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Pushing Partials Around

Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-22 by Tkacs, Ken

Really? I find that very strange. I've *always* approached synthesis with
the harmonic spectrum in mind. The waveform is the *result* of the sound's
harmonic content. When you're creating sounds, isn't it better to think in
terms of the harmonic alterations rather than the shape of the wave? When
applying a lowpass filter, for instance, I imagine it as something like a
window-shade closing down on the spectrum, not as rounding off the peaks of
a sharp waveform. The ear hears the spectrum, not the oscilloscope image.

Also, additive synthesis and Fourier analysis predate digital by a pretty
good margin. These were terms that we used to discuss in the old analog days
long before the first digital synthesizers hit the market. While I agree
that additive synthesis is probably easier to implement in digital, I don't
think it's at odds with analog at all. That's why we use more than one VCO!

I agree that waveform manipulation is easier in analog, and I think that the
discussions of waveform shapers, folders, and multipliers can be very
fruitful. But as a generalization, they still only affect the amplitudes of
the existing harmonics (I usually use the term "partials" because it was
beaten into me that the Fundamental is not a harmonic, so when you want to
refer to *all* of the Fourier components, including the fundamental, you
need to use 'partial' rather than 'harmonic.' Although in recent years it
seems that the misuse of the terminology is getting ingrained into the
language, the same way that "font" is used to mean "typeface" when that's
not proper either).

Know what I mean though?  After the fundamental, the harmonics in simple
waveforms are specified as period-times-1/2 (octave, or first harmonic),
times-1/3 (octave-fifth, or second harmonic), times-1/4 (two octaves, or
third harmonic, etc.). You can filter this, waveshape it, and so on but you
still aren't changing these relationships unless you run the signal through
a ring modulator. The fact that these relationships are 'set in stone' while
so many other aspects of the sound are open to us for manipulation ...
*bugs* me :) .

The reason this kinda thing keeps me up at night is because I'm interested
in microtonal music. Our musical scale closely parallels the harmonic series
of simple waveforms like we've been talking about (at least until you get up
in the range where the compromises of equal temperament cause a divergence).
When you look at the unusual scales of other cultures, like the music of the
gamelan, they aren't just playing weird tunings with Western
instruments---their instruments produce tones with harmonics that echo and
fall in line with their scales, just as ours does. We have instruments that
produce "simple waveforms" (please allow me that ridiculous statement) that
work with our equal tempered scale, and they have instruments that have
complex tones and scales to match them.

I find this whole thing very interesting. I'd love to play with those
relationships. Sure, digital's always an option, but I want to do it with
patchcords and knobs! Typing on a keyboard to specify harmonics is for the
birds.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	jwbarlow@... [mailto:jwbarlow@...] 
Sent:	Tuesday, 21 March, 2000 10:40 PM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Modules for Pushing Partials Around

I think viewing waveforms as a composite of harmonics lends itself much more
to digital (through Fourier analysis). It seems that when you view a sound
as a waveform you are more "in tune" with the basic ""philosophy"" of
"analog synthesis." As such, I think a more easily solvable engineering
problem would involve manipulating the waveform in unconventional ways.

RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-22 by Dave Bradley

> From: "Tkacs, Ken" <ken.tkacs@...>
>
> I find this whole thing very interesting. I'd love to play with those
> relationships. Sure, digital's always an option, but I want to do it with
> patchcords and knobs! Typing on a keyboard to specify harmonics is for the
> birds.
>

Let's take this from philosophical to straw man. Ken, since you have thought
about this a lot, suppose you could design a module to do what you are
asking. Leave aside the technology behind the panel, and come up with a
proposed user interface design. What knobs, inputs and outputs would you
specify? What would the module do?

Dave Bradley
Principal Software Engineer
Engineering Animation, Inc.
daveb@...

RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-22 by Tkacs, Ken

I will have to light some incense and mediate on this. I mean, without ever
hearing a ring modulator, it would be a hard thing to dream up out of the
blue.

I'll give this some deep thought and see what I come up with.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Dave Bradley [mailto:daveb@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 March, 2000 1:15 PM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

Leave aside the technology behind the panel, and come up with a
proposed user interface design. What knobs, inputs and outputs would you
specify? What would the module do?

RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-22 by Tkacs, Ken

I will have to light some incense and mediate on this. I mean, without ever
hearing a ring modulator, it would be a hard thing to dream up out of the
blue.

I'll give this some deep thought and see what I come up with.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Dave Bradley [mailto:daveb@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 March, 2000 1:15 PM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

Leave aside the technology behind the panel, and come up with a
proposed user interface design. What knobs, inputs and outputs would you
specify? What would the module do?

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-22 by Tony Allgood

>I usually use the term "partials" because it was beaten into me that
the Fundamental is not a harmonic...

