Emu XL-7 & MP-7 User's Group

until recently, if i wanted a patch to be routed to a particular 
sub-output (send) i would save an edited copy of the patch with "->2" 
appended to the patch name so i could tell it's routed to send 2, or 
sub-output 1.

of course this consumes a memory location for a patch which is often just 
a duplicate patch. not ideal.

better way: leave the "output" parameter alone in the patch. go into the 
event editor and create an event for that MIDI channel on CC-79:
  Controller 79 is hard-coded to the Mix Output parameter.
   0 = Use Preset
   1 = Send 1
   2 = Send 2
   3 = Send 3
   4 = Send 4

while looping, create the CC-79 event at tick 002. make sure it works as 
desired, then move the event to tick 001 (where it's used to set up the 
patch but won't loop).

with different effects (or effect/no-effect), multiple CC-79 messages can 
be used to bounce a patch to different effects/sends during different 
sections of a loop ;)


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	A student once asked me, "Dr. Pauling, how do you go about having
 	good ideas?" and I answered, "You have a lot of ideas and you throw
 	away the bad ones".
 	      -- Linus Pauling

Nice. Now how do I use return to mix other instruments?

On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Matt wrote:

> Nice. Now how do I use return to mix other instruments?
====================

i'm using an external mixer, so i can't offer any advise on effect 
returns. anyone?


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
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 	"Expansion of livestock production is a key factor in
 	 deforestation, especially in Latin America where the
 	 greatest amount of deforestation is occurring - 70% of
 	 previous forested land in the Amazon is occupied by
 	 pastures, and feedcrops cover a large part of the
 	 remainder."
 		-- Livestock's long shadow, 2006
 		UN report sponsored by WTO, EU, AS-AID, FAO, et al

I am too but boy that sounds useful in a pinch

I saw that CC 79 is hard coded the way you describe, but for the most part I don't use the sends to route audio to the subouts. That being said--this is an absoultely wonderful tip (and a superb explanation of how to use it)! It almost makes me want to do something with this feature.

On the other hand, I have long used the returns on the "outputs" as a passive mixer (which someone else was asking about). Basically, you use TRS cables [aka return/send cables] that split into separate send and return plugs.

As the manual shows, the tip is the audio out (send) and the ring is the audio in (return). If you have a snake with 4 TRS connectors on one end and 4 plugs connected to the tips and 4 plugs connected to the rings on the the other end, you can use the the 4 ring plugs (return) to take audio from other gear and route it to the main outs through sub 1 and sub 2. The volume controls on the external gear are use to set your levels.

Since I don't simultaneously use the sub outs and the returns in this fashion, I am not sure what the implications are. Looking at the output section illustration, I am guessing that you can still use the sub outs (tip plugs) as separate outs while using the returns.

If you have any plugs in sub1 or sub2 at all, they show up in the MIX OUTPUT parameter menu item. If no plugs are there, the four sends get routed to the main audio outs. If the E-Mu detects a jack of any type in sub1, you >>can<< use send 2 to output audio to sub 1 out. If it detects a jack in sub 2, you >>can<< use send 3 to output audio to sub 2 out. Of course, if you are just doing the passive mixer thing, you can still have send 2 and send 3 going to main out. (See the output section and effects processors illustration.)

Under no circumstances can you route external audio back into an E-Mu synth to process it with either the effects processors or the P2K synth engine. You'd need an EOS Sampler with specific options installed to be able to do those things.

Again, great tip about CC79!!

Steve 

 

 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

>
> until recently, if i wanted a patch to be routed to a particular 
> sub-output (send) i would save an edited copy of the patch with "->2" 
> appended to the patch name so i could tell it's routed to send 2, or 
> sub-output 1.
> 
> of course this consumes a memory location for a patch which is often just 
> a duplicate patch. not ideal.
> 
> better way: leave the "output" parameter alone in the patch. go into the 
> event editor and create an event for that MIDI channel on CC-79:
>   Controller 79 is hard-coded to the Mix Output parameter.
>    0 = Use Preset
>    1 = Send 1
>    2 = Send 2
>    3 = Send 3
>    4 = Send 4
> 
> while looping, create the CC-79 event at tick 002. make sure it works as 
> desired, then move the event to tick 001 (where it's used to set up the 
> patch but won't loop).
> 
> with different effects (or effect/no-effect), multiple CC-79 messages can 
> be used to bounce a patch to different effects/sends during different 
> sections of a loop ;)
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	A student once asked me, "Dr. Pauling, how do you go about having
>  	good ideas?" and I answered, "You have a lot of ideas and you throw
>  	away the bad ones".
>  	      -- Linus Pauling
>

I haven't tried this tip yet - sounds killer. No glitches or dropouts?

