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CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

2018-08-21 by sean@...

I picked up a used CZ-101 in order to build a patch editor for it (and other CZ synths of course). But its headphones are very quiet and its line out is extremely quiet.


1. My reading of the schematics suggests that the line out (not headphones) is the only one with the relay. Is this right? If so, if the headphones are also quiet, wouldn't this suggest that the relay is probably not the issue? Or is this expected behavior? Are there other parts which commonly go bad?


2. I have read that the CZ-1 has a specific replacement relay; but that the CZ-101 (and 1000?) have *different* model relays for which this replacement is incompatible. Can anyone tell me the part number for an acceptable replacement relay for the CZ-101?


Thank you in advance.

Re: [CZsynth] CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

2018-08-21 by charles copp

its Omron ,,I forget the # but maybe try
google Omron casio cz relay

ok I did it for you 
http://youthvulture.blogspot.com/2013/11/casio-cz-1-relay-replacement.html#!/2013/11/casio-cz-1-relay-replacement.html

cross ref nte for Omron

Re: [CZsynth] CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

2018-08-21 by Sean Luke

Thanks, I read that site already, but it's specifically for the CZ-1.  The following URL suggests that the NTE model will *not* work for the CZ-101.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/geekslutz-forum/1110529-replacement-relay-casio-cz101-synth.html

- Is the URL above wrong?  That is, is the NTE-R40-11D2-5/6 correct for the CZ-101 as well?

- If not, does anyone know what a suitable replacement is for the 101 relay?

Sean
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Aug 20, 2018, at 10:16 PM, charles copp charles.copp@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> its Omron ,,I forget the # but maybe try
> google Omron casio cz relay
>
> ok I did it for you
> http://youthvulture.blogspot.com/2013/11/casio-cz-1-relay-replacement.html#!/2013/11/casio-cz-1-relay-replacement.html
>
> cross ref nte for Omron
>
>

Re: [CZsynth] CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

2018-08-21 by Gordonjcp

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 01:43:17AM +0000, sean@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> I picked up a used CZ-101 in order to build a patch editor for it (and other CZ synths of course).  But its headphones are very quiet and its line out is extremely quiet.
>  
> 
>  1. My reading of the schematics suggests that the line out (not headphones) is the only one with the relay.  Is this right?  If so, if the headphones are also quiet, wouldn't this suggest that the relay is probably not the issue?  Or is this expected behavior?  Are there other parts which commonly go bad?
>  
> 
>  2. I have read that the CZ-1 has a specific replacement relay; but that the CZ-101 (and 1000?) have *different* model relays for which this replacement is incompatible.  Can anyone tell me the part number for an acceptable replacement relay for the CZ-101?

The relay will have a part number on top which you can search for,
possibly on eBay, and buy replacements.  I've just done exactly that to
get a replacement relay for the gas control module in my car (gas
conversion has a relay to switch off the fuel injectors and a relay to
switch on the gas).

You can just bypass the relay in this case, all it does is mute the
switch-on thump from the output amp.  You don't need it.

If the line output is quiet and the headphone output is equally quiet,
the fault is upstream of the relay.  What are the levels like at the
volume control?

-- 
Gordonjcp

Re: CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

2018-09-10 by sean@...

Here is what I have gathered.

- The relay in the CZ-101 is an Omron G2E-187P-H-M 5VDC, which is no longer being made.

- From the following website: http://r-massive.cellarseer.com/recapping-classic-synths-samplers/ we learn that there are two plausible replacements, an NTE R21-5D2-5/6 and a HONGFA HFD41-05. The Hongfa is closer to the correct replacement. Specifically, I think what I'm looking for is a Hongfa HFD41[A]-5VDC-N-[other stuff can vary]


Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-10 by Sean Luke

I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?

1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis>   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?

2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html <http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html>  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.

Sean

Broken 101

2018-09-10 by Sean Luke

I have a CZ-101 whose sound output (in both the headphone jack and the line out) is super, super ultra low and obviously extremely noisy at that level.

I have shorted across my CZ-101's thump relay to test it and no change has been made in sound quality: so it's not the relay.  I had supposed that this was the case anyway because both the headphones *and* line out are low, and the relay only handles the line out from my reading of the circuit board diagram.

My inclination is to sell the unit for parts -- I don't have the talent to test for and replace the op-amp, low pass filter, etc.

	1. Does anyone have any ideas I should test for before tossing the unit?

	2. I'm in the Washington DC area; reselling this for parts is not worth the postage.  If you'd like to try your hand at fixing the machine, send me mail!  Otherwise up on Craigslist it goes!

Sean

Re: [CZsynth] Re: CZ-101 Relay replacement part number?

2018-09-11 by Gordonjcp

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:28:26PM +0000, sean@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> Here is what I have gathered. 
> 
>  - The relay in the CZ-101 is an Omron G2E-187P-H-M 5VDC, which is no longer being made. 

Just get rid of it, bypass it.  It's a bloody stupid thing that doesn't
need to be there.  If you absolutely *must* have a muting circuit, use
a resistor and bipolar transistor like everyone else does.

