Wiardgroup

Hello,

What are the rules regarding this ?

thanks

Hi Stefan
without any specifics... i suppose the best answer is common to all 
analog modulars. 
-regulated bipolar voltage (+/-15vdc in Wiard's case)
-as much available current as possible (i use a 1.5 amp supply for the 
15v supply in my SNO live rack)
-no ripple, as close to flatline battery-style DC as you can muster.

-doc 

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "stefanbonnet" <stefanbonnet@...> 
wrote:

>
> Hello,
> 
> What are the rules regarding this ?
> 
> thanks
>

thanks doc, I should have put my question more clearly... :

My system will be using several blacet power supplies, and I was just wondering if, besides 
the functional/esthetical layout and total current draw, I had to consider possible issues 
with powering some specific modules with others from the same psu (? my english is 
terrible, sorry)

I think I've read somewhere that Blacet research's power supllies are very conservately run 
: is it allright using them at their maximum 500 mA ?

thanks again

stephane


--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "drmabuce" <drmabuce@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Stefan
> without any specifics... i suppose the best answer is common to all 
> analog modulars. 
> -regulated bipolar voltage (+/-15vdc in Wiard's case)
> -as much available current as possible (i use a 1.5 amp supply for the 
> 15v supply in my SNO live rack)
> -no ripple, as close to flatline battery-style DC as you can muster.
> 
> -doc 
> 
> --- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "stefanbonnet" <stefanbonnet@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > 
> > What are the rules regarding this ?
> > 
> > thanks
> >
>

Hi Stephane

--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "stefanbonnet" <stefanbonnet@...>
wrote:
>
> (? my english is terrible, sorry)

your English is fine!
certainly much better than my
french/spanish/german/dutch/swedish/italian/russian or even canadian!
It seems to me that we yanks are very spoiled. i'm always shocked (and
a little shamed) when i learn that a correspondent whom i assumed was
American (or maybe British) is a native of Switzerland or Finland!
Your English is very clear!


> My system will be using several blacet power supplies, and I was
just wondering if, besides 
> the functional/esthetical layout and total current draw, I had to
consider possible issues 
> with powering some specific modules with others from the same psu
>

no, no issues
if your amperage-headroom is sufficient you can run all your Wiard
Modules from one power supply.



> I think I've read somewhere that Blacet research's power supllies
are very conservately run 
> : is it allright using them at their maximum 500 mA ?
> 


i can't address that issue because i have no experience with Blacet PSU's


best,
-doc

I've already put so many stupid questions/requests to grant, john Blacet, and michael 
Ford...
I have to thank you all. 

(I cannot say how much stress it has been since early june...buying/waiting for the 
shipments  (only one containing 2 power supplies and 1 quad vca has been lost/stolen), 
but I'm glad I did, now (since I have learned a lot about patience !))

Obviously 3 psu's would be safer...(anyway my plan has settled around 6/8 racks, so...it 
won't be lost)
Just in case, here are the details :
*first rack : 
2 vco's 
1 passive ring mod 
1 micro lfo 
1 wave multiplier
*second :
1 bananalogue vcs 
2 mixers/processors 
2 eg's
*third :
1 noise ring 
1 boogie 
2 borgs (one to be ordered soon, depending on the number of psu's I need) 
1 quad vca
*fourth :
6 multiples/att 
2 dual lin vca's 
1 quad vca

I already have 2 psconn2...
?

oh, and I wanted to ask :
My studio is next to the bathroom, which means that everytime I take a shower, well...I 
close the door/open the window as much as I can but the air does get wet sometimes...
Is it *really* bad ?

all the best

stephane

PS : some of you may have learned about james Tenney's death recently. His music was 
quite singular, at the same time formal and expressive, though a little cold...always 
interesting and instinctively accessible. 
Life is too short for art...

There are technical problems with talking about power draw. It is similar to the problems 
in the old days with amplifier power. How do you measure it? If different manufacturers 
use different methods, one may look better than another, but it can be a mirage.