It prompted me to look at the MIDI spec in the manual- there are a few other destinations worth looking at:

- Controller 80 is hard-coded to the Arp Status parameter - 0=Off, 1=On, 2=P (preset), 3=M (master)
- Controllers 91-96 for FX depth (but why are there 5 for 2 fx processors)?
-And a few that raise an eybrow - 71 for 'Timbre/Har Inten' , 74 for 'Brightness' 

I used the XL-7 subs as a line mixer for ages, using 4 RCA - 1/4in jack converters (see pic) I fed each with one RCA channel. Not the most elegant solution, but it served me well.
http://www.giggear.com.au/images/D/AD-17%20Adaptor%202%20RCA(F)%20-%201%20TRS(M)%20rear.jpg
 
Cheers,
J

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> I saw that CC 79 is hard coded the way you describe, but for the most part I don't use the sends to route audio to the subouts. That being said--this is an absoultely wonderful tip (and a superb explanation of how to use it)! It almost makes me want to do something with this feature.
> 
> On the other hand, I have long used the returns on the "outputs" as a passive mixer (which someone else was asking about). Basically, you use TRS cables [aka return/send cables] that split into separate send and return plugs.
> 
> As the manual shows, the tip is the audio out (send) and the ring is the audio in (return). If you have a snake with 4 TRS connectors on one end and 4 plugs connected to the tips and 4 plugs connected to the rings on the the other end, you can use the the 4 ring plugs (return) to take audio from other gear and route it to the main outs through sub 1 and sub 2. The volume controls on the external gear are use to set your levels.
> 
> Since I don't simultaneously use the sub outs and the returns in this fashion, I am not sure what the implications are. Looking at the output section illustration, I am guessing that you can still use the sub outs (tip plugs) as separate outs while using the returns.
> 
> If you have any plugs in sub1 or sub2 at all, they show up in the MIX OUTPUT parameter menu item. If no plugs are there, the four sends get routed to the main audio outs. If the E-Mu detects a jack of any type in sub1, you >>can<< use send 2 to output audio to sub 1 out. If it detects a jack in sub 2, you >>can<< use send 3 to output audio to sub 2 out. Of course, if you are just doing the passive mixer thing, you can still have send 2 and send 3 going to main out. (See the output section and effects processors illustration.)
> 
> Under no circumstances can you route external audio back into an E-Mu synth to process it with either the effects processors or the P2K synth engine. You'd need an EOS Sampler with specific options installed to be able to do those things.
> 
> Again, great tip about CC79!!
> 
> Steve 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@> wrote:
> >
> > until recently, if i wanted a patch to be routed to a particular 
> > sub-output (send) i would save an edited copy of the patch with "->2" 
> > appended to the patch name so i could tell it's routed to send 2, or 
> > sub-output 1.
> > 
> > of course this consumes a memory location for a patch which is often just 
> > a duplicate patch. not ideal.
> > 
> > better way: leave the "output" parameter alone in the patch. go into the 
> > event editor and create an event for that MIDI channel on CC-79:
> >   Controller 79 is hard-coded to the Mix Output parameter.
> >    0 = Use Preset
> >    1 = Send 1
> >    2 = Send 2
> >    3 = Send 3
> >    4 = Send 4
> > 
> > while looping, create the CC-79 event at tick 002. make sure it works as 
> > desired, then move the event to tick 001 (where it's used to set up the 
> > patch but won't loop).
> > 
> > with different effects (or effect/no-effect), multiple CC-79 messages can 
> > be used to bounce a patch to different effects/sends during different 
> > sections of a loop ;)
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> >          ...atom
> > 
> >   ________________________
> >   http://atom.smasher.org/
> >   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> >   -------------------------------------------------
> > 
> >  	A student once asked me, "Dr. Pauling, how do you go about having
> >  	good ideas?" and I answered, "You have a lot of ideas and you throw
> >  	away the bad ones".
> >  	      -- Linus Pauling
> >
>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, stimresp wrote:

> I haven't tried this tip yet - sounds killer. No glitches or dropouts?
==============

i've only tested it @ tick 001. i haven't tried switching sends mid-loop. 
let us know how it works ;)


> It prompted me to look at the MIDI spec in the manual- there are a few 
> other destinations worth looking at:
>
> - Controller 80 is hard-coded to the Arp Status parameter - 0=Off, 1=On, 2=P (preset), 3=M (master)
> - Controllers 91-96 for FX depth (but why are there 5 for 2 fx processors)?
> -And a few that raise an eybrow - 71 for 'Timbre/Har Inten' , 74 for 'Brightness'
====================

i think 71 & 74 are just filter cutoff & res. the MIDI implementation 
chart looks like it might just respond to CC-71, but it's worth 
experimenting with.

also CC-10 -> pan. i'm using all six outputs of the XL7 as mono sends to 
(six) outboard effects. all sounds are panned hard left or hard right in 
the XL7. at some point i might try using CC-10 (maybe with CC-79) to 
switch how a patch is routed mid-loop. a slightly more pedestrian use 
would be to just control pan with it.

of course CC-7 controls channel volume.

one thing i didn't notice before, and now i have to look into... there are 
foot & pedal controllers; i wonder if they can be used to trigger events 
assigned to the non-midi foot-switches. it would be nice to be able to 
increment/decrement the pattern via MIDI, by emulating pedals.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	KGB = Komitet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosti
 	Translation: Department of Homeland Security

2011/2/9 stimresp <stimresp@...>:
> - Controller 80 is hard-coded to the Arp Status parameter - 0=Off, 1=On, 2=P (preset), 3=M (master)
> - Controllers 91-96 for FX depth (but why are there 5 for 2 fx processors)?
> -And a few that raise an eybrow - 71 for 'Timbre/Har Inten' , 74 for 'Brightness'

Nice, compliant with XG :-)

But... by "hardcoded" you mean that if I set my A and B controllers
(usually mapped to Filter Cutoff and Resonance) to, say, CC 16 & 17, I
can control Filter Cutoff BOTH with CC 16 (because of 16 -> A mapping)
and 74 (always works)?

