MOTM

Something makes me think that Paul isn't a big enthusiast of rotary switches.

Call it a hunch!
JB

In a message dated 3/15/2000 8:39:39 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>I went through and sized up the resistors that were required to actually
>change out the VCO course tune pot to an 11 position octave switch
>(actually hitting the 5ths in between).

I went through and sized up the resistors that were required to actually
change out the VCO course tune pot to an 11 position octave switch
(actually hitting the 5ths in between).  I'll see if I can dig that up.  I
have not modified one of mine yet, but I have considering it a couple of
times.  I was going to use the best trimmers I could get and just preset
the switch for octaves and 5ths.  The 12 position was going to short out
part of the resistance in the "fine tune" summing resistor so a "course"
variable adjustment could still be available there.

These are just THOUGHTS, not plans.
"Standard dumb stooge disclaimer applies"

However, once Paul actually makes that highly accurate DC mixer, it would
be easy to mix the incoming 1/volt per octave voltage with one from your
resistor divider.  However, now that I think about it, here is a decent
idea:

Use one of the FM inputs to do your octave switching.  Since they are not
1/v octave, some measurement would need to determine what voltage produced
the octave shift desired with the predetermined FM knob in the 100%
position.  Once the voltages were determined, you could build a simple
voltage divider with trimmers, and a rotary switch to select octaves up or
down and do the whole thing without any modification to the best VCO on the
planet.

In fact, I like this idea.  I am gonna take some measurements myself and
see what gives.

Great idea Nathan.  A simple 1U panel could be made up with up to 4 rotary
switches and 4 output jacks so you could add octave switching anytime you
wanted by just plugging in.  However, I think I would only put about 2 in a
panel and make the trimmers (front panel accessible).  They make very nice
panel mount holders for those 15 turn trimmers that look very nice.  And
trimming necessary could be easily done.

Larry (off to experiment) Hendry


----------

> From: Nathan Hunsicker <nate@...>
> To: MOTM Newsgroup <motm@onelist.com>
> Subject: [motm] Osc Controller
> Date: Wednesday, March 15, 2000 9:20 PM
> 
> From: Nathan Hunsicker <nate@...>
> 
> Does anyone know a simple circuit I could build to drop an input voltage
> in 1 volt steps. What I want to do is build an oscillator controller to
> switch octaves by flipping a series of switches or by turning a rotary
> switch. I'd like to be able to tune all my VCO's the same and then use
> this unit to lower the pitch by octaves, similar to the footage switch
> on a moog 921. Is this possible? -Nate
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PERFORM CPR ON YOUR APR!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!  Get rates as low as 
> 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
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> 
>

In a message dated 00-03-15 23:27:21 EST, you write:

<< Something makes me think that Paul isn't a big enthusiast of rotary 
switches. >>



john,
in his infinite wisdom paul has done something with the motm vco that matches 
my compositional esthetic. the single thing i hate the most about my doepfers 
vco`s are the "range" ( octave) switches. a stable, wide range vco is limited 
by their addition, IMHO. yes, they make conventional pitch / note music 
easier but the whole idea of voltage control is freedom. since what i like to 
do is more "register" based ( hi / med / lo ) droney "dream machine" stuff, 
having a wide available range on the vco`s is desirable. in my shameful past 
as a "serge-ist", i found their vco`s to be acceptably stable and the wide, 
unswitched range, essential !!!
paul, you got this one right, IMHO, on the vco`s ........ 
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 3/16/2000 6:22:36 AM, davevosh@... writes:

<< the single thing i hate the most about my doepfers  vco`s are the "range" 
( octave) switches. a stable, wide range vco is limited  by their addition, 
IMHO. yes, they make conventional pitch / note music easier but the whole 
idea of voltage control is freedom. >>

AGREED!  The octave switching should be on the controller-end, not at the 
VCO.  That way us "alternative controller" guys who don't think along the 
lines of keyboards aren't limited.

Somewhere along the line somebody made a compromise choice and decided to use 
a keyboard to control a synthesizer.  But a synthesizer inherently is not a 
keyboard instrument.  If you keep thinking along the keyboard paradigm you 
end up where MIDI is at, where it is very difficult to continuously play 
"between the keys".  This is very limiting and instead of expanding the 
electronic music universe, attempts to constrain it.