Relay contacts develop a film of tarnish on them that is non-conductive.
In RF we arrange to pass a few tens of mA through them where they're
used for switching filters, but that's not done at audio because it
would introduce clicks and pops into things which is exactly what it's
there to prevent.  This means that without a wetting current the
contacts quickly fail.

-- 
Gordonjcp

Re: [CZsynth] Broken 101

2018-09-11 by charles copp

i can fix ... im in Canada
I even have a modification to take the
hum out of the headphone line...

Charles

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by Lee Borrell

I think the WIKI diagram is not showing AM but showing the second harmonic in a filtering scheme.

To my knowledge Casio was doing the same thing as Yamaha were doing with frequency,only with phase angle.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2018, 2:42
 Subject: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion
   
    I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?
1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?
2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.
Sean  #yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815 -- #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp #yiv9446776815hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp #yiv9446776815ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp .yiv9446776815ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp .yiv9446776815ad p {margin:0;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-mkp .yiv9446776815ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-sponsor #yiv9446776815ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-sponsor #yiv9446776815ygrp-lc #yiv9446776815hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv9446776815 #yiv9446776815ygrp-sponsor #yiv9446776815ygrp-lc .yiv9446776815ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by Jacob Vosmaer

I am not an expert but this sounds a little confused. First of all, a DCO usually means a circuit that creates an "analog" electrical signal. This does not happen in the CZ's. My understanding is that instruments of this type/era (e.g. CZ and Yamaha DX) do as much as possible in the digital domain, and then pass through a DAC and reconstruction filter at the end. There is no place for a DCO in such a design.

The way you create a sine wave in such a system is to have a look-up table of numerical values that allow you to approximate a sine wave as a step function. The value sent to the DAC is determined by a "phase accumulator", a sort of pointer into the lookup table. The rate at which the accumulator increases determines how fast you step through the lookup table, which then determines the period (pitch) of the signal created by the DAC.

If you increase the accumulator at a constant rate then you create a sine wave. If you change the rate of change, however, you start distorting the sine wave that is created by the DAC at the output. This is my high-level understanding of what phase distortion in the CZ's is doing.


Show quoted textHide quoted text
2018-09-10 14:46 GMT+02:00 Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>:

I am pretty confused about PD. Can anyone help me here?


1. PD seems to have two different descriptions. One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth. The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated. Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series? If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine? Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?

2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out. Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine. However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out. What am I seeing here? Is this the DCO wave? Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave? Etc.

Sean


Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by Lee Borrell

Sean,

I am looking at page 13 of the 101 manual which explains PD. Fig 1 shows a standard sine and the commensurate phase angle as an increasing straight line above it. As the text explains,the sine is being read LINEARLY - and therefore the sine wave results. Read as in Fig2 or 3 the phase angle is warped (modulated) by the function at the top of the figures,resulting in a sine become near saw in Fig 2 and a saw wave in Fig3. 
The DCW acts like a conventional analog filter in that it is that which alters the phase angle of the DCO. So the example Figures in the manual using sine wave are to demonstrate the principle. The modulating function (marked 0 to 2pi) is how the DCW modules the DCO phase angle to change harmonics. The DCA of course modulates the AM for (8stage) ADSR volume envelope. There is also of course pitch enveloping which alters the pitch during duration of the note.
" a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth" - the sine wave is a demo signal and the 'bent saw' is the control to the phase angle.

"the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product " -  I think it is that the control function alters the phase angle of the DCO, thence if no control function (modulation) of the phase angle is applies,then the DCO will be the wave at the output.

The DCO can combine certain waveforms to cause a more complex one before the phase angle is altered.

That is my understanding - but I confess I found the manual a tad confusing on this score the first time I looked at it.
I believe the above is correct,unless anyone has anything else to add/correct?

Lee
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2018, 2:42
 Subject: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion
   
    I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?
1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?
2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.
Sean  #yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122 -- #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp #yiv8401297122hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp #yiv8401297122ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp .yiv8401297122ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp .yiv8401297122ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-mkp .yiv8401297122ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-sponsor #yiv8401297122ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-sponsor #yiv8401297122ygrp-lc #yiv8401297122hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8401297122 #yiv8401297122ygrp-sponsor #yiv8401297122ygrp-lc .yiv8401297122ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by charles copp

I think Yamaha stole casios ideal is
what I read elsewhere...and the fm in
the dx has been proven not true fm
synthesis ,,,oh boy the internet really
messing with my mind .!! lol 

unclear  what I remember very busy
programming I modula a.t.m

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by José Ángel Morente

Hi Sean,

Both descriptions are true. The figure from the patent is indeed the combination of the raw PD synthesis plus regular AM. The reason is that the CZ series synths implement both techniques (remember the magical RING button; ring modulation is a particular case of the more generic classic AM). About how the synths "bends"; the DCO's wave... well, as a matter of fact, it doesn't bend anything. What the synth does is a phase modification when reading a lookup table containing a pure sine wave. Just imagine what happened if you read a sine wave but you do it 'slowly' during half a wave, and suddenly you read very fast the other half of the wave. You will have indeed a sort of graphic 'bending', but what actually happened is that the phase of the DCO was modulated during the cycle reading by a time/amplitude function (just a knee function, visually similar to the one used in compressors or waveshapers).

