Casio CZ/ VZ/ FZ - Pro Series

Summa- I do have a Scanner- It's in a box in my closet.
I could get it out & fire it up I suppose.

I think the manual has about 80 pages of so (can't remember off 
the top of my head). I assume you're not in the United States- so 
I couldn't just mail it to you (I'm willing to do that if you're in the 
states)- so you can use the info in your tutorial. 
   Alternatively ---I'll see what I can do about scanning the pages 
that relate to the algorihm diagrams/ specifics- would that be OK 
?
-PS- I did a Sound diver dump (actually had to dump from the VZ 
front panel to sound diver VZ10m profile) of the voices in my 
VZ8m last weekend- so I can post those this week on a page I'll 
create for the VZ on my website (I prefer to host the sounds there 
to have some traffic on my site).

My memory tells me I got the FM info from a Howard Massey (NY 
FM Guru from the 80's) FM programming book. I'm pretty sure the 
release date of the TX81z being in 1987 does not mean it is 16 
bit- because it is a rack version of a DX11 (and all the 4 operator 
Yamaha synths were 12 bit - except the FB-01 which was 10bit).
My apologies for mis-spelling John Chowning's name in the last 
email (I prefer a 12 tone to a QWERTY keyboard).

Todd :)

--- In CZsynth@y..., Summa <flotorian@y...> wrote:
> 
> I don't have the manual, do you have access to scanner, would 
be nice to
> have at least the part that answers some questions about 
sound programming
> or the possible connections of the oscillators... 
> I called the Casio support, they wanted to send me a letter 
wether they have
> a copy of the manual avaiable or not, but that was about 3 
month ago, so I'm
> not very optimistic about that...  
sounds... 
> 
> >Summa- I'm a bit surprised that you present different info on 
the DAC 
> >resolution of the DX series. I pride myself on providing uesful 
and 
> >accurate information. If i'm wrong, I'd sure like to know.
> >
> >Can you confirm your source of the TX81z being 16 bit ?
> 
> My source is the german Keys magazine, issue 2/98 FM 
special, they had a
> table with all FM synths, with the bit depth for almost every FM 
synth
> except SY22 and TG33... I also checked DX7II/11/81z articles 
from 1987 I
> found in the german Keyboards magazine, but they only 
confirmed that those
> new generation of Yamaha Synths have better converters but 
not mentioned the

> bit depth...
> 
> Summa

Todd wrote:

"I did a Sound diver dump (actually had to dump from the VZ front panel to
sound diver VZ10m profile) of the voices in my
VZ8m last weekend"

So, there's no problem with using the VZ10m profile with a VZ8m?  Jest
curious, 'cause my VZ8m arrives on Wednesday!

-- Jeremy

Jeremy,

      Sorry- but there's definitely a problem.. (I have to agree with 
Summa when he said Sound Diver has SOME bugs in just about 
every profile- that has been my experience thus far as well).

The profile is for a VZ10m and the VZ8m has a few different 
parameters (like pan)- and some built in ROM banks (presets) 
that the VZ10m doesn't have- I'm not sure if this adaptation of 
Sound Diver can handle that. 
I haven't edited with SoundDiver (just front panel on my old 
VZ10m and with UNISYN on a Mac- which worked quite well).
But I have seen Sound Diver CHOKE when it requests a simple 
voice from the VZ8m (that's Sound Diver 3.04 on a Mac).

Todd :)

--- In CZsynth@y..., "jwp" <forms@s...> wrote:
> Todd wrote:
> 
> "I did a Sound diver dump (actually had to dump from the VZ 
front panel to
> sound diver VZ10m profile) of the voices in my
> VZ8m last weekend"
> 
> So, there's no problem with using the VZ10m profile with a 
VZ8m?  Jest

> curious, 'cause my VZ8m arrives on Wednesday!
> 
> -- Jeremy

Hi Todd,

>I think the manual has about 80 pages of so (can't remember off 

I can imagine how much work it is to scan 80 pages, I already did this with
the nearly 70 pages of the german CZ-1 manual...

>the top of my head). I assume you're not in the United States- so 
>I couldn't just mail it to you (I'm willing to do that if you're in the 
>states)- so you can use the info in your tutorial.

