and to match my modded 800s.

Moe

> From: "David Bivins" <dbivins@...>
>
> Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a dual VC AR EG.
>
> I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that only a gate input is necessary--if
> you fed it a trigger, you would get AR, if a gate, ASR. I kept only pos
> outputs to keep the jack field in line with other modules. VC inputs for A
> and R.
>


[This message contained attachments]

This is about 100 times easier to do than a massive VC DADSR super-whiz bang
module.

Everybody like this idea??

Paul S.

Yes, especially if it can be done relatively inexpensively, so that I can
buy 10 of them.

Toward which version do you lean, Paul?

Personally, I like them both, but I do have a desire to get some more 1u
modules into the system for layout flexibility.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
		Sent:	Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:42 PM
		To:	motm@onelist.com
		Subject:	Re: [motm] VC AR EG mockup


		This is about 100 times easier to do than a massive VC DADSR
super-whiz bang
		module.

		Everybody like this idea??

>From: "David Bivins" <dbivins@...>
>
>Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a dual VC AR EG.
>
>I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that only a gate input is necessary--if
>you fed it a trigger, you would get AR, if a gate, ASR. I kept only pos
>outputs to keep the jack field in line with other modules. VC inputs for A
>and R.
>
Cool! Cool! Cool! How about adding a switch to toggle retriggerring? This
would make each AR section like a variable waveshape  tri-wave LFO, when
the R hits zero it retriggers the A? The new PAIA modules have this
feature, and while I haven't actually used them, it seems pretty useful.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@...  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

I'm kinda torn on this one.  I think i still want a VC DASDR ;)  I thought
you were going to have a VC Lag that could perform the function of a VC AR.
If that's the case, why do we want a separate VC AR?

	Eric

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Schreiber [mailto:synth1@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:42 PM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] VC AR EG mockup
> 
> 
> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
> 
> This is about 100 times easier to do than a massive VC DADSR 
> super-whiz bang
> module.
> 
> Everybody like this idea??
> 
> Paul S.
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor 
> ----------------------------
> 
>       Books, music, auctions and more! Amazon.com.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/afamazon1 ">Click Here</a>
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>

Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a dual VC AR EG.

I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that only a gate input is necessary--if
you fed it a trigger, you would get AR, if a gate, ASR. I kept only pos
outputs to keep the jack field in line with other modules. VC inputs for A
and R.



[This message contained attachments]

Well, I figure it's only a matter of time... If you leave open real estate,
the MOTMers follow... ;)

Remember everyone--it was supposed to be simple! :)

David.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tkacs, Ken [mailto:Ken.Tkacs@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 10:51 AM
> To: 'motm@onelist.com'
> Subject: RE: [motm] VC AR EG mockup
>
>
> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
> With all that blank panel space, I'm waiting for someone to
> suggest putting
> a couple of 8-color LEDs over there...  <bg>
>
>
>
> 		-----Original Message-----
> 		From:	David Bivins [mailto:dbivins@...]
> 		Sent:	Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:56 PM
> 		To:	MOTM
> 		Subject:	[motm] VC AR EG mockup
>
> 		Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a
> dual VC AR EG.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>       Books, music, auctions and more! Amazon.com.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/afamazon1 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

At 11:50 AM 02/02/2000 -0800, improv@... (Dave Trenkel) wrote:
>>From: "David Bivins" <dbivins@...>
>>
>>Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a dual VC AR EG.
>>
>Cool! Cool! Cool! How about adding a switch to toggle retriggerring? This
>would make each AR section like a variable waveshape  tri-wave LFO, when
>the R hits zero it retriggers the A? The new PAIA modules have this
>feature, and while I haven't actually used them, it seems pretty useful.

Yes, very useful.  But a common feature from all the other American Modular
Analog Manufacturers (the group consisting of S., P., W. & B. in addition
to MOTM) - I have a pair in my W. system and the upcoming VC ADSR from B.
will have it, too.  What I would prefer might not be possible given the 1U
real estate, but I'd like to see an "end-of-cycle" trigger output that
could either: 

A) plug into the same EG's input to use re-triggering for an LFO effect, or 

B) plug into another EG (possibly chaining several together); then, with
all the CV outputs mixed together, this could create the multi-stage EG
that has been chatted about (I would greatly prefer this to the
microprocessor-based version previously discussed) - you just buy another
one of the AR EG's to get another stage.  I like the multi-stage envelopes
on the Casio CZ-101 as much as I like self-retriggering EG's!