Power draw in a module is not a constant. It fluctuates with usage. So what power do I list? 
Peak, average, RMS? With all inputs and outputs connected or not? If not all then how 
many? If I list the peak power it may be 10 times what the avarage power is. That is a sales 
liability.

The simplest method to determine power supply stability is to have a VCO attached to a 
tuner. Add modules to the power supply until the VCO reaches the level of instability you 
can accept. Then stop. This is bound to be less than the full rated power of the supply. But 
forms a FUNCTIONAL maximum draw.


--- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, Tyler Harwood <stin-g@...> wrote:

>
> On the Blacet order page there is information about the power draw of  
> each module. I have generally tried to add up the maximum draw of  
> agroup of modules and not go over 500mA per PSU. I've had to guess on  
> most of the non-Blacet modules, but it's not hard when using the  
> Blacet page as a reference point. It has wound up being an average of  
> about a rack and a half per PSU so the PSCONN2 comes in real handy  
> and saves some money too.  I'm not sure about the draw of Wiard  
> modules, but given their "unique behavior" I've generally counted  
> them as having a fairly high draw to be on the safe side.
> If Grant doesn't chime in here you could try calling him if you still  
> need to know. {English test!} I think the good old telephone is his  
> preferred form of communication. Closest to analog I guess! Hergh!
> Let us know what you find out!
> ~Tyler
> 
> PS- If you talk to Grant ask him how the new Woggle Bug design is  
> going... I'm scared to do it on this list... or wait... did I just...  
> eek!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 28, 2006, at 7:30 AM, drmabuce wrote:
> 
> > Hi Stephane
> >
> > --- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "stefanbonnet" <stefanbonnet@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > (? my english is terrible, sorry)
> >
> > your English is fine!
> > certainly much better than my
> > french/spanish/german/dutch/swedish/italian/russian or even canadian!
> > It seems to me that we yanks are very spoiled. i'm always shocked (and
> > a little shamed) when i learn that a correspondent whom i assumed was
> > American (or maybe British) is a native of Switzerland or Finland!
> > Your English is very clear!
> >
> > > My system will be using several blacet power supplies, and I was
> > just wondering if, besides
> > > the functional/esthetical layout and total current draw, I had to
> > consider possible issues
> > > with powering some specific modules with others from the same psu
> > >
> >
> > no, no issues
> > if your amperage-headroom is sufficient you can run all your Wiard
> > Modules from one power supply.
> >
> > > I think I've read somewhere that Blacet research's power supllies
> > are very conservately run
> > > : is it allright using them at their maximum 500 mA ?
> > >
> >
> > i can't address that issue because i have no experience with Blacet  
> > PSU's
> >
> > best,
> > -doc
> >
> >
> >
>

Awwww.. Grant!

-- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Grant Richter" <grichter@...> wrote:
> The simplest method to determine power supply stability is to have a
VCO attached to a 
> tuner. Add modules to the power supply until the VCO reaches the
level of instability you 
> can accept. 
>

a good rule of thumb...to be sure

but you should take care to specify that said VCO's should be nice
well-behaved storebought Oscillators (like the Wiard 'Classic') and
not surly bolshevik DIY contraptions!
Hell Professor!, My VCO's are unstable when i run 'em off BATTERIES!
;'>

but seriously ...
Thanks for not  being too sqeamish to shine a light on entropy. The
craving for simple answers has become a modern plague ....and to
'Marketing Professionals' (an oxymoron of epic proportions) this
plague has been a positive boon.**
 'Published Specs' has become my favorite genre of fiction! Specs have
been so pervasively subverted by 'marketing engineers' that no layman
consumer in his right mind should trust them. This sad state of
affairs has polluted even as deeply as chip manufacturer data sheets.
The old proverb "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics" says it best.