Cheers,

Bruno

Here is my understanding of the CCs:

Some midi gear has CCs hard coded such that each CC can be used for one and only one thing. For example CC74 might be Filter Cutoff Frequency and CC71 might be Amount of Filter Resonance and you cannot change that. However, with the P2k synth architecture, to can assign different CCs to different knobs (MidiA -> MidiP on 16-controller systems) and then use those CCs (via MidiA -> MidiP as patchcord sources) to control whatever destinations you want.

However, since there are some conventions [standardized assignments], such as CC7 = volume, CC10 = pan, CC1 = modwheel, etc. factory designed presets (and third party presets) tend to use those conventions, although you can change them in your own presets, if you want.

The CCs E-Mu has identified as being hard-coded (CC79 and CC80) are somehow different.

Patchcord sources include (among others): Pitchwheel [PB], Modwheel [CC1], MidiVol [CC7], MidiPan [CC10], and MidiExpr [CC11] all of which can be routed to whatever destination you choose.

You could assign CC79 and CC80 to MidiA -> MidiP, but since they are hard-coded as Mix Output and Arp Status respectively, I just always assumned (1) you don't need to use the knobs like that and (2) if you do, in addition to whatever you route those sources to, they will also >always< affect Mix Output and Arp Status, respectively.

Of course, CC7 seems to always control volume, CC10 seems always to control pan, etc. So the question is, aren't those hard-coded, too? (Does anyone know?)

As for CC91-96 being labelled as FX depth, I believe thats the convention that emerged from the Midi Manufacturers Association, but on P2K-based synths, you can use them for whatever you want if you assign them as controllers.

By the way, I think somone may have asked a little while about about resetting controllers. Evidently with CC120 [All SOunds Off], a value of 0 resets all except volume and pan, while a value of 127 resets all.

Also, having CC74 as "Brightness" [aka Filter Cutoff Frequency] and CC71 as "Timbre/Harmonic Intensity" [aka Filter Resonance] as a convention in P2K-based presets also means compatibility with Roland Sound Canvas based modules. 

However, while they are hard-coded in Sound Canvas Modules [at least they are in my M-GS64], these are not hard-coded in the E-Mu. So if you change MidiA from CC74 to CC16 and MidiB from CC71 to CC17, ONLY CC16 and CC17 will affect Cutoff and Resonance, respectively. [Actually, now that I think about it, I believe I can change CC assignments in my M-GS64 via sysex commands; so maybe they're not really hard-coded, just "difficult-coded."]

Steve



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@...> wrote:

>
> 2011/2/9 stimresp <stimresp@...>:
> > - Controller 80 is hard-coded to the Arp Status parameter - 0=Off, 1=On, 2=P (preset), 3=M (master)
> > - Controllers 91-96 for FX depth (but why are there 5 for 2 fx processors)?
> > -And a few that raise an eybrow - 71 for 'Timbre/Har Inten' , 74 for 'Brightness'
> 
> Nice, compliant with XG :-)
> 
> But... by "hardcoded" you mean that if I set my A and B controllers
> (usually mapped to Filter Cutoff and Resonance) to, say, CC 16 & 17, I
> can control Filter Cutoff BOTH with CC 16 (because of 16 -> A mapping)
> and 74 (always works)?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bruno
>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, steve_the_composer wrote:

> Of course, CC7 seems to always control volume, CC10 seems always to 
> control pan, etc. So the question is, aren't those hard-coded, too? 
> (Does anyone know?)
=================

the only way to know is experiment. BWAHAHAHA!!! (evil mad scientist 
laugh)

"XL-7 can transmit and receive ANY continuous controller number from 1 to 
95. Because of XL-7's powerful synth engine, many of the standard MIDI 
controllers can be user programmed to provide the desired function. A 
'Yes' response in this chart means that a controller is programmed by 
default in XL-7."

default CC/knob assignments:

  knob: default_CC midi_spec_definition {xl7_midi_description} <knob_label>

  A: 74 Sound Controller 5 (Brightness) <filter cutoff>
  B: 71 Sound Controller 2 (Timbre) <filter Q>
  C: 25 Undefined {Filt Attck} <filter attack>
  D: 26 Undefined {Filt Decy} <filter decay>
  E: 73 Sound Controller 4 (Attack Time) <amp attack>
  F: 75 Sound Controller 6 {Decay} <amp decay>
  G: 85 Undefined {Sustain} <amp sustain>
  H: 72 Sound Controller 3 (Release Time) <amp release>
  I: 78 Sound Controller 9 {Vel->amp} <vel-amp>
  J: 77 Sound Controller 8 {Vel->Filt} <vel-filter>
  K: 27 Undefined <lfo2 amount>
  L: 28 Undefined <lfo2 rate>
  M: 01 Modulation wheel <mod 1>
  N: 03 Undefined <mod 2>
  O: 82 General Purpose Controller #7 {Arp Vel} <arp velocity>
  P: 83 General Purpose Controller #8 {Arp Gate} <arp gate>

as you note, one can assign a knob to CC-7 or CC-10, but then volume or 
pan (respectively) would be controlled in addition to any cord settings 
for that knob. at least, i'm pretty sure it would work that way ;)

from the manual, this should make it clear ;)

"Note: Controllers 7 and 10 are already assigned to Volume and Pan for 
each MIDI channel. Controllers 91 & 93 are the standard controller numbers 
for reverb and chorus send amounts, but are not assigned.

