Casio CZ/ VZ/ FZ - Pro Series

This may sound too ethnic but this is another CASIO VZ demo I made. Check it out here at: Gamelan Valley (a casio VZ demo)

Interesting. Sounds are good. I would just make them more percussive  
(shorter decay) with longer release. Here they sound too much sustained.

How could you get microtonality? AFAIK VZ can't set it directly...
And which tuning have you used? It doesn't sound to me like slendro or  
pelog.

Daniel Forro

On 16 Sep, 2014, at 12:06 PM, cliffe123@... [CZsynth] wrote:

>
>
> This may sound too ethnic but this is another CASIO VZ demo I made.  
> Check it out here at: Gamelan Valley (a casio VZ demo)
>
>
> Gamelan Valley (a casio VZ demo)
> This is Indonesian gamelan music. The previously unreleased third  
> CASIO VZ demo and unlike anything you've ever heard before in  
> electronic music. All do...
> View on youtu.be
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
>
> 
> Posted by: cliffe123@...

Yes, but how have you done it practically, how have you got it from  
the instrument? I don't see in the manual a possibility of microtonal  
settings on VZ1... or did I miss something?

Daniel Forro

On 16 Sep, 2014, at 2:41 PM, cliffe123@... [CZsynth] wrote:
>
>
> That's probably a typical sunda since I copied that particular scale  
> from other works. I purposely did that just to compare with other  
> scales. I agree in a sense I should of used either pelog or slendra  
> scales within the VZ but maybe sometimes on my next peace eventually;)

I'm sorry but now I'm pretty confused from your message.

VZ has no sampled sounds, it's not sampler but digital synthesizer. Of  
course you can sample it's sound, detune individual samples in  
software or hardware sampler and play them from sampler in detuned  
scale.

Now you say: "detuned to a western scale" ??? What do you mean?

Within VZ you can't tune microtonal scales. Of course you can detune  
the basic sound, or use ring modulation to get those inharmonic  
spectrum, but basic tuning (temperament) will be always 12 tone equal  
temperament (= western chromatic scale).

This demo in your link can be really slendro temperament. So we are  
back to my first question. How did you get slendro "straight from VZ",  
"strictly coming out of VZ-1"?

Daniel Forro

On 16 Sep, 2014, at 3:49 PM, cliffe123@... [CZsynth] wrote:

>
>
> Oh in terms of microtonal, all the sampled sounds I played from the  
> VZ were copied into a virtual sampler. All chopped up and detuned to  
> a western scale. I'm now getting more into detuning them within the  
> VZ. This one peace is straight from the VZ you wouldnt believe. I  
> could of played this one better but check it out anyhow. This is all  
> in a slendra scale: Live VZ Gamelan Demo
>
> Live VZ Gamelan Demo
> This is strictly coming out of a casio vz-1 while I was performing  
> this live and directly into my ableton live. Performance is  
> something new to me ...
> View on soundcloud.com
> Preview by Yahoo

You are right, Cliffe, I have found this but the description in the  
manual was not quite comprehensible. Yes, this can be used to some  
degree for rather special type of microtonality.

Thanks for your explanation. I'm sure you are maybe the first person  
in the world who used this feature for good music result.  
Congratulations! This I call real creativity.

Daniel Forro

On 16 Sep, 2014, at 4:48 PM, cliffe123@... [CZsynth] wrote:

>
> Western scale, maybe I meant western tuning. Sorry for that I  
> apologize lol. Yes there is a way you can make the notes from fine  
> tuning to equal temperaments within the vz1. In edit mode go to menu  
> 1 number 5 there are up to 6 individual points of each tunings.  
> Specify what keys you want to change on each of the points and  
> specify the levels of each points. (level is your tuning). So  
> everything is in menu 1 number 5 and can only be approximate of how  
> a slendra scale sound and cannot be quite exact. You may have to  
> sort of mess around with the keys for what notes to sound and you  
> may have to detune the whole keyboard to accomplish this slendra  
> scale tuning. Hope this helps at least or if someone can explain  
> better than I can on this.

Great keep up the fine VZ work Cliffe, glad you are still delving into this unique synth!
Richard (VZ10m + 8m slut.....)