The 'slower' you read the first chunk of the wave, the closer to a sawtooth will the output wave be. And of course acts like a lowpass filter.
In other words, you change the speed of the wave playback during the whole cycle, so after all you're modulating the frequency. That's why sometimes the PD synthesis is referred as a particular case of FM synthesis.

About what you 'see' at the output, well... the CZ/VZ has no DCOs in a traditional sense; the DCO naming is used just to make things more understable for the musician. These synths use a huge ASIC chip where the final wave is generated from the lookup tables and the modulation process.

BTW, the VZ-1 is a bit more complex. It uses the same CZ/PD synthesis as 'presets' to define the primitive waveforms (SIN, SAW1, SAW2, SAW3, etc.), but then those final waveforms are the basic waves for a flexible FM algorithm featuring 8 operators per voice. A beast. My favourite baby, BTW.

Cheers,

J.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:42 AM Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I am pretty confused about PD. Can anyone help me here?


1. PD seems to have two different descriptions. One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth. The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated. Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series? If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine? Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?

2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out. Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine. However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out. What am I seeing here? Is this the DCO wave? Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave? Etc.

Sean

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by Loscha

Yamaha was making FM Synthesizers before Casio made any musical products.

Yamaha FM is generally implemented as a phase modulation, it's true. The basic PM equation uses one fewer multiplication per sample than the basic FM equation. In a synthesizer like the GS1, that is many square inches of board saved per voice.
Show quoted textHide quoted text

On Thursday, September 13, 2018, charles copp charles.copp@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I think Yamaha stole casios ideal is
what I read elsewhere...and the fm in
the dx has been proven not true fm
synthesis ,,,oh boy the internet really
messing with my mind .!! lol

unclear what I remember very busy
programming I modula a.t.m

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by Lee Borrell

Sean,
Following up on what Jose said (which I agree with) I did some experiments with my 101.
[I had forgotten about Ring Mod which indeed IS AM modulation].

I hooked the 101 to a scope and knocked everything off,one waveform selected.ADSR on one step. The result with no level set is a sine wave,when the level is increased the 'dco' waveform results - which means the waveshapes shown on the front facia result. Adding in a 2nd waveform results,as the manual states, in the first wave,followed by the second. This is what appears on the scope with 'level' (modulation index) set to 99. Cranking it back to 0 results in a sine wave.
Thence if the (8stage) ADSR is set,variation occurs from low to high harmonics during the note,dependent on the waveform selection and ADSR step level settings.

Jose's description of changing the read speed of a lookup table is how it goes about doing this.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "José Ángel Morente msxjam@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2018, 20:07
 Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion
   
    Hi Sean,
Both descriptions are true. The figure from the patent is indeed the combination of the raw PD synthesis plus regular AM. The reason is that the CZ series synths implement both techniques (remember the magical RING button; ring modulation is a particular case of the more generic classic AM). About how the synths "bends" the DCO's wave... well, as a matter of fact, it doesn't bend anything. What the synth does is a phase modification when reading a lookup table containing a pure sine wave.   Just imagine what happened if you read a sine wave but you do it 'slowly' during half a wave, and suddenly you read very fast the other half of the wave. You will have indeed a sort of graphic 'bending', but what actually happened is that the phase of the DCO was modulated during the cycle reading by a time/amplitude function (just a knee function, visually similar to the one used in compressors or waveshapers).
The 'slower' you read the first chunk of the wave, the closer to a sawtooth will the output wave be. And of course acts like a lowpass filter.In other words, you change the speed of the wave playback during the whole cycle, so after all you're modulating the frequency. That's why sometimes the PD synthesis is referred as a particular case of FM synthesis.
About what you 'see' at the output, well.... the CZ/VZ has no DCOs in a traditional sense; the DCO naming is used just to make things more understable for the musician. These synths use a huge ASIC chip where the final wave is generated from the lookup tables and the modulation process.
BTW, the VZ-1 is a bit more complex. It uses the same CZ/PD synthesis as 'presets' to define the primitive waveforms (SIN, SAW1, SAW2, SAW3, etc.), but then those final waveforms are the basic waves for a flexible FM algorithm featuring 8 operators per voice. A beast. My favourite baby, BTW.
Cheers,
J.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:42 AM Sean Luke sean@....edu [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

     I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?
1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?
2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.
Sean

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-12 by Lee Borrell

Sean

I have a video online describing CZ PD (although it seems to wrongly suggest that the DCW alters between waveshape 1 and 2,rather than sine and waveshape).

CZ is described 10 mins in.

