MOTM

n0nspaz@... (markus) writes:

>>my naive $.02 on the sequencer thing.
i vote for the 'modular sequencer' idea where one starts first with, say a 
basic 1x8 module which then interfaces to.... (purchase #2) some kind of 
master brain module for the sequencer modules(a 1u or 2u module with 
functions for the daughter modules). would it actually be possible to buy 
as many sequencer modules as one liked ?<<

NFAY@... (norman fay) write:

>>IMO run/skip/rest switches for each stage is THEE essential feature on an 
analogue sequencer.<<

I have been totally baffled by all the interest in simple analog step 
sequencers in the recent years.  People want 7 steps instead of 8, some want 
skip/rest switches (like Polyfusion), some want to be able to link sequencers 
to expand beyond 8 or 16 steps, and a million other things.  You can have all 
of those things and more.  You can have up to 12,500 event storage, 8 control 
voltages, 4 gates and 4 triggers per step, real-time cv/gate entry, step-time 
cv/gate entry, numerical entry, ext clockable, voltage controlled sequencer 
rate, and so on.  It's called the Roland MC-4.  Even when it was mentioned 
that Rogue music still had some new units at only $400 I didn't see hordes of 
people bang down their door to grab that great deal.  What's wrong with 
everybody?

-Elhardt

Well here's one perspective:

The simple analog step sequencers you're talking about have knobs and
the ability to work with voltages in real-time. You are not enslaved to
a calculator-pad entry method and edits are immediate. I don't think
anyone is intending to use them to reproduce Vivaldi's Concerto for
Strings and Thoroughbass in G minor (though that would be a noble task,
however foolhardy). 

But of course with a MC-4 (or 8) you *can* do more complex work--and
everything you say about the MC-4's power is correct. But what I'm
curious about is why you would use such a device, which, if it has
storage uses tape backup (can't recall), instead of a computer or
hardware sequencer with a rock-solid MIDI interface (such as the newer
type that buffer timing information) and a full-featured MIDI-CV
converter. 

If you are indeed using the MC-4, I applaud your effort, and I'd like to
know what makes you want to use it. I would love to try my MC-8, but I
still haven't gotten around to having a cable made for it (if anyone has
a spare, I have cash). But I wouldn't use it nearly as much as the
simple sequencers I use on the FR777, SH-101, (past) Roland 104, etc. Or
as much as the Frostwave Fat Controller that's coming my way (I'd bet).
Of course, I quit sequencing with my computer years ago, and I only use
MIDI for timing when necessary, and never for notes. Perhaps that's
where your allegiance to the MC-4 (if your impassioned post is indeed
implying that) comes from--because it's *not* MIDI.

I just thought it was obvious that there are a hell of a lot of
different sequencers out there, and there are a lot of people choosing
different ones based on their needs. People buying an 8x2, knob- or
slide-laden step sequencer probably weren't in the market for the power
the MC-4 has to offer. I think the Encore Expressionist looks pretty
neat, but honestly, I don't know what I'd do with it. If I want to play
classical or jazz I pick up my trumpet. My electronic music is in an
entirely different place, far outside my formal education.

And of course, anyone having read about Suzanne Ciani's nightmare
session, having to re-enter an entire composition to overwrite the
transposed mistakes of an assistant (or something like that) may be
skeptical of working with (and hopefully saving with) older technology.

BTW--are you sure it was Rogue who had the NOS MC-4s? Because Dr Sound
used to have a boatload of NOS MC-4s and MC-8s (as well as 100m cabinets
and keyboards). If Rogue had any, I would bet they got them from Dr
Sound.

BTW2--Dr Sound has *one* NOS Roland 180 keyboard left. I bought the
second to last. Almost all of the 100m cabinets are gone too. There's
one left NOS, and a module or two (used perhaps) in the counter by the
stairs. Supposedly the MOTM freaks bought 10 keyboards in a *single
weekend* and some guy bought all the modular stuff (and asked an
employee to show him how it worked!) Must be nice to plunk down
thousands of dollars without knowing what the f*** you're buying or how
to use it.

Later,

David. 

-----Original Message-----
From: elhardt@...
To: motm@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/30/01 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [motm] No kitchen sinks & run/skip/rest (sequencers)

n0nspaz@... (markus) writes:

>>my naive $.02 on the sequencer thing.
i vote for the 'modular sequencer' idea where one starts first with, say
a 
basic 1x8 module which then interfaces to.... (purchase #2) some kind of

master brain module for the sequencer modules(a 1u or 2u module with 
functions for the daughter modules). would it actually be possible to
buy 
as many sequencer modules as one liked ?<<

NFAY@... (norman fay) write:

>>IMO run/skip/rest switches for each stage is THEE essential feature on
an 
analogue sequencer.<<

I have been totally baffled by all the interest in simple analog step 
sequencers in the recent years.  People want 7 steps instead of 8, some
want 
skip/rest switches (like Polyfusion), some want to be able to link
sequencers 
to expand beyond 8 or 16 steps, and a million other things.  You can
have all 
of those things and more.  You can have up to 12,500 event storage, 8
control 
voltages, 4 gates and 4 triggers per step, real-time cv/gate entry,
step-time 
cv/gate entry, numerical entry, ext clockable, voltage controlled
sequencer 
rate, and so on.  It's called the Roland MC-4.  Even when it was
mentioned 
that Rogue music still had some new units at only $400 I didn't see
hordes of 
people bang down their door to grab that great deal.  What's wrong with 
everybody?

