Yamaha DTXpress/DTXplorer/DTXtreme

Vern, 

I agree selling anything or copying anything that is not yours is illegal,
which I stated in my original post. I was just addressing the EULA issue.
(Not that is matters but Yamaha does not include any literature with the kit
that says "EULA", if you don't agree, then return the product.) 

The only question is do you have the right to add to the code. In other
words take the original code and don't change it but say add 50 lines of
original code that you originate and write to it and reburn it and put it
back in your module. Thus you have not taken or copied anything at all. Not
much different than adding a second peizo to a drum pad, really. I agree
taking the code from a III and putting it in a II would be illegal. 

What would be interesting is to approach So Tanaka again and try to
determine, since they don't plan on providing an upgrade except through the
complete replacement of the module, if a third party (Pintech) could take
the module and upgrade the chip with different sounds, through a licensing
agreement? Hmmmmmmmm.

Another issue in regards to copyright/trademark/logo is the use of the term
"DTXpress" (as in Yahoogroups/DTXpress) , DTX (as in DTXpressions, or
DTXchange). So Tanaka has brought this to the attention of Jim, that these
logo's our owned by Yamaha and connect be used without their express
permission. This came back to me in a PM from Jim with the Sysex code.  I
have asked Jim to check on whether or not we need to make any changes or if
we are ok. This would also impact the use of the terms on clothing items as
well. ;). This is why the new program that is being worked on can't be
called DTXchange2.


OGD


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Vernon Graner [SMTP:vern@...]
> Sent:	Friday, February 06, 2004 12:39 PM
> To:	DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:	ROMs *can* contain Software! (Was [DTXpress]  DTXpress 3
> sounds)
> 
> <$0.02>
> oldguydrummer said:
> > I don't beleive EULA applies to a product, typically just software.
> > There isn't any software included with the Dtxpress II, just
> > Hardware.
> 
> Hmmm have to disagree with you there. Just because software doesn't come
> on CDROM or floppy, doesn't mean you were not provided with software. The
> Software is saved to Read Only Memory chips (ROMs) inside the DTXPress
> brain and it is very much covered under an end user license agreement.
> 
> You will typically find that all commercial software is covered with a
> slew of restrictions on its use. The ROMs in the DTXpress are covered
> under the same EULA as any other software provided by Yamaha with their
> products. I'd be willing to bet any Yamaha rep would back me up on this.
> 
> > And as such there is no "end user" but rather an "owner".
> 
> This is a surprisingly widely held (and very wrong!) conclusion. Just
> about every piece of digital electronic equipment has a microcontroller
> of some type in it. These itty-bitty computers each have software that
> guides their actions, and someone wrote that software and someone
> (intrinsicly) has a copyright on it. For an example of one of these tiny,
> embedable computers (which I use a bunch myself) look here:
> 
> <http://www.parallax.com>
> 
> The Basic Stamp is the one I use for small projects.
> 
> > The software you buy is licensed for use, you as the purchaser do not
> > own the software, you are given, a grant of usage for a specified
> > period of time.
> 
> Absolutely correct!
> 
> > Thus as an "Owner" of the product and not licensee
> > you would not be subject to a EULA.
> 
> This conclusion doesn't follow. If I purchase the DTXpress unit, I own
> the metal, plastic and silicon, but I do not *own* the software code that
> makes the contraption useful. I can do as I please with the physical
> pieces (except of course copy any aspect of the system covered by a
> patent, but thats a different thread all together!) but I am not allowed
> to extract the software that makes the machine run, and then copy and
> sell it to others. In fact the "classic Game" industry has had problems
> with this for quite a while.
> 
> If I were to follow the reasoning above, I would be able to purchase a
> stand-up "PACMAN" machine, remove and copy the ROMS and then sell them to
> people to use with a software product like "MAME" ( <http://www.mame.net/>
> ).
> 
> To be clear: When ROMS contain software, the copying of that software is
> at the discretion of the copyright holder.
> 
> The reason I had to chime in on this is that I just finished getting my 
> Certified Software Asset Manager (CSAM) certificate from IAITAM
> ( <http://www.iaitam.org)> and the legal use of software is the core of
> this
> course.
> 
> I could carry on an in depth discussion about this and about how I think
> some of the EULA restrictions by some of the manufacturers of software
> are despicable, but thats not a topic for *this* forum. ;)
> 
> Suffice to say, the DTXpress forum does not condone, nor will we allow
> the discussion of, methods to deprive vendors of their intellectual
> property.
> 
> If you need new ROMs, contact Yamaha and ask them. They've provided them
> to other users without charge in the past. Lets not give them a reason to
> worry. :)
> 
> Vern
> 
> --
> Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE     | "If the network is down, then you're
> Senior Systems Engineer     | obviously incompetent so why are we
> Texas Information Services | paying you? Of course, if the network
> <http://www.txis.com>         | is up, then we obviously don't need
> Austin Office 512 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" \ufffdVLG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Community email addresses:
>    Post message: DTXpress@yahoogroups.com
>    Subscribe:     DTXpress-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>    Unsubscribe:   DTXpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>    List owner:    DTXpress-owner@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DTXpress>
> 
> Alternate DTXpress site:
>    <http://www.dtxpressions.com> 
> 
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> *	To visit your group on the web, go to:
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DTXpress/>
>    
> *	To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> DTXpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DTXpress-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>    
> *	Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>. 
> 
> 
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--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, rdamon@m... wrote:
> What would be interesting is to approach So Tanaka again and try to
> determine, since they don't plan on providing an upgrade except 
through the
> complete replacement of the module, if a third party (Pintech) 
could take
> the module and upgrade the chip with different sounds, through a 
licensing
> agreement? Hmmmmmmmm.