"Following are a few of the standardized MIDI Controller numbers as 
defined by the MIDI manufacturers association. The controllers shown in 
Bold (asterisk -atom) are automatically routed to the destination (volume 
& pan) or have their own PatchCord source. Others, such as Portamento 
Time, can be routed using a PatchCord to have the desired effect.

  1*  Modulation Wheel
  2   Breath Controller
  3*  Aftertouch
  4*  Foot Pedal
  5   Portamento Time
  6   Data Entry
  7*  Volume
  8   Balance
  9   Undefined
  10* Pan
  11* Expression"


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
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 	 in the hands of the FBI. And if the FBI requests
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 	 should be directed to Attorney General John Ashcroft,
 	 Department of Justice, Washington, D.C. 20530."
 		-- Sign greeting patrons entering all 10 of
 		the county libraries in Santa Cruz, California

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Atom Smasher wrote:

> "XL-7 can transmit and receive ANY continuous controller number from 1 
> to 95. Because of XL-7's powerful synth engine, many of the standard 
> MIDI controllers can be user programmed to provide the desired function. 
> A 'Yes' response in this chart means that a controller is programmed by 
> default in XL-7."
=======================

how about a list of CC numbers that have a "yes" in the chart... what the 
MIDI spec says about that CC, and whether or not a knob is assigned to it 
by default...

  1 Mod Wheel MSB	{knob M}
  7 Chan Volume MSB
  10 Pan MSB
  11 Expression MSB
  25 {Undefined}		(Filt Attck) {knob C}
  26 {Undefined}		(Filt Decy) {knob D}
  64 Sustain Pedal
  71 Timbre/Har Inten	{knob B}
  75 Sound Cntrlr 6	(Decay)	{knob F}
  77 Sound Cntrlr 8	(Vel->Filt) {knob J}
  78 Sound Cntrlr 9	(Vel->amp) {knob I}
  79 Sound Cntrlr 10	(hard-wired to "Mix Output parameter")
  80 Gen Purp Cntrlr 5	(hard-wired to "Arp Status parameter")
  82 Gen Pur Ctrlr 7	(Arp Vel)	{knob O}
  83 Gen Pur Ctrlr 8	(Arp Gate)	{knob P}
  85 {Undefined}		(Sustain)	{knob G}

also see 0, 120-127, CCs that aren't really "continuous".

so... if there's a "yes" in the chart and the CC is not assigned by 
default to a knob, then i'm thinking it's hard-wired (7, 10, 11, 64, 79, 
80). but if it *is* assigned by default to a knob (1, 25, 26, 71, 75, 77, 
78, 82, 83, 85), is it hard-wired? or just a default setting that can be 
arbitrarily changed?



-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"There's a reason you separate military and the
 	 police. One fights the enemies of the state; the
 	 other serves and protects the people. When the
 	 military becomes both, then the enemies of the
 	 state tend to become the people."
 	      -- Commander William Adama, Battlestar Galactica

This morning (while trying to figure out how to better explain E-Mu's CC funtionality, I came up with thge following:

Some background definitions:
1. Let's say "pre-programmed" CCs are those that have across the board functionality in the P2K-based synth engine. (E-Mu uses this term.)
2. Let's say "standard" CCs are the ones the MMA lists as recommended associations of CCs and functionality.
3. Let's say CC's can have either >>general<< usage (users are free to route those CCs to whatever they want) or specific usage (those CCs always refer to specific functions.

This basically sets up a 2 x 2 table of CCs with 4 categories as follows:

1A: pre-programmed, general usage (6) 
01 = mod wheel
03 = after touch
04 = foot pedal
07 = volume
10 = pan
11 = expression

2A: pre-programmed, specific usage (11)
79 = mix outputs
80 = arp status
120 = all sounds off
121 = reset all controllers
123 = All notes off
0, 32 = bank select
124 -> 127 = mode selectors (if enabled) [onmi on/off, poly on/off]

1B: user definable, general usage (19)
[not pre-programmed, although there are defaults]
MidiA -> MidiP as defined in the Controllers section
FootSwitch 1 -> 3 as defined in the Controllers section

2B: user definable, specific usage (2)
Tempo Up
Tempo Down

Did I miss anything?

Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Atom Smasher wrote:
> 
> > "XL-7 can transmit and receive ANY continuous controller number from 1 
> > to 95. Because of XL-7's powerful synth engine, many of the standard 
> > MIDI controllers can be user programmed to provide the desired function. 
> > A 'Yes' response in this chart means that a controller is programmed by 
> > default in XL-7."
> =======================
> 
> how about a list of CC numbers that have a "yes" in the chart... what the 
> MIDI spec says about that CC, and whether or not a knob is assigned to it 
> by default...
> 
>   1 Mod Wheel MSB	{knob M}
>   7 Chan Volume MSB
>   10 Pan MSB
>   11 Expression MSB
>   25 {Undefined}		(Filt Attck) {knob C}
>   26 {Undefined}		(Filt Decy) {knob D}
>   64 Sustain Pedal
>   71 Timbre/Har Inten	{knob B}
>   75 Sound Cntrlr 6	(Decay)	{knob F}
>   77 Sound Cntrlr 8	(Vel->Filt) {knob J}
>   78 Sound Cntrlr 9	(Vel->amp) {knob I}
>   79 Sound Cntrlr 10	(hard-wired to "Mix Output parameter")
>   80 Gen Purp Cntrlr 5	(hard-wired to "Arp Status parameter")
>   82 Gen Pur Ctrlr 7	(Arp Vel)	{knob O}
>   83 Gen Pur Ctrlr 8	(Arp Gate)	{knob P}
>   85 {Undefined}		(Sustain)	{knob G}
> 
> also see 0, 120-127, CCs that aren't really "continuous".
> 
> so... if there's a "yes" in the chart and the CC is not assigned by 
> default to a knob, then i'm thinking it's hard-wired (7, 10, 11, 64, 79, 
> 80). but if it *is* assigned by default to a knob (1, 25, 26, 71, 75, 77, 
> 78, 82, 83, 85), is it hard-wired? or just a default setting that can be 
> arbitrarily changed?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"There's a reason you separate military and the
>  	 police. One fights the enemies of the state; the
>  	 other serves and protects the people. When the
>  	 military becomes both, then the enemies of the
>  	 state tend to become the people."
>  	      -- Commander William Adama, Battlestar Galactica
>

> 
>So if you change MidiA from CC74 to CC16 and MidiB from CC71 to CC17, ONLY CC16 and CC17 will affect Cutoff and Resonance, respectively.
> 
> Steve
 

From a quick experiment: the default preset chords usually also map Knob A to Filt Freq via the cords menu. By removing that cord mapping (on each layer), MIDI A will no longer control cutoff, EVEN if cc 74 is assigned to MIDI A in the controllers menu. Incoming cc74 is not by default recognized by the CS (confirmed in the manual - MIDI chart). However, if you re-assign midi A to cc74 and re-establish the relevant cord, then the CS WILL recognize incoming cc74.

CCs 7 and 10 (Vol/Pan), however are by default recognized, so by assigning knob A to cc 7 in the controllers menu works, and the CS will also recognize this incoming cc, independent of any cords.

So, if a cc is not by default recognized by the CS, you need to assign that CC to a knob and further map that to a cord to tell that CC what to do...???

Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....


  

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my understanding of the CCs:
> 
> Some midi gear has CCs hard coded such that each CC can be used for one and only one thing. For example CC74 might be Filter Cutoff Frequency and CC71 might be Amount of Filter Resonance and you cannot change that. However, with the P2k synth architecture, to can assign different CCs to different knobs (MidiA -> MidiP on 16-controller systems) and then use those CCs (via MidiA -> MidiP as patchcord sources) to control whatever destinations you want.
> 
> However, since there are some conventions [standardized assignments], such as CC7 = volume, CC10 = pan, CC1 = modwheel, etc. factory designed presets (and third party presets) tend to use those conventions, although you can change them in your own presets, if you want.
> 
> The CCs E-Mu has identified as being hard-coded (CC79 and CC80) are somehow different.
> 
> Patchcord sources include (among others): Pitchwheel [PB], Modwheel [CC1], MidiVol [CC7], MidiPan [CC10], and MidiExpr [CC11] all of which can be routed to whatever destination you choose.
> 
> You could assign CC79 and CC80 to MidiA -> MidiP, but since they are hard-coded as Mix Output and Arp Status respectively, I just always assumned (1) you don't need to use the knobs like that and (2) if you do, in addition to whatever you route those sources to, they will also >always< affect Mix Output and Arp Status, respectively.
> 
> Of course, CC7 seems to always control volume, CC10 seems always to control pan, etc. So the question is, aren't those hard-coded, too? (Does anyone know?)
> 
> As for CC91-96 being labelled as FX depth, I believe thats the convention that emerged from the Midi Manufacturers Association, but on P2K-based synths, you can use them for whatever you want if you assign them as controllers.
> 
> By the way, I think somone may have asked a little while about about resetting controllers. Evidently with CC120 [All SOunds Off], a value of 0 resets all except volume and pan, while a value of 127 resets all.
> 
> Also, having CC74 as "Brightness" [aka Filter Cutoff Frequency] and CC71 as "Timbre/Harmonic Intensity" [aka Filter Resonance] as a convention in P2K-based presets also means compatibility with Roland Sound Canvas based modules. 
> 
> However, while they are hard-coded in Sound Canvas Modules [at least they are in my M-GS64], these are not hard-coded in the E-Mu. So if you change MidiA from CC74 to CC16 and MidiB from CC71 to CC17, ONLY CC16 and CC17 will affect Cutoff and Resonance, respectively. [Actually, now that I think about it, I believe I can change CC assignments in my M-GS64 via sysex commands; so maybe they're not really hard-coded, just "difficult-coded."]
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Bruno <brunorc@> wrote:
> >
> > 2011/2/9 stimresp <stimresp@>:
> > > - Controller 80 is hard-coded to the Arp Status parameter - 0=Off, 1=On, 2=P (preset), 3=M (master)
> > > - Controllers 91-96 for FX depth (but why are there 5 for 2 fx processors)?
> > > -And a few that raise an eybrow - 71 for 'Timbre/Har Inten' , 74 for 'Brightness'
> > 
> > Nice, compliant with XG :-)
> > 
> > But... by "hardcoded" you mean that if I set my A and B controllers
> > (usually mapped to Filter Cutoff and Resonance) to, say, CC 16 & 17, I
> > can control Filter Cutoff BOTH with CC 16 (because of 16 -> A mapping)
> > and 74 (always works)?
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Bruno
> >
>