-Elhardt

dbivins@... writes:

>>The simple analog step sequencers you're talking about have knobs and the 
ability to work with voltages in real-time. You are not enslaved to a 
calculator-pad entry method and edits are immediate.<<

Well the CV outputs on a Roland MC-4 or MC-8 get patched into a synth to 
control some parameter which will still have a knob that can be tweaked in 
realtime.  If you're turning knobs on the analog sequencer in real-time, 
you're kind of defeating the point of a sequencer.  Might as well use an LFO 
as a gate and just start turning knobs on the synth.

>>But what I'm curious about is why you would use such a device, which, if it 
has
storage uses tape backup (can't recall), instead of a computer or hardware 
sequencer with a rock-solid MIDI interface (such as the newer type that 
buffer timing information) and a full-featured MIDI-CV converter.<<

I knew if I brought up using a computer and midi-cv converter I would be too 
far away from an analog sequencer and would just get an endless chain of 
posts about how it doesn't replace an analog sequencer.  The MC-4 sits right 
next to the synth and is more immediate to use and is basically a replacement 
for an analog sequencer but far more flexible.  I see people fork out a lot 
of money to generate 8 or 16 notes or CV's on a very limited analog sequencer 
when they can do far more with an MC-4.  I don't use my MC-4 for full length 
compositions because a computer with midi-cv interface is far better at that. 
 When I bought my MC-4, there was no such thing as Midi though.  The reason I 
brought this up is because people keep asking for features that already exist 
in the MC-4.

Now if you are buying an analog sequencer because you like the looks of all 
those LED's lighting up, I can see the appeal there.  And supposedly if they 
can be clocked fast enough, you can use them to generate audio waveforms.  
That could be interesting.

>>BTW--are you sure it was Rogue who had the NOS MC-4s? Because Dr Sound
used to have a boatload of NOS MC-4s and MC-8s (as well as 100m cabinets
and keyboards). If Rogue had any, I would bet they got them from Dr Sound.<<

Now that you mention it, it probably was Dr Sound.  I always tend to get 
those two mixed up.

-Elhardt

Wow, this is not true at all!

Have you ever heard of some guys who call themselves "Tangerine Dream"? They
made a _career_ on repeating ostinatos with slowly changing parameters,
essentially letting a sequencer freewheel and adjusting the knobs in real
time while it does.

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	elhardt@... [mailto:elhardt@...] 
Sent:	Tuesday, 30 January, 2001 3:53 AM
To:	motm@yahoogroups.com
Subject:	Re: [motm] No kitchen sinks & run/skip/rest (sequencers)

If you're turning knobs on the analog sequencer in real-time, 
you're kind of defeating the point of a sequencer.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: elhardt@... [mailto:elhardt@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 3:53 AM
> To: motm@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [motm] No kitchen sinks & run/skip/rest (sequencers)
> 
> 
> dbivins@... writes:
> 
> >>The simple analog step sequencers you're talking about have 
> knobs and the 
> ability to work with voltages in real-time. You are not enslaved to a 
> calculator-pad entry method and edits are immediate.<<
> 
> Well the CV outputs on a Roland MC-4 or MC-8 get patched into 
> a synth to 
> control some parameter which will still have a knob that can 
> be tweaked in 
> realtime.  

Of course.

> If you're turning knobs on the analog sequencer in 
> real-time, 
> you're kind of defeating the point of a sequencer.  

??? 

I can't imagine having so much control over my improvisations if I had to
work the entire modular system surface rather than one or more rows of
sliders or knobs. What if, in real-time, you wish to alter one note or
cutoff value among 16? Have you ever used an arpeggiator and changed one
note in the chord in real-time? I'm sure you have.

But honestly, this is like the conversation I had with a certain modular
manufacturer who couldn't *imagine* why I would want voltage control over
the individual stages of a contour generator. My response to him was "it's
not *your* business to imagine what I'll use it for--it's mine!" And I guess
that's my general feeling here. Different tools for different jobs, and you
probably don't care for the jobs I take on.

> Might as 
> well use an LFO 
> as a gate and just start turning knobs on the synth.

Not really. I do that as well. But it's a pain in the ass if you're actually
trying to send a repeatable series of voltages into one or more modules,
isn't it? And that's the point of any CV sequencer--storing and outputting
sequences of voltages.

Just to continue the thread on uses of analog step sequencers, I rarely use a step
sequencer to just play a series of notes. Instead I use an analog step sequencer to
provide some "controlled randomness" in patches.  The little demo of the MOTM-300
Linear FM on Paul's site:
http://www.synthtech.com/motm/m300/linearfm.mp3
used a step sequencer that was advanced by the keyboard gate.  This allowed me to
"tune" the FM intervals on each note quickly with knobs so the intervals sounded
good with what I was playing.  A S&H in the same application would not allow me to
get the intervals to work all the time.  I have done the same thing with sequencers
into VCFs too.  So, a simple step sequencer can be used to cycle through a series of
"tuned" CVs for at least a few applications...

Eric



__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 
a year!  http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

dbivins@... writes:

>>I can't imagine having so much control over my improvisations if I had to
 work the entire modular system surface rather than one or more rows of
 sliders or knobs. What if, in real-time, you wish to alter one note or
 cutoff value among 16? Have you ever used an arpeggiator and changed one
 note in the chord in real-time? I'm sure you have.<<

Yes, but I just press a key with a known value.  I sure won't be able to get 
the right note by turning a knob in realtime (even through a quantizer).  But 
my comment was about these small step sequencer's popularity in general, over 
something far more powerful.  There will always be one or two people that 
will need to turn a sequencer knob in realtime, but what about the other 99% 
who want an abitrary number of steps, individual gates per step, more than 
one CV per step and so on?  I'm just saying that it is available.  And I'm 
surprised that the price of used MC-4 / 8's haven't shot up like analog 
prices have.

-Elhardt