I don't know what's the price for shipping the manual... so if it isn't too
much I would pay for the transport...

>   Alternatively ---I'll see what I can do about scanning the pages 
>that relate to the algorihm diagrams/ specifics- would that be OK  

Since I have a VZ-1 not the VZ8m so I think in my case those pages would be
the important parts of that manual... 

>-PS- I did a Sound diver dump (actually had to dump from the VZ 
>front panel to sound diver VZ10m profile) of the voices in my 
>VZ8m last weekend- so I can post those this week on a page I'll 
>create for the VZ on my website (I prefer to host the sounds there 
>to have some traffic on my site).

When you're ready please add the URL to the bookmarks of the list and post
it into the list... 

>My memory tells me I got the FM info from a Howard Massey (NY 
>FM Guru from the 80's) FM programming book. I'm pretty sure the 
>release date of the TX81z being in 1987 does not mean it is 16 
>bit- because it is a rack version of a DX11 (and all the 4 operator 
>Yamaha synths were 12 bit - except the FB-01 which was 10bit).

This is strange, since DX7, DX9(4OP)and  DX21 (4OP) etc. should be 10 Bit
too I at least remember the DX9 to be quite "noisy"... anyway there seems to
be lots of different informations about this... 
Also my MT32 with bad converter sounds more crispy then the D110 with better
converters... sometimes lower sampling rates and lower bitrate can create
wanted sound quality... think of the PPG with it's 12 Bit converers and 8
Bit wavetables... 
It's also known that for instance the 90s SY77/99 synth creates less alising
and sound less agressive then the older Yamaha FM synths... 
Other then that it's the TX81z probably has, as all 4OP synths, a higher
modulation index as the 6Op (or the 8OP FS1R) ones so it might be worth a
try to couple some modulators to recreate that behaviour on the VZ-1...

>My apologies for mis-spelling John Chowning's name in the last 
>email (I prefer a 12 tone to a QWERTY keyboard).

I haven't even noticed it...

Summa


			     
           +                        
           +                       
           +     /\      /\         
        /\ +  /\/  \    /  \        
+++++++/++\++/++++++\++/+++ \    /\  /\         /    O   
      /    \/        \/      \  /  \/  \ |   | /     |  /----
 /\  /     +                  \/        \\---/ ----  |  |
/  \/      +                  /\                  /     \----
           +                 /  \                / 
           +                 Nicknames  : Summa or SumGhost
           +                 AIM        : Flotorian
           +                 Born       : 1967
           +                 Profession : Student of Computer Science
           +	                     

A Touch of Future - Project : http://www.mp3.com/AToF/
Casio CZ Synth Station      : http://www.mp3.com/stations/CZ/ 
CZ/VZ Mailinglist           : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth

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Summa wrote:

"It's also known that for instance the 90s SY77/99 synth creates less
alising and sound less agressive then the older Yamaha FM synths..."

Given that, why do you suppose that the SY99 has become something of a fad
collectors' item lately?  I was interested in purchasing one (chose the FS1R
instead), but was surprised to find them going for $900-$1000, and the local
stores told me they never get used ones in.  At one point, I was negotiating
with one guy who probably wanted more than $1,000 for his as he had maxed
out the internal sample RAM, and had all the impossible-to-find cards for
it...

All that for a synth with weaker FM than the norm?

-- Jeremy

At 15:59 11.06.01 -0700, you wrote:
>Summa wrote:
>
>"It's also known that for instance the 90s SY77/99 synth creates less
>alising and sound less agressive then the older Yamaha FM synths..."
>
>Given that, why do you suppose that the SY99 has become something of a fad

I don't know maybe because of it's sampling ability or they're possibly
rare... as far as I remember they haven't been sold as well as the other FM
synths...

>collectors' item lately?  I was interested in purchasing one (chose the FS1R
>instead), but was surprised to find them going for $900-$1000, and the local

I know that you get a used TG77 for about 700-800DM over here... 

>stores told me they never get used ones in.  At one point, I was negotiating
>with one guy who probably wanted more than $1,000 for his as he had maxed
>out the internal sample RAM, and had all the impossible-to-find cards for
>it...
>
>All that for a synth with weaker FM than the norm?