Sent from my iPad

On 16 Sep 2014, at 09:59, "Daniel Forró danforcz@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


> You are right, Cliffe, I have found this but the description in the manual was not quite comprehensible. Yes, this can be used to some degree for rather special type of microtonality.
>
> Thanks for your explanation. I'm sure you are maybe the first person in the world who used this feature for good music result. Congratulations! This I call real creativity.
>
> Daniel Forro
>
>
> On 16 Sep, 2014, at 4:48 PM, cliffe123@... [CZsynth] wrote:
>
>>
>> Western scale, maybe I meant western tuning. Sorry for that I apologize lol. Yes there is a way you can make the notes from fine tuning to equal temperaments within the vz1. In edit mode go to menu 1 number 5 there are up to 6 individual points of each tunings. Specify what keys you want to change on each of the points and specify the levels of each points. (level is your tuning). So everything is in menu 1 number 5 and can only be approximate of how a slendra scale sound and cannot be quite exact. You may have to sort of mess around with the keys for what notes to sound and you may have to detune the whole keyboard to accomplish this slendra scale tuning. Hope this helps at least or if someone can explain better than I can on this.
>
>

Great stuff!! - can't wait, as your patches are always worth loading up :))



Sent from my iPad

On 12 Oct 2014, at 00:39, "cliffe123@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


> Thanks. So sorry I've been away but wait till you and everyone else hear my next set of VZ patches. New effects and some unusual sounds. The good news is im working on them and for the bad news is I can only come up with 20 patches. May be more than that but will see for sure
>
>

Hey, keep up the good work!!




________________________________
 From: "cliffe123@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2014 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] You may like this new VZ demo.






Thanks. So sorry I've been away but wait till you and everyone else hear my next set of VZ patches. New effects and some unusual sounds. The good news is im working on them and for the bad news is I can only come up with 20 patches. May be more than that but will see for sure

The CZ book by David Crombie and The New Complete Synthesizer by David Crombie and Paul Wiffen explain phase distortion. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 21/10/14, jmfreeland@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: [CZsynth] Re: You may like this new VZ demo.
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Tuesday, 21 October, 2014, 14:00
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
     
       
       
       Are there any good in-depth explanations of the
 theory behind iPD and how it compares to DX-7 style FM? I
 know the fixed ratio makes for different requirements, and
 I'd like to understand where iPD shines and falls
 short.
 
     
      
 
     
     
 
 
 
 #yiv0125229026 #yiv0125229026 --

I have both....good books!

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

the iPD used in the vz series is not the same as phase distortion used in the cz series, and is much more comparable to the Yamaha dxs - I imagine this is what jmfreeland is referring to. It's a good question and my opinion (not claiming this as fact just basing it on actually using both synthesis engines) is in principle there is absolutely no difference between Casio vz interactive phase distortion and yamahas frequency modulation (which is really phase modulation)-you have banks of oscillators that you can connect together that can either be used independently/summed together or to modulate each other. The two companies have simply implemented it differently.

If you read the question exactly as you ask it, we should compare the vz engine with specifically the dx7.

Vz have 8 oscillators in 4 lines of 2 oscillators, which can be configured into many different algorithms. Dx7 have 6 oscillators which can be configured into 32 algorithms.

The vz modulating oscillator can be used independently (mixed/additive), to modulate the phase (pm) or modulate the amplitude (am/ring modulation) of the other oscillator in each line. There is no am in the dx7 but there is pm feedback, where an output is fed back into an earlier point in the circuit which the vz can't do. Also in the vzs the phase modulation within each line is fixed at a 1:2 ratio. Other ratios are possible by feeding on

The vz allows multiple wave shapes- sine, 5 different saws with increasing numbers of harmonics, a noise source and a pitched noise source, while the dx7 is sine only. 

The vz has 8 stage envelopes while the dx7 has addsr (5 stage) envelopes.

They are both programmed by stepping through multiple pages of menus and using a slider or incremental buttons, but the vz1/10m has a square screen allowing you to eg. view the shape of envelopes while the dx7 is text information on only 2 lines(as is the vz8). But these square screens were a Casio custom order, no one can replace a broken one and they have a habit of dying on you or at least having no backlight any more. The dx7 has membrane keys that die too, while the vz has standard push buttons you can easily replace.

An original dx7 has poor midi implementation (it was one of the first midi synths), stores lots of parameters globally rather than per patch, doesn't do multis or keyboard splits. The vz does do all those things while also having many features even missing from modern synths like velocity curves and key follow curves. But there are dx7 modifications available that add a lot of great features.

The vzs are often said to be cleaner than the dx7. This may partly be down to the DACs, which are 12 bit in the dx7 and 16 bit in the vzs. The dx is mono while the vz is stereo, with quite a few stereo field parameters for making wide patches. The vz10 has xlr outputs which would give a much better signal quality than the dx7s unbalanced mono out.

Im sure there are plenty of other points I have missed but I think that covers most of it. Personally I would choose a vz over a dx7, but would definitely choose a Yamaha tg/sy77 or sy99 over a vz - hundreds of waveforms for fm, you can even use custom samples within the fm engine. Even though I've a tg77 im keeping the vz10 for use with my Casio pg380 midi guitar.