As you point out, current consumption is a graph , not a number,  and
this is why i advise anyone who asks me to plan some 'headroom' into
their power supplies. If you run a PSU very close to it's limit, it is
just --possible-- that a condition could occur that lights all the
LED's  in the rack at once and the fuse pops.  My experience is that
the module manufacturer is always blamed (and the angy message always
contains the perennial fallacy: "It never failed before") And if the
hapless maker published a current consumption number, there's always
one user who will try to treat it as a NIST certification.

This issue is exaggerated in this new, modern, a-go-go modular era of
mix & match systems. In the old modular days, Dr. Bob made sure to
install a power supply with sufficent current reserve (and then some)
 to supply all the Moog modules you ordered in your cabinet at
simultaneous peak conditions. This luxury has been laid aside in order
to bring the cost of modules down. (and the synth cabinets tend to
weigh less than a B3 nowadays too)

My own hard-knocks lesson in this came during my primordial DIY
fumblings when i'd augment an Odyssey and try to run my boards off the
'surplus' current in the on-board power supply. The upper left corner
of the panel kept my tea warm while i worked in that cold basement! 

-doc

**
ie: Sunn's tests demonstrated that their Coliseum power amp COULD
actually perform at it's published output spec. The marketing folks
just felt that it was delving into too much techie detail to mention
that during the  test , the unit was submerged in liquid nitrogen, the
fuse was bypassed, and amp was only required to sustain the rated
output for 4 milliseconds..... 
The only truthful THD spec is 'Yes'


> There are technical problems with talking about power draw. It is
similar to the problems 
> in the old days with amplifier power. How do you measure it? If
different manufacturers 
> use different methods, one may look better than another, but it can
be a mirage.
> 
> Power draw in a module is not a constant. It fluctuates with usage.
So what power do I list? 
> Peak, average, RMS? With all inputs and outputs connected or not? If
not all then how 
> many? If I list the peak power it may be 10 times what the avarage
power is. That is a sales 
> liability.
> 
> Then stop. This is bound to be less than the full rated power of the
supply. But 
> forms a FUNCTIONAL maximum draw.
>

Hi all

I am new to Wiard (it will mean a jump to frac rack)

I have looked at Wiard stuff for over a year now and wonder if there is 
new stuff coming out soon?

I think I hear that Grant was making a complete modular?

Has anyone banana jacked their wiards to sit in with their Serge or 
Modcan, or Fennix?

I would love a silver version of the blue panels with banana jacks ( I 
really love the blue look but am trying to keep a uniform look)
Ross



drmabuce wrote:

