The Mellotron Group

On Oct 19, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:

> For everyone's information, I asked Robert about the 'oddities' on  
> Epitaph and got this in reply:
>
>
> "the album was re-mixed. that's the answer. the original mix was the  
> template, but it's not possible to exactly match the original. so,  
> in the details, there may be changes."
>
> So there you are.

So he seems to be saying that they couldn't match the original. Did  
they even try? I have to say that I am let down by what I've heard  
from your two samples. Omitting that high note in the resolution of  
the chorus into the verse was not a wise move in my opinion. Whatever  
their intention, it sounds like a note was left out, and I really  
can't see any concrete musical reason for it. To my mind, it was one  
of the most elegant moments on the whole album. But in thinking about  
it, if you've heard any of the live versions of this song by KC, the  
high note was not included (for obvious reasons: only one mellotron on  
stage) -- and maybe that's coloured Fripp's thinking. Only he can say.  
I think it is a huge omission.

As for the climax before the instrumental interlude, that was  
obviously a complex thing to construct (and why it was so effective).  
They've just done a new take on what was there. That is their  
prerogative. However, the new mix would never have caused me to say,  
"I don't know what that thing is, but I want one!" which was my  
initial reaction -- like so many others'.

Rick

Has Robert actually stopped using capital letters at the beginning of  
sentences on all his communications? How 20-years-old of him!

Too bad some of the changes are for the worse. This is always a danger  
when re-mixing.

On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:19 AM, Mike Dickson wrote:

> For everyone's information, I asked Robert about the 'oddities' on  
> Epitaph and got this in reply:
>
>
> "the album was re-mixed. that's the answer. the original mix was the  
> template, but it's not possible to exactly match the original. so,  
> in the details, there may be changes."
>
> So there you are.
>
> -- 
> Mike Dickson, Edinburgh
>
>

Is it possible they could have played/flown in parts "live" during the mix? Yes did it on CTTE and I have done it many times in the past when track space was light, pre DAW obviously.


fritz

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Blechta <rick@rickblechta.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Court (Fripp Speaks)






















    

                  




On Oct 19, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Mike Dickson wrote:



For everyone's information, I asked Robert about the 'oddities' on Epitaph and got this in reply:




"the album was re-mixed. that's the answer. the original mix was the template, but it's not possible to exactly match the original. so, in the details, there may be changes."



So there you are.




So he seems to be saying that they couldn't match the original. Did they even try? I have to say that I am let down by what I've heard from your two samples. Omitting that high note in the resolution of the chorus into the verse was not a wise move in my opinion. Whatever their intention, it sounds like a note was left out, and I really can't see any concrete musical reason for it. To my mind, it was one of the most elegant moments on the whole album. But in thinking about it, if you've heard any of the live versions of this song by KC, the high note was not included (for obvious reasons: only one mellotron on stage) -- and maybe that's coloured Fripp's thinking. Only he can say. I think it is a huge omission.




As for the climax before the instrumental interlude, that was obviously a complex thing to construct (and why it was so effective). They've just done a new take on what was there. That is their prerogative. Howeve
r, the new mix would never have caused me to say, "I don't know what that thing is, but I want one!" which was my initial reaction -- like so many others'.




Rick




Has Robert actually stopped using capital letters at the beginning of sentences on all his communications? How 20-years-old of him!

On Oct 19, 2009, at 1:53 PM, fdoddy@aol.com wrote:

> Is it possible they could have played/flown in parts "live" during  
> the mix? Yes did it on CTTE and I have done it many times in the  
> past when track space was light, pre DAW obviously.

Martin,

Does Robert Fripp have any of his mellotrons? Fritz makes a good point.

One last thought of my own: I wonder how the other 4 members of the  
band feel about the changes. I can imagine how at least one of them  
feels...

Rick

I think the new album should be sub-titled "An alternative observation by King Crimson"

Personally the pitch bend issue doesn't bother me nearly as much as the dogs breakfast that is the DVD.

It may be just my DVD player, but it puts a gap between each track, so none of the cross fades work! That to me is unforgivable from a mastering point of view.

The bare bones of Epitaph's backing track in fun though. I'm sure it won't be long before some bright spark (probably here) starts playing with it and filling in the gaps!