Ok, rant off.

Ivan

I was thinking more along the lines of easy switching of single oscillators
during a stage performance. I didn't want to modify the 300VCO, it's
perfect the way it is, my only problem is having to retune one oscillator
if i want to feed two off the same cv and drop one of them 1 or 2 octaves.
-Nate

> From:
>ivancu@...
>
>
>In a message dated 3/16/2000 6:22:36 AM, davevosh@... writes:
>
>
>
><< the single thing i hate the most about my doepfers  vco`s are the "range"
>
>( octave) switches. a stable, wide range vco is limited  by their addition,
>
>IMHO. yes, they make conventional pitch / note music easier but the whole
>
>idea of voltage control is freedom. >>
>
>
>
>AGREED!  The octave switching should be on the controller-end, not at the
>
>VCO.  That way us "alternative controller" guys who don't think along the
>
>lines of keyboards aren't limited.
>
>
>
>Somewhere along the line somebody made a compromise choice and decided to use
>
>a keyboard to control a synthesizer.  But a synthesizer inherently is not a
>
>keyboard instrument.  If you keep thinking along the keyboard paradigm you
>
>end up where MIDI is at, where it is very difficult to continuously play
>
>"between the keys".  This is very limiting and instead of expanding the
>
>electronic music universe, attempts to constrain it.
>
>
>
>Ok, rant off.
>
>
>
>Ivan
>
>
>
>

I wanted to make a seperate module which could be bypassed if it was not
desired. Something that would go inline between the cv controller and the
osc. -Nate

> From:
>Nathan Hunsicker <nate@...>
>
>
>I was thinking more along the lines of easy switching of single oscillators
>
>during a stage performance. I didn't want to modify the 300VCO, it's
>
>perfect the way it is, my only problem is having to retune one oscillator
>
>if i want to feed two off the same cv and drop one of them 1 or 2 octaves.
>
>-Nate
>
>
>
>> From:
>
>>ivancu@...
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>In a message dated 3/16/2000 6:22:36 AM, davevosh@... writes:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>><< the single thing i hate the most about my doepfers  vco`s are the "range"
>
>>
>
>>( octave) switches. a stable, wide range vco is limited  by their addition,
>
>>
>
>>IMHO. yes, they make conventional pitch / note music easier but the whole
>
>>
>
>>idea of voltage control is freedom. >>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>AGREED!  The octave switching should be on the controller-end, not at the
>
>>
>
>>VCO.  That way us "alternative controller" guys who don't think along the
>
>>
>
>>lines of keyboards aren't limited.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>Somewhere along the line somebody made a compromise choice and decided to use
>
>>
>
>>a keyboard to control a synthesizer.  But a synthesizer inherently is not a
>
>>
>
>>keyboard instrument.  If you keep thinking along the keyboard paradigm you
>
>>
>
>>end up where MIDI is at, where it is very difficult to continuously play
>
>>
>
>>"between the keys".  This is very limiting and instead of expanding the
>
>>
>
>>electronic music universe, attempts to constrain it.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>Ok, rant off.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>Ivan
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I agree with all sides that have spoken out on the "Range Switch" issue. 

The synthesizer is *not* inherently a keyboard instrument, nor should it
even be thought of as being equal tempered, or bound to discreet pitches at
all! It's the most flexible sound shaping device in the history of musical
instruments, and no design-time limitations or pre-conceptions should be
imposed on it, if it can be helped.

However, those looking for an octave or octave/fifths switch are just
looking for another degree of control, and controls are good things. I
certainly wouldn't modify my 300's directly, but I don't see the harm in the
separate module idea. Perhaps a generic bias voltage module with discreet
outputs that can produce the 0.5v steps needed for octave switching.

Actually, I've been 'hankering' for a flexible quantizer module to turn
continuous voltages into very accurate discreet ones (one not limited to 12
notes per octave, something adjustable for accurate microtonality). I wonder
if somehow a quantizer and a range controller for VCOs could be combined.
Haven't thought this through, just tossing in my $0.02.