Just remember what Yamaha call frequency modulation is actually phase modulation, and what Casio call interactive phase distortion is also actually phase modulation. Casio probably called it interactive phase distortion to avoid confusion with Yamaha and because it makes it sound like a development of their previous technology from the cz range, phase distortion. 


On 21 Oct 2014, at 21:14, Lee Borrell templarser@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The CZ book by David Crombie and The New Complete Synthesizer by David Crombie and Paul Wiffen explain phase distortion. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 21/10/14, jmfreeland@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [CZsynth] Re: You may like this new VZ demo.
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 21 October, 2014, 14:00


 









Are there any good in-depth explanations of the
theory behind iPD and how it compares to DX-7 style FM? I
know the fixed ratio makes for different requirements, and
I'd like to understand where iPD shines and falls
short.









#yiv0125229026 #yiv0125229026 --

Sorry there is a line missing for some reason, it should read:

Also in the vzs the phase modulation within each line is fixed at a 1:2 ratio. Other ratios are possible by feeding one line into another, but this can be a little limiting sometimes.






On 22 Oct 2014, at 03:04, analogmonster@ymail.com [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

the iPD used in the vz series is not the same as phase distortion used in the cz series, and is much more comparable to the Yamaha dxs - I imagine this is what jmfreeland is referring to. It's a good question and my opinion (not claiming this as fact just basing it on actually using both synthesis engines) is in principle there is absolutely no difference between Casio vz interactive phase distortion and yamahas frequency modulation (which is really phase modulation)-you have banks of oscillators that you can connect together that can either be used independently/summed together or to modulate each other. The two companies have simply implemented it differently.

If you read the question exactly as you ask it, we should compare the vz engine with specifically the dx7.

Vz have 8 oscillators in 4 lines of 2 oscillators, which can be configured into many different algorithms. Dx7 have 6 oscillators which can be configured into 32 algorithms.

The vz modulating oscillator can be used independently (mixed/additive), to modulate the phase (pm) or modulate the amplitude (am/ring modulation) of the other oscillator in each line. There is no am in the dx7 but there is pm feedback, where an output is fed back into an earlier point in the circuit which the vz can't do. Also in the vzs the phase modulation within each line is fixed at a 1:2 ratio. Other ratios are possible by feeding on

The vz allows multiple wave shapes- sine, 5 different saws with increasing numbers of harmonics, a noise source and a pitched noise source, while the dx7 is sine only. 

The vz has 8 stage envelopes while the dx7 has addsr (5 stage) envelopes.

They are both programmed by stepping through multiple pages of menus and using a slider or incremental buttons, but the vz1/10m has a square screen allowing you to eg. view the shape of envelopes while the dx7 is text information on only 2 lines(as is the vz8). But these square screens were a Casio custom order, no one can replace a broken one and they have a habit of dying on you or at least having no backlight any more. The dx7 has membrane keys that die too, while the vz has standard push buttons you can easily replace.

An original dx7 has poor midi implementation (it was one of the first midi synths), stores lots of parameters globally rather than per patch, doesn't do multis or keyboard splits. The vz does do all those things while also having many features even missing from modern synths like velocity curves and key follow curves. But there are dx7 modifications available that add a lot of great features.

The vzs are often said to be cleaner than the dx7. This may partly be down to the DACs, which are 12 bit in the dx7 and 16 bit in the vzs. The dx is mono while the vz is stereo, with quite a few stereo field parameters for making wide patches. The vz10 has xlr outputs which would give a much better signal quality than the dx7s unbalanced mono out.

Im sure there are plenty of other points I have missed but I think that covers most of it. Personally I would choose a vz over a dx7, but would definitely choose a Yamaha tg/sy77 or sy99 over a vz - hundreds of waveforms for fm, you can even use custom samples within the fm engine. Even though I've a tg77 im keeping the vz10 for use with my Casio pg380 midi guitar.

Just remember what Yamaha call frequency modulation is actually phase modulation, and what Casio call interactive phase distortion is also actually phase modulation. Casio probably called it interactive phase distortion to avoid confusion with Yamaha and because it makes it sound like a development of their previous technology from the cz range, phase distortion. 


On 21 Oct 2014, at 21:14, Lee Borrell templarser@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 
The CZ book by David Crombie and The New Complete Synthesizer by David Crombie and Paul Wiffen explain phase distortion. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 21/10/14, jmfreeland@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: [CZsynth] Re: You may like this new VZ demo.
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 21 October, 2014, 14:00


 









Are there any good in-depth explanations of the
theory behind iPD and how it compares to DX-7 style FM? I
know the fixed ratio makes for different requirements, and
I'd like to understand where iPD shines and falls
short.









#yiv0125229026 #yiv0125229026 --