Synths Part5

  
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Synths Part5
 The synthesis methods FM,PD & LA  |   |

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Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2018, 2:42
 Subject: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion
   
    I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?
1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?
2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.
Sean  #yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281 -- #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp #yiv2800188281hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp #yiv2800188281ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp .yiv2800188281ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp .yiv2800188281ad p {margin:0;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-mkp .yiv2800188281ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-sponsor #yiv2800188281ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-sponsor #yiv2800188281ygrp-lc #yiv2800188281hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv2800188281 #yiv2800188281ygrp-sponsor #yiv2800188281ygrp-lc .yiv2800188281ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-13 by danforcz

How it could happen when Casio PD/iPD synthesis came few years after Yamaha FM?

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 13, 2018, at 2:27, charles copp charles.copp@sympatico.ca [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I think Yamaha stole casios ideal is
> what I read elsewhere...and the fm in
> the dx has been proven not true fm
> synthesis ,,,oh boy the internet really
> messing with my mind .!! lol 
> 
> unclear  what I remember very busy
> programming I modula a.t.m
>

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-13 by José Ángel Morente

It was the opposite indeed.

Casio noted that Yamaha’s FM synthesis was too difficult to understand for regular musicians so they thought that their PD approach would succeed because the UI was similar to a traditional substractive synth.


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Thu, 13 Sep 2018 at 03:22, danforcz danforcz@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

How it could happen when Casio PD/iPD synthesis came few years after Yamaha FM?

Daniel Forro

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 2:27, charles copp charles.copp@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I think Yamaha stole casios ideal is
> what I read elsewhere...and the fm in
> the dx has been proven not true fm
> synthesis ,,,oh boy the internet really
> messing with my mind .!! lol
>
> unclear what I remember very busy
> programming I modula a.t.m
>

Re: [CZsynth] Broken 101

2018-09-13 by fingermush hcfx

Sounds like paid opamps. How much?

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 6:07 PM Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text

I have a CZ-101 whose sound output (in both the headphone jack and the line out) is super, super ultra low and obviously extremely noisy at that level.

I have shorted across my CZ-101's thump relay to test it and no change has been made in sound quality: so it's not the relay. I had supposed that this was the case anyway because both the headphones *and* line out are low, and the relay only handles the line out from my reading of the circuit board diagram.

My inclination is to sell the unit for parts -- I don't have the talent to test for and replace the op-amp, low pass filter, etc.

1. Does anyone have any ideas I should test for before tossing the unit?

2. I'm in the Washington DC area; reselling this for parts is not worth the postage. If you'd like to try your hand at fixing the machine, send me mail! Otherwise up on Craigslist it goes!

Sean

Re: [CZsynth] Broken 101

2018-09-13 by Sean Luke

I don't know how much for sure -- I think "for parts" ones usually go for a bit north of $100 on ebay, but I could double-check.  Where are you located?

I picked up the unit in order to write a patch editor for Edisyn.  I've got the editor about half-finished, but it's frustrating testing it with a synth in this condition.  However I'd ultimately want to finish the patch editor first (a few weeks probably) and then resell the synth.  Disappointing through.

Sean
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 13, 2018, at 2:31 AM, fingermush hcfx Fingermush@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Sounds like paid opamps. How much?
> 
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 6:07 PM Sean Luke sean@cs.gmu.edu <mailto:sean@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>  
> I have a CZ-101 whose sound output (in both the headphone jack and the line out) is super, super ultra low and obviously extremely noisy at that level.
> 
> I have shorted across my CZ-101's thump relay to test it and no change has been made in sound quality: so it's not the relay. I had supposed that this was the case anyway because both the headphones *and* line out are low, and the relay only handles the line out from my reading of the circuit board diagram.
> 
> My inclination is to sell the unit for parts -- I don't have the talent to test for and replace the op-amp, low pass filter, etc.
> 
> 1. Does anyone have any ideas I should test for before tossing the unit?
> 
> 2. I'm in the Washington DC area; reselling this for parts is not worth the postage. If you'd like to try your hand at fixing the machine, send me mail! Otherwise up on Craigslist it goes!
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
>

Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-13 by Les Morey

Hi all, I've got a CZ-5000 that I've had for decades, but haven't used it in quite a while, although it's been in my climate controlled studio.  I went to turn it on, and no response, no LCD indications, no lights, nothing.  I have very limited electronics skills but a decent sense of adventure, any suggestions for things to try?  (I've already tried the obvious different outlets/power cords).  I haven't taken it apart yet at all.

I hate to see it go, but if I don't have any luck I might take it over to Syntaur (I'm a couple of hours from them) and see what they'd give me for a dead CZ, with the hope that they would eventually fix it and let someone else enjoy it.

Thanks for any suggestions--




..

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-14 by José Ángel Morente

It seems a power supply issue. Maybe it’s quite obvious but have you checked if the fuse is blown?


Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 06:28, Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi all, I've got a CZ-5000 that I've had for decades, but haven't used it in quite a while, although it9;s been in my climate controlled studio. I went to turn it on, and no response, no LCD indications, no lights, nothing. I have very limited electronics skills but a decent sense of adventure, any suggestions for things to try? (I've already tried the obvious different outlets/power cords). I haven't taken it apart yet at all.