In a message dated 00-03-16 07:57:09 EST, you write:

<< The octave switching should be on the controller-end,  >>


ivan,
actually as i ponder this, i could see a use for a "retro" module for the 
feature. for me,  probably used for setting a range of modulation for filters 
and vca`s and such as opposed to vco`s. hence if i don`t think of it as 
"octave switching" and do in terms of biasing into a specific range, then it 
makes sense. the advantage of modulars, as the same module can be 
conceptualized both ways. its just a matter of what you like....
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 00-03-16 08:59:44 EST, you write:

<< Something that would go inline between the cv controller and the
  >>


nate,
yes, i agree a separate module would be the right approach.
best,
dave

In a message dated 00-03-16 09:21:23 EST, you write:

<< Perhaps a generic bias voltage module with discreet
 outputs that can produce the 0.5v steps >>



kenn,
agreed! thats what i was trying to think in terms of in my previous post.
best,
dave

In a message dated 00-03-16 09:21:23 EST, you write:

<< accurate microtonality). I wonder
 if somehow a quantizer and a range controller for VCOs could be combined. >>



kenn,
i would think this is possible but tricky to coordinate. wouldn`t you have to 
get an accurate mix of the offset voltage and the quantizer output ? over a 
wide range of notes, that might be very hard to do.  ---  ???? ---
best,
dave
p.s. most of my "microtonal" experience is from some experiments i did with a 
serge tkb used as a manual voltage controller with each of the 16 stages 
being tuned to the correct voltages for each frequency of whatever scale, 17, 
19, etc.. possible with a dvm but works best after everythings been on for a 
while to stabilize. also, only limited ranges of available notes. still, it 
worked!
best,
dave v.

I'm still trying to devise a good method of working with microtonality and
my modular. I've done some work with a Mirage-DSK running a customized
microtonal OS, a Yamaha TX-81Z with my hand-created soundbanks for different
tunings, and an Ensoniq ESQ-M with again banks of 40 sounds where each was
hand-tweaked to give me microtonality. These three instruments have
less-than-stellar tuning resolution for this kind of work, and were a bear
to get to work together, but I was able to experiment a bit with this in the
early 90's.

I figure with a modular, microtonality should be easier, but it still has
its own problems. I'm working toward using a Theremin as a controller, but I
still want some discreet pitches in there. I'm always daydreaming about
other non-keyboard controllers, or at least non-'piano' keyboards. I like
the idea of the S-TKB, but don't have one. I also like the layout of a
keyboard that was designed decades ago by some guy named Solar (sp?) that
had white and black keys alternating-this allowed for not only a generic
keyswitch layout, but one which allowed easy transposition and a greater
pitch span with the hand as compared to a conventional 'piano' keyboard. I
think he patented the idea and was looking for backing to produce acoustic
pianos with it... doesn't seem like it ever got off the ground.

I don't know how tricky it would be to make a quantizer module. As I
understand it, this is a standard feature of the output sections of most
sequencers, though, no? Otherwise they would be a major bitch to tune.
Someone must have figured out how to make one stable. I guess making it
variable and stable does throw a wrench into it, though.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...] 
Sent:	Thursday, 16 March, 2000 11:47 AM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Osc Controller

From: davevosh@...

In a message dated 00-03-16 09:21:23 EST, you write:

<< accurate microtonality). I wonder
 if somehow a quantizer and a range controller for VCOs could be combined.
>>



kenn,
i would think this is possible but tricky to coordinate. wouldn`t you have
to 
get an accurate mix of the offset voltage and the quantizer output ? over a 
wide range of notes, that might be very hard to do.  ---  ???? ---
best,
dave
p.s. most of my "microtonal" experience is from some experiments i did with
a 
serge tkb used as a manual voltage controller with each of the 16 stages 
being tuned to the correct voltages for each frequency of whatever scale,
17, 
19, etc.. possible with a dvm but works best after everythings been on for a

while to stabilize. also, only limited ranges of available notes. still, it 
worked!
best,
dave v.

In a message dated 00-03-16 11:58:15 EST, you write:

<<  As I
 understand it, this is a standard feature of the output sections of most
 sequencers, though, no? Otherwise they would be a major bitch to tune. >>



kenn,
my doepfer sequencer doesn`t have a quantizer built in. yes, "tuning" per se 
can be difficult or time consuming but to have the possibilities available 
for other tunings, etc. is worth the trade off. for those who need it, they 
do also have a separate module quantizer. as a separate module, it is 
available to be applied as a processor to any source of c.v., theremin 
controllers, etc.. again, thats the whole idea, open up the systems and let 
the possibilities multiply.
best,
dave v.