Just checked the manual again - it;s explained on page 126 - COntroller assignments:

'The front panel Controller Knobs and sixteen MIDI controller numbers share the A-P controller routings. These screens let you select which MIDI real-time controllers numbers will be RECEIVED (from 1 to 31 and from 64 to 95) and which controller numbers will be transmitted over MIDI if the front panel controls are turned.'

So, as I can see, the only way to control e.g. LFO rate from external cc is to assign one knob to the desired cc in the controllers menu, then map that knob to LFO rate in the cords, leaving the cord value at 0. 



--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> This morning (while trying to figure out how to better explain E-Mu's CC funtionality, I came up with thge following:
> 
> Some background definitions:
> 1. Let's say "pre-programmed" CCs are those that have across the board functionality in the P2K-based synth engine. (E-Mu uses this term.)
> 2. Let's say "standard" CCs are the ones the MMA lists as recommended associations of CCs and functionality.
> 3. Let's say CC's can have either >>general<< usage (users are free to route those CCs to whatever they want) or specific usage (those CCs always refer to specific functions.
> 
> This basically sets up a 2 x 2 table of CCs with 4 categories as follows:
> 
> 1A: pre-programmed, general usage (6) 
> 01 = mod wheel
> 03 = after touch
> 04 = foot pedal
> 07 = volume
> 10 = pan
> 11 = expression
> 
> 2A: pre-programmed, specific usage (11)
> 79 = mix outputs
> 80 = arp status
> 120 = all sounds off
> 121 = reset all controllers
> 123 = All notes off
> 0, 32 = bank select
> 124 -> 127 = mode selectors (if enabled) [onmi on/off, poly on/off]
> 
> 1B: user definable, general usage (19)
> [not pre-programmed, although there are defaults]
> MidiA -> MidiP as defined in the Controllers section
> FootSwitch 1 -> 3 as defined in the Controllers section
> 
> 2B: user definable, specific usage (2)
> Tempo Up
> Tempo Down
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> Steve
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Atom Smasher wrote:
> > 
> > > "XL-7 can transmit and receive ANY continuous controller number from 1 
> > > to 95. Because of XL-7's powerful synth engine, many of the standard 
> > > MIDI controllers can be user programmed to provide the desired function. 
> > > A 'Yes' response in this chart means that a controller is programmed by 
> > > default in XL-7."
> > =======================
> > 
> > how about a list of CC numbers that have a "yes" in the chart... what the 
> > MIDI spec says about that CC, and whether or not a knob is assigned to it 
> > by default...
> > 
> >   1 Mod Wheel MSB	{knob M}
> >   7 Chan Volume MSB
> >   10 Pan MSB
> >   11 Expression MSB
> >   25 {Undefined}		(Filt Attck) {knob C}
> >   26 {Undefined}		(Filt Decy) {knob D}
> >   64 Sustain Pedal
> >   71 Timbre/Har Inten	{knob B}
> >   75 Sound Cntrlr 6	(Decay)	{knob F}
> >   77 Sound Cntrlr 8	(Vel->Filt) {knob J}
> >   78 Sound Cntrlr 9	(Vel->amp) {knob I}
> >   79 Sound Cntrlr 10	(hard-wired to "Mix Output parameter")
> >   80 Gen Purp Cntrlr 5	(hard-wired to "Arp Status parameter")
> >   82 Gen Pur Ctrlr 7	(Arp Vel)	{knob O}
> >   83 Gen Pur Ctrlr 8	(Arp Gate)	{knob P}
> >   85 {Undefined}		(Sustain)	{knob G}
> > 
> > also see 0, 120-127, CCs that aren't really "continuous".
> > 
> > so... if there's a "yes" in the chart and the CC is not assigned by 
> > default to a knob, then i'm thinking it's hard-wired (7, 10, 11, 64, 79, 
> > 80). but if it *is* assigned by default to a knob (1, 25, 26, 71, 75, 77, 
> > 78, 82, 83, 85), is it hard-wired? or just a default setting that can be 
> > arbitrarily changed?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> >          ...atom
> > 
> >   ________________________
> >   http://atom.smasher.org/
> >   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
> >   -------------------------------------------------
> > 
> >  	"There's a reason you separate military and the
> >  	 police. One fights the enemies of the state; the
> >  	 other serves and protects the people. When the
> >  	 military becomes both, then the enemies of the
> >  	 state tend to become the people."
> >  	      -- Commander William Adama, Battlestar Galactica
> >
>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, stimresp wrote:

> Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say 
> LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....
===================

sort of. the knobs can be assigned to any CC from (i think) 1-95. the 
defaults are:
   A: 74
   B: 71
   C: 25
   D: 26
   E: 73
   F: 75
   G: 85
   H: 72
   I: 78
   J: 77
   K: 27
   L: 28
   M: 01
   N: 03
   O: 82
   P: 83

so let's say you have a breath controller that sends CC-2, and you want to 
use it to control ~stuff~ on the XL7... go to the controller menu and 
assign one of the knobs to send/receive CC-2. then the breath controller 
will do the same thing as turning the knob.

if that knob is controlling LFO rate (via cords) then the breath 
controller sending CC-2 will modulate LFO rate.

it would be cool if CCs could be arbitrarily used as modulation sources, 
but the p2k/cs synth engine requires that they be assigned to knobs in 
order to be used. note that a multi-setup will save controller assignments ;)


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"Evil men obsessed with ambition and unburdened by
 	 conscience must be taken very seriously, and we
 	 must stop them before their crimes can multiply."
 		-- George "dubya" Bush, 6 Oct 2005

Aaah yes - there's probably no need really to mess with the default knob assignments (except maybe the hardwired 1 and 3) - just set up the desired cord (Midi knob - lfo rate and send the cc assigned to that knob.

Cheers,
J

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, stimresp wrote:
> 
> > Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say 
> > LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....
> ===================
> 
> sort of. the knobs can be assigned to any CC from (i think) 1-95. the 
> defaults are:
>    A: 74
>    B: 71
>    C: 25
>    D: 26
>    E: 73
>    F: 75
>    G: 85
>    H: 72
>    I: 78
>    J: 77
>    K: 27
>    L: 28
>    M: 01
>    N: 03
>    O: 82
>    P: 83
> 
> so let's say you have a breath controller that sends CC-2, and you want to 
> use it to control ~stuff~ on the XL7... go to the controller menu and 
> assign one of the knobs to send/receive CC-2. then the breath controller 
> will do the same thing as turning the knob.
> 
> if that knob is controlling LFO rate (via cords) then the breath 
> controller sending CC-2 will modulate LFO rate.
> 
> it would be cool if CCs could be arbitrarily used as modulation sources, 
> but the p2k/cs synth engine requires that they be assigned to knobs in 
> order to be used. note that a multi-setup will save controller assignments ;)
> 
> 
> -- 
>          ...atom
> 
>   ________________________
>   http://atom.smasher.org/
>   762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
>   -------------------------------------------------
> 
>  	"Evil men obsessed with ambition and unburdened by
>  	 conscience must be taken very seriously, and we
>  	 must stop them before their crimes can multiply."
>  		-- George "dubya" Bush, 6 Oct 2005
>

From you experiemtn, it sounds like you are developing a good understanding of the relationship between incoming and internally generated CCs and patchcords. See comments below.

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "stimresp" <stimresp@...> wrote:

[snip]

> So, if a cc is not by default recognized by the CS, you need to assign that CC to a knob and further map that to a cord to tell that CC what to do...???

In a word, yes. That's the price of flexibility--it is a two stepped process: 
(1) Under Controllers, assign a CC number to a definable patchcord source if it is not pre-programmed (mainly Midi A->MidiP and Footswitches) or you don't want to use the default CC numbers and then (2) use that source to do whatever you want in the patchcords. 

Let me add something that you may already: If MidiA is defined as CC 74, then i't doesn't matter if the CC vales are coming from the knob marked MidiA or through an externally connected source.

One of the things that helped me understand my E-Mu is when I started thinking of it in terms of separate systems. For example, the 4x4 knobs are midi controllers--just as if they were externally connected. Here's another example, if you use the 16 buttons as note triggers to latch arps on and off, think of them as midi controllers--just as if they were externally connected.  

> Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....

To me this is more direct than having to use sysex commands to map CCs to specific modulation sources as in some other gear. I am trying to think of more direct approaches--such as gear that has a table of CC and you can assign a function to each CC, or the converse, gear that has a table of functions and you can assign a CC (or several CCs, I suppose) to each. I suppose if I had gear like that and I didn't have to use sysex commands to change the assignments, I'd make use of it.

I guess I am so happy that I have midi knobs and buttons built into a box with a synth engine with virtual patchcords and a sequencer to boot, that it never dawned on me befor now that it could be simpler (such as with the use of direct CC mapping). I don't know why the OS dosn't have CC numbers as sources, but I am gonna take a guess. Maybe if it did, you'd only be able to use that function to map externally generated midi; you couldn't use the knobs, for example, without assigning them to CCs. That's just a guess, and I am also guessing that because these boxes were designed as all-in-one sound work stations stations with built-in controllers (as opposed to sound modules dependent on external controllers), the developers wanted to maximize the flexibility of the built-in controllers. If I am right, that would seem to dictate the use of the two-step process over a direct map. Again, I am just thinking out loud here. You raised an interesting topic.