Less agressive don't necessarely means that they sound weaker...  just
different... as I mentioned before, it's (at least for my ears) probably
hard for a synth to sound as agressive/harsh as the old FM synths...

Summa

 

			     
           +                        
           +                       
           +     /\      /\         
        /\ +  /\/  \    /  \        
+++++++/++\++/++++++\++/+++ \    /\  /\         /    O   
      /    \/        \/      \  /  \/  \ |   | /     |  /----
 /\  /     +                  \/        \\---/ ----  |  |
/  \/      +                  /\                  /     \----
           +                 /  \                / 
           +                 Nicknames  : Summa or SumGhost
           +                 AIM        : Flotorian
           +                 Born       : 1967
           +                 Profession : Student of Computer Science
           +	                     

A Touch of Future - Project : http://www.mp3.com/AToF/
Casio CZ Synth Station      : http://www.mp3.com/stations/CZ/ 
CZ/VZ Mailinglist           : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CZsynth

Boycott the Premium Artist Service!!!


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Well, I've got a TG77, the rack version of the SY77.  I must say with all the cheesy lame sample playback "synthesizers" (if you can really call them that without grimacing) that get forced down our throats by the marketing departments, they still don't compare to the possibilities of something like the TG77 or any other "real" synthesizer.  A JV1080 sounds like a JV1080, whereas an FM or iPD synth sounds like just about whatever you want it to if you've got your skills in order.  I think people probably just don't want to be stuck with the sounds that their synth came with.  Not to mention, the action and quality of the keys on the SY boards is incredible.  Another thing that contributes to the longevity of Yamaha products, strangely enough, is the freely available manual library and vast amount of knowledge on the web regarding their products.

I also have a TX81Z, so I'm familiar with the "FM bite".  I must admit that it's probably the best deal on a synth that I've ever seen and am ever likely to see... I picked it up for 40 bucks used, and it's where I learned all the basics.  It does some really cool things, and the basses and strings on it are great IMHO.  I play around with Yamedit to randomize patches so I get really great freakazoid sounds.

But the TX81Z can't hold a candle to the incredible evolving pad sounds of the SY/TG77.   The 77 is far from weaker, having 6 operators instead of 4, 32 note poly instead of 8, and being 16 part multi.  I'll freely admit that the stock sounds of the 77 are weaker, thanks to piss-poor programming on the part of Yamaha.  It is a bit more complicated, so it takes longer to master, but once you know it, you can do anything on the 77 that you can do with the 81Z.  The two units are a nice compliment to each other.  If I had the cash lying around I'd jump at the chance to get an FS1R.  But if you get everything you want, then what have you to look forward to?  I think I can wait until I've mastered everything about my current gear though... and by then maybe people will have forgotten how cool the FS1R is and I can get one cheaper than dirt.

Now that my VZ-8M has arrived (today), and I've had a chance to browse the preset patches, I must say that it will be the perfect compliment to the sounds I already have.  I can't really put my describe where Yamaha FM is weak compared to Casio iPD (especially since it's all subjective based on the application), but they do fit together nicely.

Sure, the older digital synths don't have that depth of sound you can get with the DSP effect processors of the newer gear, but that's why you get an effects module... and then the playing ground is level.  You think the TG77 doesn't have enough "bite"?  Well, send it through an overdrive or light distortion, it'll bite your head off.

I just can't wait to mad scientist the heck out of this VZ8m....

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Summa 
  To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:34 PM
  Subject: RE: [CZsynth] Re: VZ8m Manual & FM Bit resolutions


  At 15:59 11.06.01 -0700, you wrote:
  >Summa wrote:
  >
  >"It's also known that for instance the 90s SY77/99 synth creates less
  >alising and sound less agressive then the older Yamaha FM synths..."
  >
  >Given that, why do you suppose that the SY99 has become something of a fad

  I don't know maybe because of it's sampling ability or they're possibly
  rare... as far as I remember they haven't been sold as well as the other FM
  synths...