I hate to see it go, but if I don't have any luck I might take it over to Syntaur (I'm a couple of hours from them) and see what they'd give me for a dead CZ, with the hope that they would eventually fix it and let someone else enjoy it.

Thanks for any suggestions--

.

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-14 by danforcz

- Check batteries, put them off and check if they didn’t leak inside after the time the instrument was not used. If yes, you have to clean all, and check if something more inside was not damaged. Try to switch on the instrument without batteries inside (they just keep memory contents). Probably batteries are dead after long time, so anyway you lost RAM contents. I'd suppose

- Put power cable off the socket, and move more times with voltage selector, return it to the voltage used in your country, connect cable and try to switch on again. Maybe it’s dirty or oxidized contact.

- Check all four fuses inside PSU for continuity. There’s one TF (thermal fuse?) probably hidden inside the transformer, hopefully it’s OK - check the primary transformer coil with ohm meter for continuity.

- When instrument is on, measure if PSU voltages are on spec.

- Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.

- Initialize the instrument with Initialize button as described in the Service manual.

- Re-seat all connectors inside, maybe some contact is oxidized. Also IC’s in sockets…

Good luck!

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 14, 2018, at 15:18, José Ángel Morente msxjam@gmail.com [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems a power supply issue. Maybe it’s quite obvious but have you checked if the fuse is blown?
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 06:28, Les Morey moreylc@outlook.com <mailto:moreylc@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all, I've got a CZ-5000 that I've had for decades, but haven't used it in quite a while, although it's been in my climate controlled studio.  I went to turn it on, and no response, no LCD indications, no lights, nothing.  I have very limited electronics skills but a decent sense of adventure, any suggestions for things to try?  (I've already tried the obvious different outlets/power cords).  I haven't taken it apart yet at all.
> 
> I hate to see it go, but if I don't have any luck I might take it over to Syntaur (I'm a couple of hours from them) and see what they'd give me for a dead CZ, with the hope that they would eventually fix it and let someone else enjoy it.
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions--
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-14 by Lee Borrell

That would be right,there is no 'DCO' as such. Although 'DCO' is exactly what Casio have written on the front facia which only helps confuse matters. 
In the sense that there is an oscillating signal that is digitally produced.....
Otherwise....agreed,the CZ is not using a DCO.

Lee
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "Jacob Vosmaer contact@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018, 5:27
 Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion
   
    I am not an expert but this sounds a little confused. First of all, a DCO usually means a circuit that creates an "analog" electrical signal. This does not happen in the CZ's. My understanding is that instruments of this type/era (e.g. CZ and Yamaha DX) do as much as possible in the digital domain, and then pass through a DAC and reconstruction filter at the end. There is no place for a DCO in such a design.
The way you create a sine wave in such a system is to have a look-up table of numerical values that allow you to approximate a sine wave as a step function. The value sent to the DAC is determined by a "phase accumulator", a sort of pointer into the lookup table. The rate at which the accumulator increases determines how fast you step through the lookup table, which then determines the period (pitch) of the signal created by the DAC.
If you increase the accumulator at a constant rate then you create a sine wave. If you change the rate of change, however, you start distorting the sine wave that is created by the DAC at the output. This is my high-level understanding of what phase distortion in the CZ's is doing. 



2018-09-10 14:46 GMT+02:00 Sean Luke sean@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>:

     I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?
1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Phase_distortion_ synthesis   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?
2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/ projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/ 7-window-unique.html  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.
Sean

Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion

2018-09-14 by danforcz

This DCO term was used just to help users to understand more easily what it is. It is only simplification. As Jose explained well yesterday. 

I would recommend to every group member to read messages more carefully - not only in this group it happens too often that something which was excellently explained just few days ago is again asked to explain.

