Dave Smith Instruments SYNTHESIZERS

Hello,
just saw that dave updated his website for evo!
Now you can download offical OS 2, Docu and the four Soundbanks.
Also there is a page with screenshots of the EvoEditor! 
At last, because this tool is very helpfull, i just ordered it.
I think about buing this 4-voice-evo-rack (what will be the name of
it?) as soon as the first batch is comming. He told me to see him at
the next musicfair in Frankfurt next year..., so there is still time
to save some money.
Stefan

on 10/22/03 7:20 AM, privat_joy wrote:

> I think about buing this 4-voice-evo-rack
> (what will be the name of it?)

(R)evolver.  ;)


cheers,
aeon

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, aeon wrote:

> on 10/22/03 7:20 AM, privat_joy wrote:
>
> > I think about buing this 4-voice-evo-rack
> > (what will be the name of it?)
>
> (R)evolver.  ;)

heh... cool.

you know, as i've actually been *playing* the evolver (i haven't had a
full-sized keyboard since before i got the evo... but my Z1 arrived last
week. yum!), i've changed my mind about a rack version... it would be
*awesome* to have a polyphonic version! however, i still don't see the
point of having all those sequencers for each voice. i like the idea of
using a mono evolver as a controller. but i think i'd like at least six
notes of polyphony... four is a tease. you play some lush line and then it
starts to cut off, so you have to hold back. i say ditch the sequencers
and add two more voices. :) (sequencing can be taken care of by a mono
evolver controller).

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 09:37:05AM -0500, blip wrote:
> i like the idea of using a mono evolver as a controller. but i think i'd
> like at least six notes of polyphony... four is a tease. you play some lush
> line and then it starts to cut off, so you have to hold back.

I suspect the idea is that everybody will have a normal evolver for control
puposes, and so will at least have 5 voices....

> i say ditch the sequencers and add two more voices. :)

Of course, isn't a real tradeoff -- the sequencers are extremley cheap to
implement (just a bit of [non-cpu-intensive] computer code), whereas two more
voices would be fairly expensive (extra analogue hardware + probably a more
powerful DSP required).

-miles
-- 
Saa, shall we dance?  (from a dance-class advertisement)

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 12:08:21PM -0400, Miles Bader wrote:
>    Of course, isn't a real tradeoff -- the sequencers are extremley cheap
>    to
>    implement  (just  a bit of [non-cpu-intensive] computer code), whereas
>    two more
>    voices would be fairly expensive (extra analogue hardware + probably a
>    more
>    powerful DSP required).
>    -miles

does that justify the price of $1200 to $1500 though?  Is it just me, or
does that seem a little high for what the rack will offer?

Maybe I just expected it to be an outrageously great value like
the Evolver is...

Joe

Joe said, "Does that justify the price of $1200 to $1500 though?  Is 
it just me, or does that seem a little high for what the rack will 
offer?  Maybe I just expected it to be an outrageously great value 
like the Evolver is..."

The Evo Rack hardware is essentially four "regular" Evolvers crammed 
into a 1U rack.  The "regular" Evolver is about $500 USD.  Multiply 
that by four, and you get $2,000 USD.  Even allowing for savings due 
to the reduction of the count of common items such as the enclosure, 
power supply, etc., $1,200 to $1,500 USD sounds pretty good to me.  
If $500 is an "outrageously great value" for a monophonic Evolver, 
then $1,200 to $1,500 for a four voice Evolver is even more 
outrageous.

Keep in mind that this is not a "virtual analog" machine we're 
talking about.  If you want to quadruple the polyphony, you have to 
quadruple most of the hardware.  Make sense?


Ski
www.ex5tech.com
EX5Tech Evolver forum:
http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=23


--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Joe <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 12:08:21PM -0400, Miles Bader wrote:
> >    Of course, isn't a real tradeoff -- the sequencers are 
extremley cheap
> >    to
> >    implement  (just  a bit of [non-cpu-intensive] computer code), 
whereas
> >    two more
> >    voices would be fairly expensive (extra analogue hardware + 
probably a
> >    more
> >    powerful DSP required).
> >    -miles
> 
> does that justify the price of $1200 to $1500 though?  Is it just 
me, or

> does that seem a little high for what the rack will offer?
> 
> Maybe I just expected it to be an outrageously great value like
> the Evolver is...
> 
> Joe

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 05:11:20PM -0000, ski_ex5tech wrote:
>    The Evo Rack hardware is essentially four "regular" Evolvers crammed
>    into a 1U rack.  The "regular" Evolver is about $500 USD.  Multiply
>    that by four, and you get $2,000 USD.  Even allowing for savings due
>    to the reduction of the count of common items such as the enclosure,
>    power supply, etc., $1,200 to $1,500 USD sounds pretty good to me.
>    If $500 is an "outrageously great value" for a monophonic Evolver,
>    then $1,200 to $1,500 for a four voice Evolver is even more
>    outrageous.

these are all good points and they make sense.  it just seems a bit odd
to me. I think that's mainly because I figured that even though the
Evolver is cheap, Dave probably had some of that price to help him gain
back the money spent in R&D. but since the rack version is very similar
to the Evolver (and Dave said himself it was pretty easy to get it
working), he probably spent very little on R&D this time around.