  >collectors' item lately?  I was interested in purchasing one (chose the FS1R
  >instead), but was surprised to find them going for $900-$1000, and the local

  I know that you get a used TG77 for about 700-800DM over here... 

  >stores told me they never get used ones in.  At one point, I was negotiating
  >with one guy who probably wanted more than $1,000 for his as he had maxed
  >out the internal sample RAM, and had all the impossible-to-find cards for
  >it...
  >
  >All that for a synth with weaker FM than the norm?

  Less agressive don't necessarely means that they sound weaker...  just
  different... as I mentioned before, it's (at least for my ears) probably
  hard for a synth to sound as agressive/harsh as the old FM synths...

  Summa



                         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"So, there's no problem with using the VZ10m profile with a VZ8m?
Jest
	curious, 'cause my VZ8m arrives on Wednesday!"

	At some level this isn't going to work, the VZ-8m has more
parameters than the VZ-1/10 so using a profile for a 1/10 isn't going to
allow you to edit the extra parameters(including all that cool stereo stuff
that the 8m does that the 1/10 doesn't). Also I think, its been a while
since I looked, that the VZ-8m has more RAM than the 1/10, so a 1/10 profile
probably won't be able to send patches to the extra RAM locations. You're
probably better off using an 8m profle with a 1/10 than the other way
around.

	Jon

what's a fair street price for a VZ8m?

Max

Here in the states I would say somewhere between $100 and $200. Anything
less than $100 for a unit is good working order is an automatic purchase!

	-----Original Message-----
	From:	Maxim Potekhin [SMTP:maxim.potekhin@...]
	Sent:	Tuesday, June 12, 2001 8:36 AM
	To:	CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
	Subject:	Re: [CZsynth] Re: VZ8m Manual & FM Bit resolutions

	what's a fair street price for a VZ8m?

	Max

	To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
	CZsynth-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

	 

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tspeer@... wrote:

> The exitement over the User Sample playback quickly
> diminished once you realized how little memory you acyually
> had.

You mean you could play back WAV? How much memory was there?

"SY99 features five expansion slots which allow the size of the MDR / sample
RAM area to be expanded to a maximum of 3 MB using optional expansion memory
boards SYEMB05. Each expansion memory board adds 512 kB to the amount of MDR
/ sample memory available."

Full stats on the SY99 are available here:

http://www.instrumenty.pl/sy99/

The big problem with buying one used is that you had better make sure the
owner has stocked it with SYEMB05 RAM cards, otherwise you're screwed
(sampling wise).  Those RAM cards are very difficult to find.

Even more so with the Yamaha TG-500 (rack version of the SY99) -- without
the RAM cards, there's no way to use your own samples; no MIDI or SCSI
sample dump option exists.

-- Jeremy

-----Original Message-----
From: maxim@... [mailto:maxim@...]On Behalf Of Maxim Potekhin
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:48 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Re: VZ8m Manual & FM Bit resolutions


tspeer@... wrote:

> The exitement over the User Sample playback quickly
> diminished once you realized how little memory you acyually
> had.

You mean you could play back WAV? How much memory was there?

jwp wrote:

> Even more so with the Yamaha TG-500 (rack version of the SY99) --
> without
> the RAM cards, there's no way to use your own samples; no MIDI or SCSI
> sample dump option exists.

So can I use the floopy on SY77 to import WAV?

What about TG77?

Max

I beleive the SY99 (NOT the TG77 and SY77) had the sample 
Ram capability. I don''t think ths TG500 had FM (just Sample 
Playback).

Todd S.


--- In CZsynth@y..., Maxim Potekhin <maxim.potekhin@m...> 
wrote:
> jwp wrote:
> 
> > Even more so with the Yamaha TG-500 (rack version of the 
SY99) --
> > without
> > the RAM cards, there's no way to use your own samples; no 
MIDI or SCSI

> > sample dump option exists.
> 
> So can I use the floopy on SY77 to import WAV?
> 
> What about TG77?
> 
> Max

tspeer@... wrote:
> 
> I beleive the SY99 (NOT the TG77 and SY77) had the sample
> Ram capability. I don''t think ths TG500 had FM (just Sample
> Playback).