Hi all,

In the UK the fundamental is the first harmonic, the second harmonic is
twice the fundamental and so on. We use the term overtone to describe
the higher orders. That is, the first overtone is the second harmonic,
the second overtone is the third harmonic, etc. Thus n in Fourier
equations, and mechanical resonance, is indeed the harmonic number.

But we also have different terms for 'note' and 'tone', and I'll be
buggered if I can remenber which is which :-)

Regards,

Tony Allgood  Penrith, Cumbria, UK

http://www.techrepairs.freeserve.co.uk/projects.htm

RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-22 by Tkacs, Ken

Maybe that explains the confusion in terminology, why different sources
insist on different uses for the terms.

Thanks!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Tony Allgood [mailto:oakley@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 March, 2000 5:04 PM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around



In the UK the fundamental is the first harmonic, the second harmonic is
twice the fundamental and so on. We use the term overtone to describe
the higher orders. That is, the first overtone is the second harmonic,
the second overtone is the third harmonic, etc. Thus n in Fourier
equations, and mechanical resonance, is indeed the harmonic number.

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by jwbarlow@aol.com

In a message dated 3/22/2000 3:19:29 PM, oakley@... 
writes:

>>I usually use the term "partials" because it was beaten into me that
>the Fundamental is not a harmonic...

>Hi all,

>In the UK the fundamental is the first harmonic, the second harmonic is
>twice the fundamental and so on. We use the term overtone to describe
>the higher orders. That is, the first overtone is the second harmonic,
>the second overtone is the third harmonic, etc. Thus n in Fourier
>equations, and mechanical resonance, is indeed the harmonic number.

This is the way I've always heard it as well (on the left coast of the US), 
first harmonic = fundamental, second harmonic = first overtone.

>But we also have different terms for 'note' and 'tone', and I'll be
>buggered if I can remenber which is which :-)

But you don't have semi-demi-hemi-tones do you (which would probably be a 
very small interval)?

JB

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by jwbarlow@aol.com

In a message dated 3/22/2000 6:04:04 PM, jwbarlow@... writes:

>>In the UK the fundamental is the first harmonic, the second harmonic is
>>twice the fundamental and so on. We use the term overtone to describe
>>the higher orders. That is, the first overtone is the second harmonic,
>>the second overtone is the third harmonic, etc. Thus n in Fourier
>>equations, and mechanical resonance, is indeed the harmonic number.
>
>This is the way I've always heard it as well (on the left coast of the
>US), 
>first harmonic = fundamental, second harmonic = first overtone.

And I had heard it wrong! I looked it up in an old booklet from Scientific 
American called "The Physics of Music" which is a great little (110 pg.) 
booklet by the way, made up of old articles from Scientific American about 
the physics of....

On the first page of the first chapter ("Physics and Music" by Fredrick A. 
Saunders from July 1948) it states, "The vibration with the lowest frequency 
corresponding to the number 1, is called the fundamental; the sound with 
double this frequency is called the first harmonic, and the higher harmonics 
are calculated in like manner."

So I offer this solution: call the fundamental, the zeroth harmonic!
JB

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-03-22 12:50:30 EST, you write:

<< The ear hears the spectrum, not the oscilloscope image. >>



ken,
here, i have to pretty much agree with you. after a certain point, no matter 
how cool a waveform looks on a scope, it simply starts to sound "bright" ( 
high harmonic content ). those really weird waves do come into play more as 
c.v. sources for odd modulations. its not the static waveform but how it 
evolves that our ear / brain system finds intersting.
best,
dave v.

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by jwbarlow@aol.com

In a message dated 3/22/2000 10:50:32 AM, ken.tkacs@... writes:

>Really? I find that very strange. I've *always* approached synthesis with
>the harmonic spectrum in mind. The waveform is the *result* of the sound's
>harmonic content. 

Or is the harmonic spectrum the *result* of the waveform? HA!
Obviously, they are each a different perspective of the same phenomenon. But 
I agree entirely about an approach (from a musical point of view) to a 
particular sound, either add harmonic content, or subtract. My comments about 
waveforms were more (as I think Bradley saw) directed at the engineering 
point of view -- how do you build such a device?


>Also, additive synthesis and Fourier analysis predate digital by a pretty
>good margin. These were terms that we used to discuss in the old analog
>days
>long before the first digital synthesizers hit the market. 


Cologne school.


While I agree
>that additive synthesis is probably easier to implement in digital, I don't
>think it's at odds with analog at all. That's why we use more than one
>VCO!


I think a similar idea has been batted around here in the past, and I seem to 
recall that a statement about DSP being a cinch for this kind of thing -- 
VC-DSP, hmmmm.