It sounds like you have it down! 

The main reason I would change defaults is to coordinate things with other gear I control with an external usb/midi controller--either (1) to avoid having two sound modules controlled by one knob or fader, or (2) to deliberately have more than one sound module controlled by one knob or fader.

Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "stimresp" <stimresp@...> wrote:

>
> Aaah yes - there's probably no need really to mess with the default knob assignments (except maybe the hardwired 1 and 3) - just set up the desired cord (Midi knob - lfo rate and send the cc assigned to that knob.
> 
> Cheers,
> J

Just a footnote: I am not sure if it was OS2.0 or an earlier OS, but somewhere along the line the range of acceptable CCs was expanded to go from 1 to 119.
Steve

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, stimresp wrote:
> 
> > Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say 
> > LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....
> ===================
> 
> sort of. the knobs can be assigned to any CC from (i think) 1-95.

On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, steve_the_composer wrote:

> Just a footnote: I am not sure if it was OS2.0 or an earlier OS, but 
> somewhere along the line the range of acceptable CCs was expanded to go 
> from 1 to 119. Steve
=================

that would make sense, since 120-127 are somewhat special.


> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@...> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, stimresp wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, 
>>> say LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....
>> ===================
>>
>> sort of. the knobs can be assigned to any CC from (i think) 1-95.


-- 
         ...atom

  ________________________
  http://atom.smasher.org/
  762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808
  -------------------------------------------------

 	"It is estimated that we spend $322,000 for each enemy we
 	 kill, while we spend in the so-called war on poverty in
 	 America only about $53 for each person classified as
 	 'poor'. And much of that $53 goes for salaries of people
 	 who are not poor. We have escalated the war in Viet Nam
 	 and de-escalated the skirmish against poverty. It
 	 challenges the imagination to contemplate what lives we
 	 could transform if we were to cease killing."
 		-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 		The Casualties of the War in Vietnam,
 		25 February 1967

Great stuff. It's all coming clear now.

Cheers!


--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> From you experiemtn, it sounds like you are developing a good understanding of the relationship between incoming and internally generated CCs and patchcords. See comments below.
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "stimresp" <stimresp@> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > So, if a cc is not by default recognized by the CS, you need to assign that CC to a knob and further map that to a cord to tell that CC what to do...???
> 
> In a word, yes. That's the price of flexibility--it is a two stepped process: 
> (1) Under Controllers, assign a CC number to a definable patchcord source if it is not pre-programmed (mainly Midi A->MidiP and Footswitches) or you don't want to use the default CC numbers and then (2) use that source to do whatever you want in the patchcords. 
> 
> Let me add something that you may already: If MidiA is defined as CC 74, then i't doesn't matter if the CC vales are coming from the knob marked MidiA or through an externally connected source.
> 
> One of the things that helped me understand my E-Mu is when I started thinking of it in terms of separate systems. For example, the 4x4 knobs are midi controllers--just as if they were externally connected. Here's another example, if you use the 16 buttons as note triggers to latch arps on and off, think of them as midi controllers--just as if they were externally connected.  
> 
> > Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....
> 
> To me this is more direct than having to use sysex commands to map CCs to specific modulation sources as in some other gear. I am trying to think of more direct approaches--such as gear that has a table of CC and you can assign a function to each CC, or the converse, gear that has a table of functions and you can assign a CC (or several CCs, I suppose) to each. I suppose if I had gear like that and I didn't have to use sysex commands to change the assignments, I'd make use of it.
> 
> I guess I am so happy that I have midi knobs and buttons built into a box with a synth engine with virtual patchcords and a sequencer to boot, that it never dawned on me befor now that it could be simpler (such as with the use of direct CC mapping). I don't know why the OS dosn't have CC numbers as sources, but I am gonna take a guess. Maybe if it did, you'd only be able to use that function to map externally generated midi; you couldn't use the knobs, for example, without assigning them to CCs. That's just a guess, and I am also guessing that because these boxes were designed as all-in-one sound work stations stations with built-in controllers (as opposed to sound modules dependent on external controllers), the developers wanted to maximize the flexibility of the built-in controllers. If I am right, that would seem to dictate the use of the two-step process over a direct map. Again, I am just thinking out loud here. You raised an interesting topic.
>

Another footnote: OS1.31 expanded the CC range from 1-95 to 1-119. (from the OS1.31 addendum) 

--- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> Just a footnote: I am not sure if it was OS2.0 or an earlier OS, but somewhere along the line the range of acceptable CCs was expanded to go from 1 to 119.
> Steve
> 
> --- In xl7@yahoogroups.com, Atom Smasher <atom@> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, stimresp wrote:
> > 
> > > Is there a more direct way? What if I want to map an incoming cc to, say 
> > > LFO rate? MIDI CCs are not modulation sources in the matrix....
> > ===================
> > 
> > sort of. the knobs can be assigned to any CC from (i think) 1-95.
>