Overall, despite everything, it isn't the disaster it could have been. After all, let's face it, they were always on a hiding to nothing. There was alwaya going to be something "not right". They were never going to win. I think it was a brave thing to attempt IMO. It was inevitably going to upset someone.

Not me though, I'm pleased to have another view of something I thought I knew. The 5.1 does highlight alot of brilliant playing I hadn't picked out before. 

Michael Giles drumming is a delight throughout, and to hear his kit in greater clarity is a revalation.

Andy K

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@gmail.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:19 pm
Subject: [newmellotrongroup] Court (Fripp Speaks)



 



For everyone's information, I asked Robert about the 'oddities' on Epitaph and got this in reply:




"the album was re-mixed. that's the answer. the original mix was the template, but it's not possible to exactly match the original. so, in the details, there may be changes."



So there you are.


-- 
Mike Dickson, Edinburgh

Yes live playing  over the final mix is a real possiblity. We used to do it way back when we ran out of tracks.

Regarding Ricks comment. I don't think GL will mind too much. His vocals sound sublime, and there is real bass for the first time!

Nothing so far has been mentioned of the extras. The off mike stuff and alternative versions are worth the the £12 on their own!

Andy K

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Blechta <rick@rickblechta.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, Oct 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Court (Fripp Speaks)



 







On Oct 19, 2009, at 1:53 PM, fdoddy@aol.com wrote:


Is it possible they could have played/flown in parts "live" during the mix? Yes did it on CTTE and I have done it many times in the past when track space was light, pre DAW obviously.




Martin,




Does Robert Fripp have any of his mellotrons? Fritz makes a good point.




One last thought of my own: I wonder how the other 4 members of the band feel about the changes. I can imagine how at least one of them feels...




Rick

On Oct 19, 2009, at 2:15 PM, kinchmusic@aol.com wrote:

> Regarding Ricks comment. I don't think GL will mind too much.

I was thinking more of Ian McDonald.

In a message dated 19/10/2009 18:57:39 GMT Daylight Time,  
rick@rickblechta.com writes:

Does  Robert Fripp have any of his mellotrons? Fritz makes a good  point


Yes, he has the Court machine.
 
M
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
_www.mellotronics.com_ (http://www.mellotronics.com/) 

US  Sales East: Jimmy Moore_  JMoore6397@aol.com_ 
(http://JMoore6397@aol.com/) 
US Sales West: Paul Cox_ pjc56@earthlink_ (mailto:pjc56@earthlink)  
Chloe Smith:  _myspace.com/chloesmithmusic_ 
(http://myspace.com/chloesmithmusic)

Next time you speak to Fripp will you please ask him where he buys his  
shoes?
 
Thanks
 
Hahn Solo... one legged shoe salesman
 
 
In a message dated 10/19/2009 1:20:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mike.dickson@gmail.com writes:

For everyone's information, I asked Robert about the 'oddities' on  Epitaph 
and got this in reply:  


"the album was re-mixed. that's the  answer. the original mix was the 
template, but it's not possible to exactly  match the original. so, in the 
details, there may be changes."


So there you are.

On Oct 19, 2009, at 4:06 PM, tony1 wrote:

> Hmmm  never thought to persuse the list members details, thanks!
> I still like "Red" the best and heard it preformed.
> Tony

I was kidding -- as I'm sure you know.

Yes, Rick... always the kidder. The truth is that Mike and Fripp are in  
love. It happened when Mike managed to get a copy of Mellotronworks into 
Fripp's  hands. The rest is history.
 
 
In a message dated 10/19/2009 4:09:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rick@rickblechta.com writes:

 
On Oct 19, 2009, at 4:06 PM, tony1 wrote:


Hmmm  never thought to persuse the list members  details, thanks!
I still like "Red" the best and heard it  preformed.
Tony



I was kidding -- as I'm sure you  know.

In a message dated 19/10/2009 18:48:47 GMT Daylight Time,  
djacques@csulb.edu writes:

This is  always a danger when re-mixing. 


In the same way the Beatles remixes are "different" and in some cases  
worse...
 