>I agree that waveform manipulation is easier in analog, and I think that
>the
>discussions of waveform shapers, folders, and multipliers can be very
>fruitful. But as a generalization, they still only affect the amplitudes
>of
>the existing harmonics (I usually use the term "partials" because it was
>beaten into me that the Fundamental is not a harmonic, so when you want
>to
>refer to *all* of the Fourier components, including the fundamental, you
>need to use 'partial' rather than 'harmonic.

>Know what I mean though?  After the fundamental, the harmonics in simple
>waveforms are specified as period-times-1/2 (octave, or first harmonic),
>times-1/3 (octave-fifth, or second harmonic), times-1/4 (two octaves, or
>third harmonic, etc.). You can filter this, waveshape it, and so on but
>you
>still aren't changing these relationships unless you run the signal through
>a ring modulator. The fact that these relationships are 'set in stone'
>while
>so many other aspects of the sound are open to us for manipulation ...


>The reason this kinda thing keeps me up at night is because I'm interested
>in microtonal music. Our musical scale closely parallels the harmonic series
>of simple waveforms like we've been talking about (at least until you get
>up
>in the range where the compromises of equal temperament cause a divergence).
>When you look at the unusual scales of other cultures, like the music of
>the
>gamelan, they aren't just playing weird tunings with Western
>instruments---their instruments produce tones with harmonics that echo
>and
>fall in line with their scales, just as ours does. We have instruments
>that
>produce "simple waveforms" (please allow me that ridiculous statement)
>that
>work with our equal tempered scale, and they have instruments that have
>complex tones and scales to match them.


I would be quite interested to know more about this! Do you have any 
references I could look at in this regard? One thing that occurs to me at the 
moment is that many of the metalaphones present in gamalen music might be 
seen as having an FM or AM component to them. Have you looked in to mimicking 
this behavior via AM and FM?

>I find this whole thing very interesting. I'd love to play with those
>relationships. Sure, digital's always an option, but I want to do it with
>patchcords and knobs! Typing on a keyboard to specify harmonics is for
>the
>birds.


As you rightly point out, additive EM is an expensive proposition outside of 
digital. But, as I said above, I wonder if extremely precise use of FM (or 
AM) might yield some similar timbres to what you're after. In my previous 
experiments with one VCO modulating a second which then modulates the first, 
I've gotten many interesting timbres including lots of non-harmonic 
overtones, but I've found that I can only use these voices over a very 
limited range since every error is multiplied and becomes profound rather 
quickly. I've had a bit of luck using sync to reduce this error without 
totally eliminating the complexity of the timbre.

Good points Ken! Keep em coming!
JB

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by J. Larry Hendry

> From: jwbarlow@...
> So I offer this solution: call the fundamental, the zeroth harmonic!
> JB

Looks like a kind of a "stoogy" answer to me.
LH

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by jwbarlow@aol.com

In a message dated 3/22/2000 7:51:01 PM, jlarryh@... writes:

>> From: jwbarlow@...
>> So I offer this solution: call the fundamental, the zeroth harmonic!
>> JB

>Looks like a kind of a "stoogy" answer to me.

Just the kind of comment I'd expect, coming form the *zeroth* stooge!!!
JB
BTW, you did send that box out, didn't you? Otherwise I might have to 
rephrase that last bit!

Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by davevosh@aol.com

In a message dated 00-03-22 22:43:11 EST, you write:

<< But, as I said above, I wonder if extremely precise use of FM (or 
 AM) might yield some similar timbres to what you're after. In my previous 
 experiments with one VCO modulating a second which then modulates the first, 
 I've gotten many interesting timbres including lots of non-harmonic 
 overtones, but I've found that I can only use these voices over a very 
 limited range since every error is multiplied and becomes profound rather 
 quickly.  >>



john,
yes, audio rate am or fm, plain linear or through zero should work nicely 
here.
i like messing around with 3 vco`s in a loop - again, the limited range 
overall but some great complex noises are in there !
best,
dave v.

RE: [motm] Pushing Partials Around

2000-03-23 by Tkacs, Ken

That's how I was taught, too. I like the Zeroeth Harmonic name!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: 	jwbarlow@... [mailto:jwbarlow@...] 
Sent:	Wednesday, 22 March, 2000 9:48 PM
To:	motm@onelist.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] Pushing Partials Around



And I had heard it wrong! I looked it up in an old booklet from Scientific 
American called "The Physics of Music" which is a great little (110 pg.) 
booklet by the way, made up of old articles from Scientific American about 
the physics of....

On the first page of the first chapter ("Physics and Music" by Fredrick A. 
Saunders from July 1948) it states, "The vibration with the lowest frequency

corresponding to the number 1, is called the fundamental; the sound with 
double this frequency is called the first harmonic, and the higher harmonics

are calculated in like manner."

So I offer this solution: call the fundamental, the zeroth harmonic!
JB

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