Oh, I would *definitely* want a quantizer to be *defeatable!* But it's nice
to have it there for when you need it.

I'm the first one to wave the flag for weird, sweepy, Theremin-style
electronic music. But the ability to 'find' intervals is desireable. Let's
face it---our VCOs respond to 1v/octave for a reason. (The octave, by any
other name, is a physically meaningful relationship that is found in most
(not all) musical cultures.)

-----Original Message-----
From: davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...]
Sent: Thursday, 16 March, 2000 12:46 PM
To: motm@onelist.com
Subject: Re: [motm] Osc Controller



my doepfer sequencer doesn`t have a quantizer built in. yes, "tuning" per se

can be difficult or time consuming but to have the possibilities available 
for other tunings, etc. is worth the trade off.

My thoughts on a dedicated "octave switch" type controller:

I prefer a module that is generalized such that it can do several things.
For this type of function, I'd use an adjustable voltage quantizer module.
You can input any old dc control voltage, and adjust the output quantization
to perfect octaves to handle your tuning chores. Then you can also use the
module for general purpose quantizing. I'm going to diy one soon based on
the old Polyfusion circuit while we wait for Paul's super duper ROM based
microtuneable quantizer.

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ivancu@... [mailto:ivancu@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 6:57 AM
> To: motm@onelist.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] Osc Controller
>
>
> From: ivancu@...
>
> In a message dated 3/16/2000 6:22:36 AM, davevosh@... writes:
>
> << the single thing i hate the most about my doepfers  vco`s are
> the "range"
> ( octave) switches. a stable, wide range vco is limited  by their
> addition,
> IMHO. yes, they make conventional pitch / note music easier but the whole
> idea of voltage control is freedom. >>
>
> AGREED!  The octave switching should be on the controller-end, not at the
> VCO.  That way us "alternative controller" guys who don't think along the
> lines of keyboards aren't limited.
>
> Somewhere along the line somebody made a compromise choice and
> decided to use
> a keyboard to control a synthesizer.  But a synthesizer
> inherently is not a
> keyboard instrument.  If you keep thinking along the keyboard
> paradigm you
> end up where MIDI is at, where it is very difficult to continuously play
> "between the keys".  This is very limiting and instead of expanding the
> electronic music universe, attempts to constrain it.
>
> Ok, rant off.
>
> Ivan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MAXIMIZE YOUR CARD, MINIMIZE YOUR RATE!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds!  Get rates as low as
> 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/2122/2/_/529958/_/953211409/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Am I understanding corectly that a quantizer would only allow cv voltages
corresponding to the 12 tone scale? If so, wouldn't this make any type of
portamento sound more like running your fingers down a keyboard versus a
nice smooth sound? -Nate

 > From:
>"Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@...>
>
>
>
>
>Oh, I would *definitely* want a quantizer to be *defeatable!* But it's nice
>
>to have it there for when you need it.
>
>
>
>I'm the first one to wave the flag for weird, sweepy, Theremin-style
>
>electronic music. But the ability to 'find' intervals is desireable. Let's
>
>face it---our VCOs respond to 1v/octave for a reason. (The octave, by any
>
>other name, is a physically meaningful relationship that is found in most
>
>(not all) musical cultures.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: davevosh@... [mailto:davevosh@...]
>
>Sent: Thursday, 16 March, 2000 12:46 PM
>
>To: motm@onelist.com
>
>Subject: Re: [motm] Osc Controller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>my doepfer sequencer doesn`t have a quantizer built in. yes, "tuning" per se
>
>
>
>can be difficult or time consuming but to have the possibilities available
>
>for other tunings, etc. is worth the trade off.
>
>
>
>
>
>

A simple one would, yeah. I would definitely want to at least scale the
intervals, if not set them individually (which is apparently difficult for
analog electronics to do without drifting, etc.).

If you put a swept voltage through one and controlled a VCO with it, yes,
you'd get a sound like you describe (assuming it was set to 1/12 volt
steps).