	-Doug
	 ceres@...

Lots cheaper? (Don't need linear, only exp curves so no shape controls)
1U instead of 2?

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

> From: "Crawley, Eric" <esc@...>
>
> I'm kinda torn on this one.  I think i still want a VC DASDR ;)  I thought
> you were going to have a VC Lag that could perform the function
> of a VC AR.
> If that's the case, why do we want a separate VC AR?
>

I like the switch for reversing the gate, but I'd keep the reversible
attenuator off the output for the reason you already stated: uniformity with
the system.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tkacs, Ken [mailto:Ken.Tkacs@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 11:13 AM
> To: 'motm@onelist.com'
> Subject: RE: [motm] VC AR EG mockup
>
>
> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <Ken.Tkacs@...>
>
>
> One more silly idea-under (over?) the reversible attenuator
> (assuming no LED
> gets in there first), you could have a switch that reverses the
> state of the
> input gate.
>
> That probably sounds weird and useless to some people, but just entertain
> the idea for a second.
>
> Reversing the gate will fire the AR as a note is _released_, which can be
> very cool. Why would you want to fire an envelope generator on note-off?
> Besides just because you _can_, there are certain physical sound
> generating
> systems that work like this. Off the top of my head, the plectrum of a
> harpsichord key plucks the string as the key is depressed, but
> also brushes
> it again on the way back down. This is obviously a 'quieter'
> event that the
> note-on one, but subtlety like that can breathe a lot of life
> into a sound,
> like the little squeaks of fingers-on-strings in an acoustic guitar
> performance. You don't focus on them, but you know something is
> missing when
> they're not there.
>
> Ah, I'm getting long-winded again. I'm definitely in the 'keep it simple'
> camp, but we're all the type of people that look for possibilities.
> Otherwise we wouldn't use modulars.
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>       Books, music, auctions and more! Amazon.com.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/afamazon1 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Here's my less-than-informed notion:
What about a DAR EG?  Eliminate the A/R Cv pot, maybe have a -OUT jack as
well as a +OUT.

Is that feasible/sensible etc.?

tomr
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Schreiber <synth1@...>
To: <motm@onelist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [motm] VC AR EG mockup


> From: "Paul Schreiber" <synth1@...>
>
> This is about 100 times easier to do than a massive VC DADSR super-whiz
bang

> module.
>
> Everybody like this idea??
>
> Paul S.
>
>
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>       Books, music, auctions and more! Amazon.com.
> <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/afamazon1 ">Click Here</a>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Without understanding all the options (sorry, you guys are a little fast for
me today; my brain is swamped in job-related work!), I think I like this
option the best.  I'd really like to have some kind of multi-stage EG, and
this is a great way to do it.  I think I would make it an ASR, with the END
trigger occur at the end of the sustain (or perhaps in addition to one at
the end of the decay?), so that you don't have to drop-to-zero to begin the
next (chained) stage.  Although... mixing the signals might prove tricky,
due to the addition of control from the simultaneous decay and attack.
Might need a *real* quick decay...?

--PBr, confused with all the options...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Doug Pearson [SMTP:ceres@...]
> Sent:	Wednesday, February 02, 2000 12:14 PM
> To:	motm@onelist.com
> Subject:	Re: [motm] VC AR EG mockup
> 
> At 11:50 AM 02/02/2000 -0800, improv@... (Dave Trenkel) wrote:
> >>From: "David Bivins" <dbivins@...>
> >>
> >>Pardon my audacity, but what do you think of this? It's a dual VC AR EG.
> >>
> >Cool! Cool! Cool! How about adding a switch to toggle retriggerring? This
> >would make each AR section like a variable waveshape  tri-wave LFO, when
> >the R hits zero it retriggers the A? The new PAIA modules have this
> >feature, and while I haven't actually used them, it seems pretty useful.
> 
> Yes, very useful.  But a common feature from all the other American
> Modular
> Analog Manufacturers (the group consisting of S., P., W. & B. in addition
> to MOTM) - I have a pair in my W. system and the upcoming VC ADSR from B.
> will have it, too.  What I would prefer might not be possible given the 1U
> real estate, but I'd like to see an "end-of-cycle" trigger output that
> could either: 
> 
> A) plug into the same EG's input to use re-triggering for an LFO effect,
> or 
> 
> B) plug into another EG (possibly chaining several together); then, with
> all the CV outputs mixed together, this could create the multi-stage EG
> that has been chatted about (I would greatly prefer this to the
> microprocessor-based version previously discussed) - you just buy another
> one of the AR EG's to get another stage.  I like the multi-stage envelopes
> on the Casio CZ-101 as much as I like self-retriggering EG's!
> 
> 	-Doug
> 	 ceres@... 
>