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 14, 2018, at 16:25, Lee Borrell templarser@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be right,there is no 'DCO' as such. Although 'DCO' is exactly what Casio have written on the front facia which only helps confuse matters. 
> In the sense that there is an oscillating signal that is digitally produced.....
> Otherwise....agreed,the CZ is not using a DCO.
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Jacob Vosmaer contact@jacobvosmaer.nl <mailto:contact@...> [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>>
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> 
> Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018, 5:27
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Questions about Phase Distortion
> 
> I am not an expert but this sounds a little confused. First of all, a DCO usually means a circuit that creates an "analog" electrical signal. This does not happen in the CZ's. My understanding is that instruments of this type/era (e.g. CZ and Yamaha DX) do as much as possible in the digital domain, and then pass through a DAC and reconstruction filter at the end. There is no place for a DCO in such a design.
> 
> The way you create a sine wave in such a system is to have a look-up table of numerical values that allow you to approximate a sine wave as a step function. The value sent to the DAC is determined by a "phase accumulator", a sort of pointer into the lookup table. The rate at which the accumulator increases determines how fast you step through the lookup table, which then determines the period (pitch) of the signal created by the DAC.
> 
> If you increase the accumulator at a constant rate then you create a sine wave. If you change the rate of change, however, you start distorting the sine wave that is created by the DAC at the output. This is my high-level understanding of what phase distortion in the CZ's is doing. 
> 
> 
> 
> 2018-09-10 14:46 GMT+02:00 Sean Luke sean@... <mailto:sean@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>>:
>  
> I am pretty confused about PD.  Can anyone help me here?
> 
> 1. PD seems to have two different descriptions.  One is the description that appears in the Casio series manuals, where a sine wave is being distorted by a bent sawtooth.  The other is a figure which comes from the PD patent: you can see the figure here https://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Phase_distortion_ synthesis <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_distortion_synthesis>   Note that the sine is being both distorted and then amplitude-modulated.  Can anyone tell me which of the two is correct for the CZ series?  If it's the example in the manual, a sawtooth is easy, but how does one "bend" other DCO Waves so as to distort a sine?  Or does a plain sawtooth get morphed into the DCO wave in question so as to distort the sine?
> 
> 2. I am confused by the sound output being displayed on various websites, such as http://www.kasploosh.com/ projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/ 7-window-unique.html <http://www.kasploosh.com/projects/CZ/11800-spelunking/7-window-unique.html>  My understanding is that the wave produced by the DCO is used to distort a sine wave, and this distorted sine wave is the final product (ignoring the DCA) sent to line out.  Furthermore, the manual suggests that at one end of the DCW modulation we have a pure sine wave and at the other end we have the distorted sine.  However these websites suggest that the DCO wave can be viewed directly at line out.  What am I seeing here?  Is this the DCO wave?  Is it the distorted sine wave which for some reason resembles the DCO wave?  Etc.
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-14 by Les Morey

I don't see any externally accessible fuse on the machine.  I'm guessing there must be some kind of fuse for the power supply.  Do I need to take the case apart to get at it?

________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of José Ángel Morente msxjam@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 1:18 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000



It seems a power supply issue. Maybe it’s quite obvious but have you checked if the fuse is blown?



On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 06:28, Les Morey moreylc@...<mailto:moreylc@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com<mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:


Hi all, I've got a CZ-5000 that I've had for decades, but haven't used it in quite a while, although it's been in my climate controlled studio.  I went to turn it on, and no response, no LCD indications, no lights, nothing.  I have very limited electronics skills but a decent sense of adventure, any suggestions for things to try?  (I've already tried the obvious different outlets/power cords).  I haven't taken it apart yet at all.

I hate to see it go, but if I don't have any luck I might take it over to Syntaur (I'm a couple of hours from them) and see what they'd give me for a dead CZ, with the hope that they would eventually fix it and let someone else enjoy it.

Thanks for any suggestions--




..

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-14 by danforcz

- Check batteries, put them off and check if they didn’t leak inside after the time the instrument was not used. If yes, you have to clean all, and check if something more inside was not damaged. Try to switch on the instrument without batteries inside (they just keep memory contents). Probably batteries are dead after long time, so anyway you lost RAM contents. I'd suppose

- Put power cable off the socket, and move more times with voltage selector, return it to the voltage used in your country, connect cable and try to switch on again. Maybe it’s dirty or oxidized contact.

- Check all four fuses inside PSU for continuity. There’s one TF (thermal fuse?) probably hidden inside the transformer, hopefully it’s OK - check the primary transformer coil with ohm meter for continuity.

- When instrument is on, measure if PSU voltages are on spec.

- Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.

- Initialize the instrument with Initialize button as described in the Service manual.

- Re-seat all connectors inside, maybe some contact is oxidized. Also IC’s in sockets…

Good luck!

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 14, 2018, at 1:10, Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi all, I've got a CZ-5000 that I've had for decades, but haven't used it in quite a while, although it's been in my climate controlled studio.  I went to turn it on, and no response, no LCD indications, no lights, nothing.  I have very limited electronics skills but a decent sense of adventure, any suggestions for things to try?  (I've already tried the obvious different outlets/power cords).  I haven't taken it apart yet at all.
> 
> I hate to see it go, but if I don't have any luck I might take it over to Syntaur (I'm a couple of hours from them) and see what they'd give me for a dead CZ, with the hope that they would eventually fix it and let someone else enjoy it.
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions--
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-14 by Les Morey

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!  Amazingly (to me), the suggestion below worked--no smoke, just lights and the trusty BRASS ENS patch after leaving it on (apparently dead) for an hour or so.  I suppose there is a better electronics explanation than it was just sulking about its lack of use, but whatever it is, the CZ now powers on instantly upon repeated attempts, even after sitting for a few hours unplugged.  There may be issues lurking in there that will re-emerge, but in the meantime I'll just try to boot it up regularly and play some 80's new wave on it to keep it happy.

Thanks again, Dan and all!

________________________________
From: CZsynth@yahoogroups..com <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of danforcz danforcz@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:17 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000


- Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-14 by danforcz

Congratulations to your successful repair! 