Norm

In a message dated 19/10/2009 22:21:31 GMT Daylight Time,  
mike.dickson@gmail.com writes:

I have about 30 e-mails from him here and in the 10 or so that comprise  
more than 2 sentences, none are capitalised at all.  





Robert has always been a lower case kind of chap.  His farewell  is: vbr 
robert.  Yo!
 
M
 
Streetly Electronics - All Things Mellotronic 
_www.mellotronics.com_ (http://www.mellotronics.com/) 

US  Sales East: Jimmy Moore_  JMoore6397@aol.com_ 
(http://JMoore6397@aol.com/) 
US Sales West: Paul Cox_ pjc56@earthlink_ (mailto:pjc56@earthlink)  
Chloe Smith:  _myspace.com/chloesmithmusic_ 
(http://myspace.com/chloesmithmusic)

Personally, I like the italics. Perhaps Robert is a lazy bastard who has  
had his ass kissed for so many years that in, in his own mind, he can do no  
wrong. I have never had much use for people who have a nickname they bestow 
upon  themselves and who often refer to themselves in the third person. Now 
if he  called himself, "The Dickwad," that would be totally different. 
 
 
In a message dated 10/19/2009 5:21:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
mike.dickson@gmail.com writes:

As for his writing style, he has always e-mailed me in that style. I have  
about 30 e-mails from him here and in the 10 or so that comprise more than 2 
 sentences, none are capitalised at all.

The Pitch bend is missing completely on the the Session 4 track backing track included on the CD. So it would have to have co-existed on an additional overdub track or was played live over the final mix.

Andy K

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Blechta <rick@rickblechta.com>
To: newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:57
Subject: Re: [newmellotrongroup] Court (Fripp Speaks)


 







On Oct 19, 2009, at 1:53 PM, fdoddy@aol.com wrote:


Is it possible they could have played/flown in parts "live" during the mix? Yes did it on CTTE and I have done it many times in the past when track space was light, pre DAW obviously.




Martin,




Does Robert Fripp have any of his mellotrons? Fritz makes a good point.




One last thought of my own: I wonder how the other 4 members of the band feel about the changes. I can imagine how at least one of them feels...




Rick

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dickson <mike.dickson@...> wrote:
>
> He went on to say that the original mix was an old fashioned 'all hands on
> the desk' affair and that replicating it was not possible. My response would
> be that a different *mix* is one thing, but a glaring omission like that is
> niot a mix decision at all - it's a bloody awful edit. You wont get the
> original mix spot-on of course, but you could at least *try*. Does anyone
> remember the 'definitive' *Islands* release that missed out the
> *Prelude* tune-up?

On a similar note (pardon the pun), does anyone out there have the mid-'70s German pressing of ItCotCK where they cut off the Schizoid Man's organ?... Uh let me explain that better: The pressing in question omits the harmonium sound at the beginning; it starts with the full band.

Jim Bailey

On Oct 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, trawnajim wrote:

> On a similar note (pardon the pun), does anyone out there have the  
> mid-'70s German pressing of ItCotCK where they cut off the Schizoid  
> Man's organ?... Uh let me explain that better: The pressing in  
> question omits the harmonium sound at the beginning; it starts with  
> the full band.

Jim, Jim... You don't understand how these things work. The calliope  
(cause that's what it was) intro cost $45 extra and they couldn't see  
the point of it, since they couldn't even identify the instrument.  
It's all financial.

--- In newmellotrongroup@yahoogroups.com, Rick Blechta <rick@...> wrote:
>
> 
> On Oct 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, trawnajim wrote:
> 
> > On a similar note (pardon the pun), does anyone out there have the  
> > mid-'70s German pressing of ItCotCK where they cut off the Schizoid  
> > Man's organ?... Uh let me explain that better: The pressing in  
> > question omits the harmonium sound at the beginning; it starts with  
> > the full band.
> 
> Jim, Jim... You don't understand how these things work. The calliope  
> (cause that's what it was) intro cost $45 extra and they couldn't see  
> the point of it, since they couldn't even identify the instrument.  
> It's all financial.

I couldn't identify it either, until Ian fessed up at Tronto MKII. Forgot that it was actually a calliope but hey, it's one of those small organ thingies. They're all pretty much the same - except for Mike's... uh, so I'm told!

Jim Bailey