I don't know. the price isn't necessarily out of line with other
polyphonic analogs out there (for example, the Vermona Perfourmer has
four voices and is about $900, but has no built-in sequencers), but I
just expected a better bargain I guess.

I mean, last I checked the Andromeda (16 analog voices) was going for
around $1600 used.  it might be difficult (for me at least) to get the
rack Evolver knowing that :-)

>    Keep in mind that this is not a "virtual analog" machine we're
>    talking about.  If you want to quadruple the polyphony, you have to
>    quadruple most of the hardware.  Make sense?

well, except for the digital side.

Joe

Joe said, "Dave probably had some of that price to help him gain back 
the money spent in R&D. but since the rack version is very similar to 
the Evolver (and Dave said himself it was pretty easy to get it 
working), he probably spent very little on R&D this time around."

I agree, and that's probably a big part of why the Evo Rack will be 
$1,200-1,500 - which is 25-40% lower than $2,000.  That still seems 
like a pretty big price reduction to me, compared to the purchase of 
four separate mono Evolvers.

Regarding the alternative of a used Andromeda...  That's certainly a 
great alternative for those of us that are OK with purchasing used 
equipment (which I'd guess includes most people here).  I don't think 
it's fair to compare those two options on a price/value basis, 
though, because you're comparing apples and oranges - used vs. new 
equipment.  Of course the "bank for the buck" is going to be higher 
for used equipment!  If you could get a USED Evo Rack (obviously not 
possible yet!), THAT would be a fair price/value comparison to your 
$1,600 used Andromeda.  :)  

If you're in the market for polyphonic analog NOW though, and can't 
wait for a used Evo Rack, I'd recommend getting the used Andromeda.  
If you're willing to go VA, rather than RA, then I'd recommend you 
also take a look at the Alesis Ion, Novation KS series, and Access 
Virus C (in no particular order), all of which are very nice machines.


Ski
www.ex5tech.com
EX5Tech Evolver forum:
http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=23


--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Joe <jmelnyk@c...> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 05:11:20PM -0000, ski_ex5tech wrote:
> >    The Evo Rack hardware is essentially four "regular" Evolvers 
crammed
> >    into a 1U rack.  The "regular" Evolver is about $500 USD.  
Multiply
> >    that by four, and you get $2,000 USD.  Even allowing for 
savings due
> >    to the reduction of the count of common items such as the 
enclosure,
> >    power supply, etc., $1,200 to $1,500 USD sounds pretty good to 
me.
> >    If $500 is an "outrageously great value" for a monophonic 
Evolver,
> >    then $1,200 to $1,500 for a four voice Evolver is even more
> >    outrageous.
> 
> these are all good points and they make sense.  it just seems a bit 
odd
> to me. I think that's mainly because I figured that even though the
> Evolver is cheap, Dave probably had some of that price to help him 
gain
> back the money spent in R&D. but since the rack version is very 
similar
> to the Evolver (and Dave said himself it was pretty easy to get it
> working), he probably spent very little on R&D this time around.
> 
> I don't know. the price isn't necessarily out of line with other
> polyphonic analogs out there (for example, the Vermona Perfourmer 
has
> four voices and is about $900, but has no built-in sequencers), but 
I
> just expected a better bargain I guess.
> 
> I mean, last I checked the Andromeda (16 analog voices) was going 
for
> around $1600 used.  it might be difficult (for me at least) to get 
the
> rack Evolver knowing that :-)
> 
> >    Keep in mind that this is not a "virtual analog" machine we're
> >    talking about.  If you want to quadruple the polyphony, you 
have to

> >    quadruple most of the hardware.  Make sense?
> 
> well, except for the digital side.
> 
> Joe

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003, Joe wrote:

> I mean, last I checked the Andromeda (16 analog voices) was going for
> around $1600 used.  it might be difficult (for me at least) to get the
> rack Evolver knowing that :-)

yup... i thought of that when i heard the price. and that's a *sixteen*
voice machine (custom ICs), *with* keyboard and an enormous expanse of
knobs. what are they new nowadays, $1900 USD? granted, much of that price
is likely due to the fact that alesis is an established manufacturer and
has the infrastructure to do this kind of thing more easily.

but as with any instrument, the sound should be the primary lust-inducer.
does anyone have both the evo and the andromeda? how do their sounds
compare? from my limited experience of the andromeda, i'd say its sound is
more raw and vintage than the evo. the evo is much... creamier. heh.

bleep.
out.