In a message dated 00-02-02 14:42:50 EST, you write:

<< Everybody like this idea??
  >>


paul,
yes, i think it is well worth considering!
best,
dave
(waiting anxiously for my 410 triple vcf!!! :^)  )

In a message dated 00-02-02 15:10:53 EST, you write:

<< but I'd like to see an "end-of-cycle" trigger output that
 could either: 
 
 A) plug into the same EG's input to use re-triggering for an LFO effect, or 
 
 B) plug into another EG (possibly chaining several together); then, with >>


doug,
my old s**** modular had this feature on the "dsg" modules and it is very, 
very useful! for the "real estate" cost of one jack, it should be (IMHO) a 
mandatory inclusion.
best,
dave

Wow !!  How great to see all these super ideas floating around from so many
different MOTMers.  I have heard a lot of things I like.  So, I will lend
some of my opinions to a few of them.

1. I love the idea of a inverting input for the gate so that thing can
trigger on note release.  However, in the spirit of modular, I suggest that
I reversing attenuator could be inserted when that function was desired.

2.  Someone said (I think) a reversing on the output was not probably
useful.  I disagree (or misunderstood).  I think reverse envelopes can be
cool on filters.  However, again, this could be done with that reversing
attenuator Paul is promising. 

So, I would rather see EG real estate used for functions other than
providing inverting.

3.  I echo the comment of someone who liked the CZ-101 envelopes.  I don't
know technically how this is worked on an analog knob EG.  But, I can see
how the controls "might" be.  Just completely get away from  the concept of
AR, ASDR, DASR, etc, etc.  Each 1U module would have 4 knobs.  Time 1,
Level 1, Time 2, Level 2.  Any time or level could be set for each stage of
the envelope.  You determine by knob settings whether the first stage is
attack or delay.  Example:  Time 4 level 10 is a medium speed attack.  Time
4 level 0 is a time delay and maybe stage 2 becomes the attack.  If you
want a simple AR, use one, turn the knobs.  The key to this approach would
be some kind of "end" output as suggested by others that could be used to
trigger another "2-stage EG."

So, if you want 2 stage, use one.  If you want 8 stages, daisy chain 4 of
them.  Am I crazy, or could this work?

My $.02 = Keep them simple, make 'em low cost (not cheap) so we can have
several.  And, leave the reversing on a separate module.

Just some stoogy comments for thought process ('cause I really don't know
what I am talking about).
Larry (stooge) Hendry

*>>"Just completely get away from  the concept of AR, ASDR,
DASR, etc, etc.  Each 1U module would have 4 knobs.  Time 1, Level 1, Time
2, Level 2.  Any time or level could be set for each stage of the envelope.
You determine by knob settings whether the first stage is attack or delay.
Example:  Time 4 level 10 is a medium speed attack.  Time 4 level 0 is a
time delay and maybe stage 2 becomes the attack.  If you want a simple AR,
use one, turn the knobs.  The key to this approach would
		be some kind of "end" output as suggested by others that
could be used to trigger another "2-stage EG." "*

This reminds me of sort of one-half of a TX-81Z envelope generator. My
thoughts are-it would be cool to have an envelope generator that's
conceptually different from an ADSR, since we already have an ADSR. So the
"Time/Level, Time/Level" idea is cool on those grounds. It's also cool to
make the next MOTM EG voltage-controllable, since that feature hasn't been
implemented yet. In order _not_ to make it a 4u panel, the daisy-chain ideas
being discussed are a nice alternative-keep it simple & inexpensive, and buy
as many as you need and chain them together.

Man, I like so many of the envelope generator ideas that have been thrown
around in the past 24 hours, I don't even know which to back! At some point
when we're all exhausted, we probably ought to narrow the ideas down to four
composites with mock-ups and step back and take a look at them, see who's
most excited about what features. Unfortunately, estimated prices would be
helpful, too, and that is probably hard to estimate accurately.

Paul doesn't enjoy scrunching things.  I do though!

Based on the proportions I can figure, it seems like the LED should go
directly below the A/R VC pot.

--Shemp

> And oh yeah, I HAD to include a gate lamp, because it's criminal
> not to have
> one on an EG, and to match my modded 800s.
> Moe