I was looking at a SY99 today, it's I think 450 UK pounds.
Should probably demo it, just for fun.

Max

Max asked:

"So can I use the floopy on SY77 to import WAV?  What about TG77?"

I don't think so; I think this is supposed to be one of the improvements of
SY99 over SY77; user-loadable samples.  I think on the SY/TG77, you're stuck
with the built-in AWMs.  The effects are supposed to be better on the SY99,
as well.

-- Jeremy

From the availble info it seems you are right.
So, the SY99 can load *.wav, right?

jwp wrote:

> 
> Max asked:
> 
> "So can I use the floopy on SY77 to import WAV?  What about TG77?"
> 
> I don't think so; I think this is supposed to be one of the
> improvements of
> SY99 over SY77; user-loadable samples.

Max asked:

"So, the SY99 can load *.wav, right?"

Actually, I don't know what sample formats it supports, or what mechanics it
uses to load 'em.  I've never seen one in person!

-- Jeremy

At 01:34 AM 06/12/2001 +0200, you wrote(re: SY99's)
>I don't know maybe because of it's sampling ability or they're possibly
>rare... as far as I remember they haven't been sold as well as the other FM
>synths...

Although there's little difference in the AFM/PCM sections with the notable 
difference of being able to use your own samples as operators (which is 
very difficult to make useful), there's

a few of the great things about them:
----------------------------------------------
*Much* better effects section.  Lots more modulation possibilities (I 
forget which Yamaha reverb it's the equivalent of.)  However, the SY99 has 
to "translate" patches from the SY /TG 77 because the effects are so 
different, and it doesn't do a great job.  (Get Soundiver.)
-
76 keys feel great - very solid (described as "semi-weighted", but really 
nothing like a weighted keyboard, very "synthy").

Very basic master controller features - 4 zones w/midi filtering.

You get an extra mod wheel - 1 pitch, 1 mod, 1 assignable mod.  Breath 
control input, assignable footswitch, assignable pedal (and
master volume.  Data entry slider is assignable too, I think.

Respectable sequencer.  Not the easiest to use, but nice.

Basic midi data filer - save/dump patches from other synths.

Built like a tank.  Nice metal chassis.  Be careful lifting it, never drop it!

A few not so great things:
----------------------------------------------------
You're stuck with a 720K drive.  There was a company called "Megafloppy" 
that sold a retrofit hardrive that emulated a floppy drive, but I think 
they're out of business.

Only 1 midi in/out/thru - woulda made a much better controller otherwise.

In my experience learning to use the sequencer was a little maddening.

To me , it's more than a "fadish" keyboard, it's a classic.  If you can 
find one in good shape with the LCD backlight still working and the sample 
memory, for a fair price, I doubt you'll regret it.  It takes up a fair 
amount of room, but even if you get tired of the synth it's still a better 
controller than a lot of keys you'll find.

--- Francis

If memory serves- it accept SDS via Midi (Sample Dump 
Standard)- Can anyone confirm this ?

Todd S.

--- In CZsynth@y..., "jwp" <forms@s...> wrote:
> Max asked:
> 
> "So, the SY99 can load *.wav, right?"
> 
> Actually, I don't know what sample formats it supports, or what 
mechanics it

> uses to load 'em.  I've never seen one in person!
> 
> -- Jeremy

Yes it does.  The SY99 has its own sample format. (.W??, different than the 
TX16W, of course being 16 bit rather than 12.  You can import TX16W samples 
but it doesn't save you any memory).   The sample format converter "Awave" 
will convert to and from them.  Now that I think of it, I'm not positive 
whether or not it can use .wav files.

At 02:00 PM 06/13/2001 +0000, you wrote:

>If memory serves- it accept SDS via Midi (Sample Dump
>Standard)- Can anyone confirm this ?
>
>Todd S.
>
>--- In CZsynth@y..., "jwp" <forms@s...> wrote:
> > Max asked:
> >
> > "So, the SY99 can load *.wav, right?"
> >
> > Actually, I don't know what sample formats it supports, or what
>mechanics it
> > uses to load 'em.  I've never seen one in person!
> >
> > -- Jeremy
>
>
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