For Theremin players having a hard time finding that pitch, a quantizer is
the answer. Then you could put the VC Lag module AFTER the quantizer to
smooth it a little bit, but still have those solid in-tune pitch plateaus in
there.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Nathan Hunsicker [mailto:nate@...] 
Sent:	Thursday, 16 March, 2000 3:38 PM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	RE: [motm] Osc Controller



Am I understanding corectly that a quantizer would only allow cv voltages
corresponding to the 12 tone scale? If so, wouldn't this make any type of
portamento sound more like running your fingers down a keyboard versus a
nice smooth sound? -Nate

Back to Paul's Idea, how about a module that could produce 4 different
adjustable fixed cv's? As long as the voltages are adjustable you could run
the output into the fm2 jack on the 300 VCO. Setting # 1 could be 0V to
allow the VCO to operate at its normal frequency, settings 2.3 and 4 could
be set by ear to different intervals above the base frequency and then
accessed at the touch of a button. This module would have to be
ultra-stable in order to keep from drifting and what's the use of an
ultra-stable VCO if your cv source is going to drift. -Nate

> From:
>"Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@...>
>
>
>
>
>A simple one would, yeah. I would definitely want to at least scale the
>
>intervals, if not set them individually (which is apparently difficult for
>
>analog electronics to do without drifting, etc.).
>
>
>
>If you put a swept voltage through one and controlled a VCO with it, yes,
>
>you'd get a sound like you describe (assuming it was set to 1/12 volt
>
>steps).
>
>
>
>For Theremin players having a hard time finding that pitch, a quantizer is
>
>the answer. Then you could put the VC Lag module AFTER the quantizer to
>
>smooth it a little bit, but still have those solid in-tune pitch plateaus in
>
>there.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>From:       Nathan Hunsicker [mailto:nate@...]
>
>Sent:      Thursday, 16 March, 2000 3:38 PM
>
>To:      motm@onelist.com
>
>Subject:      RE: [motm] Osc Controller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Am I understanding corectly that a quantizer would only allow cv voltages
>
>corresponding to the 12 tone scale? If so, wouldn't this make any type of
>
>portamento sound more like running your fingers down a keyboard versus a
>
>nice smooth sound? -Nate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

This is exactly what the module was supposed to do. Not surprising, since
Paul proposed it after an identical earlier discussion about octave
switching VCOs <g>!

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

>
>
> From: Nathan Hunsicker <nate@...>
>
> Back to Paul's Idea, how about a module that could produce 4 different
> adjustable fixed cv's? As long as the voltages are adjustable you
> could run
> the output into the fm2 jack on the 300 VCO. Setting # 1 could be 0V to
> allow the VCO to operate at its normal frequency, settings 2.3 and 4 could
> be set by ear to different intervals above the base frequency and then
> accessed at the touch of a button. This module would have to be
> ultra-stable in order to keep from drifting and what's the use of an
> ultra-stable VCO if your cv source is going to drift. -Nate
>
>

Dave Bradley wrote:

Also, how do I search the onelist archives? every time i put in a search
I get 27 or so messages from the last 2 months. -Nate


Dave Bradley wrote:

> From: "Dave Bradley" <daveb@...>
>
> This is exactly what the module was supposed to do. Not surprising,
> since
> Paul proposed it after an identical earlier discussion about octave
> switching VCOs <g>!
>
> Dave Bradley
> Principal Software Engineer
> Engineering Animation, Inc.
> daveb@...
>
> >
> >
> > From: Nathan Hunsicker <nate@...>
> >
> > Back to Paul's Idea, how about a module that could produce 4
> different
> > adjustable fixed cv's? As long as the voltages are adjustable you
> > could run
> > the output into the fm2 jack on the 300 VCO. Setting # 1 could be 0V
> to
> > allow the VCO to operate at its normal frequency, settings 2.3 and 4
> could
> > be set by ear to different intervals above the base frequency and
> then
> > accessed at the touch of a button. This module would have to be
> > ultra-stable in order to keep from drifting and what's the use of an
>
> > ultra-stable VCO if your cv source is going to drift. -Nate
> >
> >
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

In a message dated 00-03-16 13:53:34 EST, you write:

<< I'm the first one to wave the flag for weird, sweepy, Theremin-style
 electronic music >>



kenn,
i guess that makes me second.......
luckily, for me, intervallic relationships are of minor interest so its not a 
real problem. for folks doing "music", i concede the necessity.
best,
dave v.