>
> Awwww.. Grant!
>
> -- In wiardgroup@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:wiardgroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Grant Richter" <grichter@...> 
> wrote:
> > The simplest method to determine power supply stability is to have a
> VCO attached to a
> > tuner. Add modules to the power supply until the VCO reaches the
> level of instability you
> > can accept.
> >
>
> a good rule of thumb...to be sure
>
> but you should take care to specify that said VCO's should be nice
> well-behaved storebought Oscillators (like the Wiard 'Classic') and
> not surly bolshevik DIY contraptions!
> Hell Professor!, My VCO's are unstable when i run 'em off BATTERIES!
> ;'>
>
> but seriously ...
> Thanks for not being too sqeamish to shine a light on entropy. The
> craving for simple answers has become a modern plague ....and to
> 'Marketing Professionals' (an oxymoron of epic proportions) this
> plague has been a positive boon.**
> 'Published Specs' has become my favorite genre of fiction! Specs have
> been so pervasively subverted by 'marketing engineers' that no layman
> consumer in his right mind should trust them. This sad state of
> affairs has polluted even as deeply as chip manufacturer data sheets.
> The old proverb "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics" says it best.
>
> As you point out, current consumption is a graph , not a number, and
> this is why i advise anyone who asks me to plan some 'headroom' into
> their power supplies. If you run a PSU very close to it's limit, it is
> just --possible-- that a condition could occur that lights all the
> LED's in the rack at once and the fuse pops. My experience is that
> the module manufacturer is always blamed (and the angy message always
> contains the perennial fallacy: "It never failed before") And if the
> hapless maker published a current consumption number, there's always
> one user who will try to treat it as a NIST certification.
>
> This issue is exaggerated in this new, modern, a-go-go modular era of
> mix & match systems. In the old modular days, Dr. Bob made sure to
> install a power supply with sufficent current reserve (and then some)
> to supply all the Moog modules you ordered in your cabinet at
> simultaneous peak conditions. This luxury has been laid aside in order
> to bring the cost of modules down. (and the synth cabinets tend to
> weigh less than a B3 nowadays too)
>
> My own hard-knocks lesson in this came during my primordial DIY
> fumblings when i'd augment an Odyssey and try to run my boards off the
> 'surplus' current in the on-board power supply. The upper left corner
> of the panel kept my tea warm while i worked in that cold basement!
>
> -doc
>
> **
> ie: Sunn's tests demonstrated that their Coliseum power amp COULD
> actually perform at it's published output spec. The marketing folks
> just felt that it was delving into too much techie detail to mention
> that during the test , the unit was submerged in liquid nitrogen, the
> fuse was bypassed, and amp was only required to sustain the rated
> output for 4 milliseconds.....
> The only truthful THD spec is 'Yes'
>
> > There are technical problems with talking about power draw. It is
> similar to the problems
> > in the old days with amplifier power. How do you measure it? If
> different manufacturers
> > use different methods, one may look better than another, but it can
> be a mirage.
> >
> > Power draw in a module is not a constant. It fluctuates with usage.
> So what power do I list?
> > Peak, average, RMS? With all inputs and outputs connected or not? If
> not all then how
> > many? If I list the peak power it may be 10 times what the avarage
> power is. That is a sales
> > liability.
> >
> > Then stop. This is bound to be less than the full rated power of the
> supply. But
> > forms a FUNCTIONAL maximum draw.
> >
>
>

I won't speak for Grant as to what may or may not be in the Wiard 
product pipeline, but as someone who was hung up on the banana 
jack / congruent appearance issue for far too long (at significant 
personal opportunity cost!) I will respond to your format questions. 
Grant is a wonderful inventor and a great guy but the sort of 
customization you seek simply requires too much alteration to his 
existing designs to be time- and cost-effective for him or for his 
customers. His efforts are better spent filling standard orders and 
working on R&D for his next good idea. I suggest that you simply 
bite the bullet and get a Frac Rack. I have had no issues 
interfacing 300 or 1200 modules to my Serge and Modcan A series 
systems. I have the grounds of my respective power supplies 
connected together, and with a few 1/8" to banana cables and a 
couple of 1/8" mults with one banana jack each I've never been at a 
loss for routing audio and control back and forth. Perhaps some of 
his future designs will be more easily convertable to banana jacks, 
but in the meanwhile don't risk missing out on using his superb 
modules over what are ultimately rather trivial differences in 
format preference.

Best wishes!

Chris Sawyer

I won't speak for Grant as to what may or may not be in the Wiard 
product pipeline, but as someone who was hung up on the banana 
jack / congruent appearance issue for far too long (at significant 
personal opportunity cost!) I will respond to your format questions. 
Grant is a wonderful inventor and a great guy but the sort of 
customization you seek simply requires too much alteration to his 
existing designs to be time- and cost-effective for him or for his 
customers. His efforts are better spent filling standard orders and 
working on R&D for his next good idea. I suggest that you simply 
bite the bullet and get a Frac Rack. I have had no issues 
interfacing 300 or 1200 modules to my Serge and Modcan A series 
systems. I have the grounds of my respective power supplies 
connected together, and with a few 1/8" to banana cables and a 
couple of 1/8" mults with one banana jack each I've never been at a 
loss for routing audio and control back and forth. Perhaps some of 
his future designs will be more easily convertable to banana jacks, 
but in the meanwhile don't risk missing out on using his superb 
modules over what are ultimately rather trivial differences in 
format preference.

Best wishes!

Chris Sawyer