Voltages from PSU are +5 Volts and +/-15 Volts according to the Service Manual.

It can be found for example here:

https://www.vintagesynthparts.com/service-manual/ <https://www.vintagesynthparts.com/service-manual/>

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 14, 2018, at 15:30, flori.weiler@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi, my CZ-5000 had the same problem. The reason was a damaged connection on the powerboard (the small board with a fuses that takes the power cord). 
> 
> I also consider my electronics skills quite limited, but I was able to fix it. First thing I did was open up the 5000 and my CZ-1 and connect the CZ-1's powerboard to the CZ-5000 and voila - it worked, problem isolated. I then took the service manual and started measuring the powerboard and eventually found one connection on the board that wouldn't let any current flow - although it looked perfect. I simply bridged this connection with a wire and the Synth power on!
> 
> You can find the service-manual on the web, it contains diagrams for all the boards. Actually I think it should also be relatively easy to completely replace the powerboard, all it does is provide different outputs of +/- 5V and 12V I think.
> 
> Good luck!
> Florian

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-15 by danforcz

Of course you have to open the machine. 

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 14, 2018, at 18:52, Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any externally accessible fuse on the machine.  I'm guessing there must be some kind of fuse for the power supply.  Do I need to take the case apart to get at it?
> 
> From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of José Ángel Morente msxjam@gmail.com <mailto:msxjam@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 1:18 AM
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000
>  
> 
> It seems a power supply issue. Maybe it’s quite obvious but have you checked if the fuse is blown?
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 at 06:28, Les Morey moreylc@... <mailto:moreylc@outlook.com> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> wrote:
>  
> 
> Hi all, I've got a CZ-5000 that I've had for decades, but haven't used it in quite a while, although it's been in my climate controlled studio.  I went to turn it on, and no response, no LCD indications, no lights, nothing.  I have very limited electronics skills but a decent sense of adventure, any suggestions for things to try?  (I've already tried the obvious different outlets/power cords).  I haven't taken it apart yet at all.
> 
> I hate to see it go, but if I don't have any luck I might take it over to Syntaur (I'm a couple of hours from them) and see what they'd give me for a dead CZ, with the hope that they would eventually fix it and let someone else enjoy it.
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions--
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-15 by Lee Borrell

Could it have been slightly damp,or subject to a change in temperature? It's usually best to leave (unused) electronics to acclimatize to where they are going to be used. Still - a pleasant surprise.  Good one Dan.

Lee
Show quoted textHide quoted text
      From: "Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
 To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2018, 14:51
 Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000
   
    Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!  Amazingly (to me), the suggestion below worked--no smoke, just lights and the trusty BRASS ENS patch after leaving it on (apparently dead) for an hour or so.  I suppose there is a better electronics explanation than it was just sulking about its lack of use, but whatever it is, the CZ now powers on instantly upon repeated attempts, even after sitting for a few hours unplugged.  There may be issues lurking in there that will re-emerge, but in the meantime I'll just try to boot it up regularly and play some 80's new wave on it to keep it happy.
Thanks again, Dan and all!
From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of danforcz danforcz@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:17 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000 
- Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-17 by danforcz

Yes, there is explanation, AFAIK - capacitors need something like reforming after long time out of use.

It seems to me that it can be true, at least I have restarted few seemingly dead instruments this was during my numerous electronic repairs.

Daniel Forro
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 15, 2018, at 6:29, Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!  Amazingly (to me), the suggestion below worked--no smoke, just lights and the trusty BRASS ENS patch after leaving it on (apparently dead) for an hour or so.  I suppose there is a better electronics explanation than it was just sulking about its lack of use, but whatever it is, the CZ now powers on instantly upon repeated attempts, even after sitting for a few hours unplugged.  There may be issues lurking in there that will re-emerge, but in the meantime I'll just try to boot it up regularly and play some 80's new wave on it to keep it happy.
> 
> Thanks again, Dan and all!
> 
> From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of danforcz danforcz@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:17 AM
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000
>  
> 
> - Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-17 by Les Morey

No dampness, and it had literally been in the same room for 20 years. A mystery to me, but I'm not complaining about the outcome!

Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Lee Borrell templarser@... [CZsynth]
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 9:55 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

Could it have been slightly damp,or subject to a change in temperature? It's usually best to leave (unused) electronics to acclimatize to where they are going to be used. Still - a pleasant surprise. Good one Dan.

Lee


From: "Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth]"
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2018, 14:51
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone! Amazingly (to me), the suggestion below worked--no smoke, just lights and the trusty BRASS ENS patch after leaving it on (apparently dead) for an hour or so. I suppose there is a better electronics explanation than it was just sulking about its lack of use, but whatever it is, the CZ now powers on instantly upon repeated attempts, even after sitting for a few hours unplugged. There may be issues lurking in there that will re-emerge, but in the meantime I'll just try to boot it up regularly and play some 80's new wave on it to keep it happy.

Thanks again, Dan and all!

From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com on behalf of danforcz danforcz@yahoo.com [CZsynth]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:17 AM
To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

- Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.





Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-17 by Sean Luke

My first guess would be that you had the capacitance completely bleed off from some component, but I dunno.

A long time ago I had a NeXTstation which exhibited the following property.  If you turned it on, it would run fine for about 15 minutes.  Then it locked up.  And then it wouldn't turn on for about a week and a half.  Then it would run for another 15 minutes.  The problem was that one of the memory cards had a crack in a solder joint which built up capacitance over that 15 minutes, which converted the crack into an insulator and shut off electrical flow.  It would take 1.5 weeks for the capacitance to bleed off. 

This feels like the opposite!
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Sep 17, 2018, at 9:24 AM, Les Morey moreylc@... [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> No dampness, and it had literally been in the same room for 20 years.  A mystery to me, but I'm not complaining about the outcome!
> 
> From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of Lee Borrell templarser@... <mailto:templarser@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 9:55 AM
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000
>  
>  
> 
> Could it have been slightly damp,or subject to a change in temperature? It's usually best to leave (unused) electronics to acclimatize to where they are going to be used. Still - a pleasant surprise.  Good one Dan.
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> From: "Les Morey moreylc@... <mailto:moreylc@...> [CZsynth]" <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>>
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> 
> Sent: Saturday, 15 September 2018, 14:51
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000
> 
>  
> Thanks for the suggestions, everyone!  Amazingly (to me), the suggestion below worked--no smoke, just lights and the trusty BRASS ENS patch after leaving it on (apparently dead) for an hour or so.  I suppose there is a better electronics explanation than it was just sulking about its lack of use, but whatever it is, the CZ now powers on instantly upon repeated attempts, even after sitting for a few hours unplugged.  There may be issues lurking in there that will re-emerge, but in the meantime I'll just try to boot it up regularly and play some 80's new wave on it to keep it happy.
> 
> Thanks again, Dan and all!
> 
> From: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com> <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>> on behalf of danforcz danforcz@... <mailto:danforcz@...> [CZsynth] <CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 2:17 AM
> To: CZsynth@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CZsynth@...m>
> Subject: Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000
>  
> 
> - Leave the instrument on for few hours, maybe it needs it if it was not used for long time. But stay near and watch it, if any problem occurs (smoke or so), switch it off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1jVCmwjBzMxn76SpzbOtV_5DcDrB_y0dpf7X4d9a25CFqhnn5i-_ICgYRDAuKW94yB93eXNY9tyzWbqhFTmcszPQ-BPx9y6D6KpUQgBvORrYO7rNYeSsW6CzyAizLlpHgJdvmyd2R40aY91dExmbR9CsO-OZjAiK-xH9UdpxcWgg7e6uwwOmQ1qsPtD7AEotdDRkxbLThmjrI2NsUhymf32yncdAvNL1IJo9nOqeOdM5WOSGfe4ihoFChbGtJMTD74TE31lLY6dpoqJ5OtjbNFgbrKlnoJ8tJORhgDzjZVEgQJ-iadCFhZtuva_-upPVSap0VTHPsA29xHBzTUEwiKIrsZPjCdjt8Ngr1ui6Qe0LMLVujAPfMuwpjTiMrzxtf8IVQWGv6XIliJukPBo_4aF9MR-RvXHisTB0Ext6kl3EwO-qnTcbe7pVGIq0q2Uzq27AOgXZs0Y21tBJmPyCtZw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Dwebmail>	Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://secure-web.cisco.com/1jVCmwjBzMxn76SpzbOtV_5DcDrB_y0dpf7X4d9a25CFqhnn5i-_ICgYRDAuKW94yB93eXNY9tyzWbqhFTmcszPQ-BPx9y6D6KpUQgBvORrYO7rNYeSsW6CzyAizLlpHgJdvmyd2R40aY91dExmbR9CsO-OZjAiK-xH9UdpxcWgg7e6uwwOmQ1qsPtD7AEotdDRkxbLThmjrI2NsUhymf32yncdAvNL1IJo9nOqeOdM5WOSGfe4ihoFChbGtJMTD74TE31lLY6dpoqJ5OtjbNFgbrKlnoJ8tJORhgDzjZVEgQJ-iadCFhZtuva_-upPVSap0VTHPsA29xHBzTUEwiKIrsZPjCdjt8Ngr1ui6Qe0LMLVujAPfMuwpjTiMrzxtf8IVQWGv6XIliJukPBo_4aF9MR-RvXHisTB0Ext6kl3EwO-qnTcbe7pVGIq0q2Uzq27AOgXZs0Y21tBJmPyCtZw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Dwebmail> <x-msg://79/#x_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> 
> 
>

Re: [CZsynth] Dead CZ-5000

2018-09-18 by Gordonjcp

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 09:12:29PM +0900, danforcz danforcz@... [CZsynth] wrote:
> Yes, there is explanation, AFAIK - capacitors need something like reforming after long time out of use.

That's only really the case if they've been out of use for many decades
- think 1940s equipment that was last switched on 50 years ago.

-- 
Gordonjcp

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.