---
http://leichenfeld.iuma.com
http://thirdwavecollective.com

On Wed, Oct 22, 2003 at 06:29:00PM -0000, ski_ex5tech wrote:
>    I agree, and that's probably a big part of why the Evo Rack will be
>    $1,200-1,500 - which is 25-40% lower than $2,000.  That still seems
>    like a pretty big price reduction to me, compared to the purchase of
>    four separate mono Evolvers.

true.

>    Regarding the alternative of a used Andromeda...  That's certainly a
>    great alternative for those of us that are OK with purchasing used
>    equipment (which I'd guess includes most people here).  I don't think
>    it's fair to compare those two options on a price/value basis,
>    though, because you're comparing apples and oranges - used vs. new
>    equipment.  Of course the "bank for the buck" is going to be higher
>    for used equipment!  If you could get a USED Evo Rack (obviously not
>    possible yet!), THAT would be a fair price/value comparison to your
>    $1,600 used Andromeda.  :)

I agree with you; it's not fair to compare the relative value or worth
of the two when you're looking at used vs. new.  but I wasn't doing
that; I was just looking at money out of my pocket. and if I can get an
Andromeda (and 12 more analog voices plus tons of control and a
keyboard) for $100-400 more than the Evolver rack then that will be
pretty tempting.

>    If you're in the market for polyphonic analog NOW though, and can't
>    wait for a used Evo Rack, I'd recommend getting the used Andromeda.
>    If you're willing to go VA, rather than RA, then I'd recommend you
>    also take a look at the Alesis Ion, Novation KS series, and Access
>    Virus C (in no particular order), all of which are very nice machines.

I've already got polyphonic VA covered quite well, thank you. (and by
the way, I'm personally not very impressed with the Ion; and there's
some pretty big aliasing issues there as well.) I'm now looking for
analog polyphony! :-)

Joe

Hi Ski,

Do you know if poly-evolver can be used multi-timbrally, not just as a 
4 voice poly instrument?  I often use my evolver for 2-3 different 
parts and then process loops through it or resample things with it when 
working on a song.  I have been thinking about getting another one just 
for processing sounds, but this rack might be a perfect choice...

Anyway, I have to learn to save some money here :-)


-Yutaka

On mercredi, oct 22, 2003, at 19:11 Europe/Paris, ski_ex5tech wrote:

> The Evo Rack hardware is essentially four "regular" Evolvers crammed
> into a 1U rack.  The "regular" Evolver is about $500 USD.  Multiply
> that by four, and you get $2,000 USD.  Even allowing for savings due
> to the reduction of the count of common items such as the enclosure,
> power supply, etc., $1,200 to $1,500 USD sounds pretty good to me.
> If $500 is an "outrageously great value" for a monophonic Evolver,
> then $1,200 to $1,500 for a four voice Evolver is even more
> outrageous.

On Thu, Oct 23, 2003 at 09:15:03AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
>    All, IMHO, of course... :-)

those are all great points; it makes sense that if you can charge $1200+
for it, then you will. I'm just wondering whether or not people will not
buy it because of the price (i.e. has he exceeded the "free buffer" of
interested buyers?).

by the way, you state that he has the market interest now. I agree because
it seems to me that a huge number of people out there really like the
Evolver and have one. I hear/read about it left and right. so I was kind
of surprised when Dave said that Evolver number 1095 would be the first
with the new OS. is that a large number of units to sell in a synth's
(and synth manufacturer's) first year? or am I off base with all of this?

Joe

Joe <jmelnyk@...> writes:
> does that justify the price of $1200 to $1500 though?  Is it just me, or
> does that seem a little high for what the rack will offer?  Maybe I just
> expected it to be an outrageously great value like the Evolver is...

I agree, I'd rather have a lower price, but ... my experience is that
new products are almost _always_ a bit more expensive that you were
hoping for.

After all, if everybody's raving about the price of something, it's likely
that you could charge a bit more for it and they'd still buy it.  From the
profit-making point of view, you want to want to push the price until the
dropoffs in sales exceeds the increase profit; people `raving about the
price' would seem to represent a sort of free buffer where you can increase
the price _without_ a major drop in sales (this isn't entirely true, of
course -- the `raving' is also sort of like free advertising &c; but to
some extent, Dave's already gotten the effect of that from the original
Evolver).

I expect that the original Evolver's great price was not due just to Dave
being a nice guy, but also things like (1) the monophonic synth market is
probably a bit smaller and less certain, (2) it was new, somewhat unique,
product from a small and `unknown' manufacturer, (3) unsureness about the
market.  All of those would suggest an aggressive price to get the market's
attention.  Now he's _got_ the market's attention, and so can probably
afford to push for a bit more profit.

