Casio CZ/ VZ/ FZ - Pro Series

Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?

Joaquim

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@...> wrote:
>
> Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?
> 
> Joaquim


So, when you play the built-in demo on the DM5, it is 'quiet' too?  I'm guessing it's the Alesis DM5 drum machine you are talking about.  It's a drum module, so a note-off message makes sense.  I'd look at its volume settings and how you are amplifying it.  A soft drum-machine just doesn't 'sound' right to me.  You know this is designed to be used with an electronic drum kit, right?  Maybe it's a MIDI velocity setting that's in need of adjustment.  I don't have one, so I'm just throwing out ideas here.  ---Charles J

Years ago, I linked a CZ-5000 from a Korg DDD-5 drum machine. I don't recall if the Korg also sent out note off messages immediately or not (and I know nothing about the Alesis DM5).  However, here are two things I did--just in case you want to experiment.

(1) DDD-5 pattern --> CZ - metalic sound patch.
Basically I played a pattern to trigger a metalic [short, percussive] patch. The audio of the drum patterns also sounded.

(2) CZ keyboard --> DDD-5 in record mode.
Here I played block chords into the electronic drums in record mode. This triggered the audio of the drums. The pattern was looped, so each time it recycled both the old drum notes and the new drum notes were played. I also had the CZ sound playing realtime, the DDD-5 di NOT trigger the CZ sounds, so only the drums increased in complexity each time through the loop. 

If you are using a computer or a midi interface with programmability, you might be able to filter the note off messages (if that's what you want to do). Occoassionally you will find on e-bay modules that might have that capability--not sure if Anatek's Pocket Filter can be set to filter out note offs.

Without testing I am not sure if note off totally shuts the note off or if the release part of the envelope keeps sounding. (I'd guess the former, but if not perhaps you could adjust the envelope.)

Maybe someone with a DM5 has some thoughts. Hope the above helps.

--Steve

 

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@...> wrote:

>
> Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?
> 
> Joaquim
>

AHA!!! I think I just remembered!!!! 

The non-velocity sensitive CZs output velocity as 64, if I remember correctly. If I am right and you are using the CZ to trigger drum hits, you are only getting vel = 64. 

Again, if I am right, you might be able to change the velocity scaling on the drum machine so that all notes are triggered at max volume. Another option would be to use software or hardware to re-map the velocity.

Hope this helps.

--Steve


--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "charles5900@..." <charles_jones78757@...> wrote:

>
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@> wrote:
> >
> > Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?
> > 
> > Joaquim
> 
> 
> So, when you play the built-in demo on the DM5, it is 'quiet' too?  I'm guessing it's the Alesis DM5 drum machine you are talking about.  It's a drum module, so a note-off message makes sense.  I'd look at its volume settings and how you are amplifying it.  A soft drum-machine just doesn't 'sound' right to me.  You know this is designed to be used with an electronic drum kit, right?  Maybe it's a MIDI velocity setting that's in need of adjustment.  I don't have one, so I'm just throwing out ideas here.  ---Charles J
>

BUT WAIT!!!! You are using a CZ-1 which DOES output velocity from 1-127. Hmmmmmmmmmm. 

And if the problem is that the CZ-1 volume is low when triggered by the drum machine, that is a totally different problem. (Does the DM5 output velocity to 127?)

--Steve

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> AHA!!! I think I just remembered!!!! 
> 
> The non-velocity sensitive CZs output velocity as 64, if I remember correctly. If I am right and you are using the CZ to trigger drum hits, you are only getting vel = 64. 
> 
> Again, if I am right, you might be able to change the velocity scaling on the drum machine so that all notes are triggered at max volume. Another option would be to use software or hardware to re-map the velocity.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> --Steve
> 
> 
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "charles5900@" <charles_jones78757@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?
> > > 
> > > Joaquim
> > 
> > 
> > So, when you play the built-in demo on the DM5, it is 'quiet' too?  I'm guessing it's the Alesis DM5 drum machine you are talking about.  It's a drum module, so a note-off message makes sense.  I'd look at its volume settings and how you are amplifying it.  A soft drum-machine just doesn't 'sound' right to me.  You know this is designed to be used with an electronic drum kit, right?  Maybe it's a MIDI velocity setting that's in need of adjustment.  I don't have one, so I'm just throwing out ideas here.  ---Charles J
> >
>

Well, you can try if you turn off velocity for the sound, afterwards 
the level shouldn't change at all.

On 8 Mar 2009 at 17:33, steve_the_composer wrote:

> BUT WAIT!!!! You are using a CZ-1 which DOES output velocity from
> 1-127. Hmmmmmmmmmm. 
> 
> And if the problem is that the CZ-1 volume is low when triggered by
> the drum machine, that is a totally different problem. (Does the DM5
> output velocity to 127?)
> 
> --Steve
> 
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...>
> wrote: > > AHA!!! I think I just remembered!!!! > > The non-velocity
> sensitive CZs output velocity as 64, if I remember correctly. If I am
> right and you are using the CZ to trigger drum hits, you are only
> getting vel = 64. > > Again, if I am right, you might be able to
> change the velocity scaling on the drum machine so that all notes are
> triggered at max volume. Another option would be to use software or
> hardware to re-map the velocity. > > Hope this helps. > > --Steve > >
> > --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "charles5900@" <charles_jones78757@>
> wrote: > > > > --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@>
> wrote: > > > > > > Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be
> fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from
> the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after
> the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a
> solution? > > > > > > Joaquim > > > > > > So, when you play the
> built-in demo on the DM5, it is 'quiet' too?  I'm guessing it's the
> Alesis DM5 drum machine you are talking about.  It's a drum module, so
> a note-off message makes sense.  I'd look at its volume settings and
> how you are amplifying it.  A soft drum-machine just doesn't 'sound'
> right to me.  You know this is designed to be used with an electronic
> drum kit, right?  Maybe it's a MIDI velocity setting that's in need of
> adjustment.  I don't have one, so I'm just throwing out ideas here. 
> ---Charles J > > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 


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http://www.summasounds.de/

Howdy,

 If you are using the DM-5 as a controller to trigger notes on the CZ, you are going to have to go into the envelopes of the sound you are triggering and use step 2 as the sustain point, which will be VERY short. Then you can use the remaining envelope steps to extend out the length of the note. you have to change the numbers at least 1 for the envelope step to be allowed. In the DCA envelope, that is where you will be able to pick up more volume. Also, you will benefit by going into the CZ-1 velocity response and disabling it if possible, then set all note response to 127
rig

 --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> BUT WAIT!!!! You are using a CZ-1 which DOES output velocity from 1-127. Hmmmmmmmmmm. 
> 
> And if the problem is that the CZ-1 volume is low when triggered by the drum machine, that is a totally different problem. (Does the DM5 output velocity to 127?)
> 
> --Steve
> 
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@> wrote:
> >
> > AHA!!! I think I just remembered!!!! 
> > 
> > The non-velocity sensitive CZs output velocity as 64, if I remember correctly. If I am right and you are using the CZ to trigger drum hits, you are only getting vel = 64. 
> > 
> > Again, if I am right, you might be able to change the velocity scaling on the drum machine so that all notes are triggered at max volume. Another option would be to use software or hardware to re-map the velocity.
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > 
> > --Steve
> > 
> > 
> > --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "charles5900@" <charles_jones78757@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?
> > > > 
> > > > Joaquim
> > > 
> > > 
> > > So, when you play the built-in demo on the DM5, it is 'quiet' too?  I'm guessing it's the Alesis DM5 drum machine you are talking about.  It's a drum module, so a note-off message makes sense.  I'd look at its volume settings and how you are amplifying it.  A soft drum-machine just doesn't 'sound' right to me.  You know this is designed to be used with an electronic drum kit, right?  Maybe it's a MIDI velocity setting that's in need of adjustment.  I don't have one, so I'm just throwing out ideas here.  ---Charles J
> > >
> >
>

Thanks for everyone's help. Clarifying a few things:

I'm using the DM5 to trigger notes on the CZ-1

Velocity ranges are the same and velocity is working (volume scales with hitting force)

The volume setting MIDI command is working right: moving the volume cursor for the CZ-1 MIDI channel on an MC-505 (merged into the MIDI stream with an Opcode 128X) does change the CZ-1 output volume.

Sounds triggered by the MC-505 sound loud and normal but when triggered by the DM5 they sound ultra-quiet. I'm using a computer to spy on the MIDI stream and the only difference between DM5 and CZ-1 or MC-505 messages is that the note-off message from the DM5 is sent immediately after the note-on.

What I hear and imagine is that the CZ-1 is switching to the release section of the envelopes before it has a chance of playing through the attack section (even with Rate=99 Level=99).
Next I'm going to intercept the MIDI stream from the DM5 with a PIC and block it during the note-off messages.

Joaquim


--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@...> wrote:

>
> Playing the CZ-1 with a DM5 through MIDI would be fun but notes sound extremely quiet. I examined the MIDI output from the DM5 and found that it sends a note off message immediately after the note on message, this is likely causing the problem. Anyone has a solution?
> 
> Joaquim
>

It's working and it is fun! More details if anyone is interested.
No instant note-off message also makes the envelopes more useful, instead of Release only now I can use complete envelopes.

Glad to hear you resolved the problem. What got it working?
--Steve

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@...> wrote:

>
> It's working and it is fun! More details if anyone is interested.
> No instant note-off message also makes the envelopes more useful, instead of Release only now I can use complete envelopes.
>

Just a PIC blocking the note-off messages on the DM5 MIDI-out.

Joaquim

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> Glad to hear you resolved the problem. What got it working?
> --Steve
> 
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "jdcx64" <jdcx64@> wrote:
> >
> > It's working and it is fun! More details if anyone is interested.
> > No instant note-off message also makes the envelopes more useful, instead of Release only now I can use complete envelopes.
> >
>

One question: what's a PIC? --Steve

Never mind; I searched for PIC MIDI and found a link.  Looks interesting.

http://www.audiomulch.com/midipic/

--- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com, "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:

>
> One question: what's a PIC? --Steve
>

...and I was going to respond with the wikipedia article. I'll do it anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIC_microcontroller


On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 3:52 AM, steve_the_composer <smw-mail@...>wrote:

>   Never mind; I searched for PIC MIDI and found a link. Looks interesting.
>
> http://www.audiomulch.com/midipic/
>
>
> --- In CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <CZsynth%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "steve_the_composer" <smw-mail@...> wrote:
> >
> > One question: what's a PIC? --Steve
> >
>
>  
>


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