All, IMHO, of course... :-)

-Miles
-- 
Is it true that nothing can be known?  If so how do we know this?  -Woody Allen

Joe <jmelnyk@...> writes:
> I was kind of surprised when Dave said that Evolver number 1095 would
> be the first with the new OS. is that a large number of units to sell
> in a synth's (and synth manufacturer's) first year?

I've no real idea, but given that it's a very niche product from a
microscopic company with no previous market presence, it seems respectable
enough.  From what I've seen in the past (mostly on this list, he's gone
for extremely low overhead with DSI, so you'd think he could generate a
respectable income from $500,000 in synth sales...  and a respectable
income probably means he'll keep at it, which is what we all want. :-)

I guess all the info about sales numbers &c are probably secret, but it
would be interesting to see how things change as things move from only
internet direct sales with no advertising, to traditional distribution /
retail sales / magazine adverts (the Evolver's been showing up in stores
all over here [Tokyo] -- at a hefty markup over Dave's price!).

-Miles
-- 
Saa, shall we dance?  (from a dance-class advertisement)

--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Miles Bader <miles@g...> wrote:

> I agree, I'd rather have a lower price, but ... my experience is 
that
> new products are almost _always_ a bit more expensive that you were
> hoping for.

The Alesis Ion is a recent exception, but they are few and far 
between. 

Sayer

Joe <jmelnyk@...> writes:
> and by the way, I'm personally not very impressed with the Ion; and
> there's some pretty big aliasing issues there as well.

[I've just bought one of these, so I'm naturally a bit biased. :-]

Definitely the Ion's a VA, and has VA issues -- but it's a damn sight
better than any of the competition, especially at the price.  The filter
models especially, are simply great, and in general the Ion exhibits
much _less_ of the sort of annoying behavior we all expect from VAs.

If you look at the novation k-station or whatever, you see a nice price,
but dead-sounding oscillators, filters that sound brittle and cheap at
high resonance, generally feels `fake'.  The Ion is also nicely priced,
but has none of the novation's problems; the oscillators are warm and
nice sounding, the filters sound excellent and really manage to capture
the character of the hardware filters they're modelled after, even when
pushed.

The downsides include a cheapo keyboard, low polyphony, perhaps not the
best quality control around (though the mechanical construction is
generally very good), and crappy alesis support.

It ain't replacing the Evolver, but the Ion's the first VA I've tried
that grabs me in the same way the E does.  They both just feel _good_.

Ahem.

-Miles
-- 
Saa, shall we dance?  (from a dance-class advertisement)

It's my understanding that the Evolver Rack is multitimbral;  even 
the sequencers can be run separately.  I haven't actually been able 
to try a beta unit, though, so I don't know the details of how all 
this is implemented.


Ski
www.ex5tech.com
EX5Tech Evolver forum:
http://www.ex5tech.com/ex5ubb_cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=23


--- In DSI_Evolver@yahoogroups.com, Yutaka Nakamura 
<liquidbrain@n...> wrote:
> Hi Ski,
> 
> Do you know if poly-evolver can be used multi-timbrally, not just 
as a 
> 4 voice poly instrument?  I often use my evolver for 2-3 different 
> parts and then process loops through it or resample things with it 
when 
> working on a song.  I have been thinking about getting another one 
just 
> for processing sounds, but this rack might be a perfect choice...
> 
> Anyway, I have to learn to save some money here :-)
> 
> 
> -Yutaka
> 
> 
> On mercredi, oct 22, 2003, at 19:11 Europe/Paris, ski_ex5tech wrote:
> 
> > The Evo Rack hardware is essentially four "regular" Evolvers 
crammed
> > into a 1U rack.  The "regular" Evolver is about $500 USD.  
Multiply
> > that by four, and you get $2,000 USD.  Even allowing for savings 
due
> > to the reduction of the count of common items such as the 
enclosure,

> > power supply, etc., $1,200 to $1,500 USD sounds pretty good to me.
> > If $500 is an "outrageously great value" for a monophonic Evolver,
> > then $1,200 to $1,500 for a four voice Evolver is even more
> > outrageous.

Hi,
i will buy the eVolVer-Rack and i think that 1200$ are not too much
for what you will get. Together with my normal Evo i will have five
analog voices and filter. Compared to my Perfourmer, Evolver got
masses of modulation capabillity and is more flexibel. The Future
Retro was also more expencieve with one Voice. Look at the price of
the Voyager! The Q+, Andromeda or an real analog Modular-system will
cost also much more. Maybe you can compare an fourVoiceRack to the
Sunsyn with eight voices, and the sunsyn cost also more then the
double price (o.k., more knobs).
But at last, the sound is making me buying an instrument. And the
sound of the evolver is fantastic.
Stefan