Speaking of interesting, where is Yamaha getting its cymbal samples 
in the first place?  And how would a third party procure other 
desirable ones for a new chip that would not cost at least as much as 
a module?

ED, et. al.:

Hopefully I haven't stepped on anyones toes while I've been trying to be
helpful/informative. If my comments came across as arrogant or preachy, I
abjectly beg forgiveness as it was not my intent... :D

I think we may be ranging a bit far afield here, but I'm happy to
continue the discussion if the members think there is a benefit to doing
so. If people would prefer we keep the discussion to more fundamental
drumming, then let me know and I'll shut up! ;) Frankly, these are the
types of discussions that intrigue me so I'll add some fuel to this fire
here:

rdamon@... said:
> (Not that is matters but Yamaha does not include any literature
> with the kit that says "EULA", if you don't agree, then return
> the product.)

This is one of those grey areas since they *do* have a copyright on the
code inside the module. Whether or not they *have* to warn you to not
violate the agreement is debatable. Besides, they may have posted the
notice in some place you are unaware of...

<DIGRESS>
    \ufffdBut Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning
office for the last nine months.\ufffd

    \ufffdOh yes, well, as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them,
yesterday afternoon. You hadn\ufffdt exactly gone out of your way to call
attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or
anything.\ufffd

    \ufffdBut the plans were on display...\ufffd

    \ufffdOn display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.\ufffd

    \ufffdThat\ufffds the display department.\ufffd

    \ufffdWith a flashlight.\ufffd

    \ufffdAh, well, the lights had probably gone.\ufffd

    \ufffdSo had the stairs.\ufffd

    \ufffdBut look, you found the notice, didn\ufffdt you?\ufffd

    \ufffdYes,\ufffd said Arthur, \ufffdyes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a
locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the
door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.'\ufffd)
</DIGRESS>

> The only question is do you have the right to add to the code.
> In other words take the original code and don't change it but
> say add 50 lines of original code that you originate and write
> to it and reburn it and put it  back in your module. Thus you
> have not taken or copied anything at all.

However, you would probably run afoul of the "decompile/reverse engineer"
restriction of just about every EULA I've seen. In order to add your "50
lines of code" you would almost certainly have to decompile the object
code in the ROM back to human-readable "source" code before it could be
modified. You would have to be (or get the assistance of) a programmer
with in depth knowledge of the language used to create the source code to
assist you in creating the patch, then modify the original code to be
"aware" of the patch and know when to "jump" to it. A very non-trivial
task.

Now, if you do manage to do this yourself, in the privacy of your own
home, and do not share the results with anyone, you should be safe from
repercussions. Or, if you were to tie this into a research project for
educational purposes, you might be able to claim the safe harbor of "fair
use", but we're getting into some very murky waters, and you have to try
to figure out if the cost/risk/investment would be worth the benefit.

> Not much different than adding a second peizo to a drum pad, really.

Though not much different from a practical standpoint, it's MUCH
different from a *legal* standpoint, and thats what makes me steam about
software copyright law. The Software Industry has managed to get quite a
few things put into law that allows them ridiculous latitude and takes
away as many rights from the customer as it can. For example, look at
this law sometime:

http://archive.infoworld.com/ucita/

Here's just a few provisions from that:

UCITA would let a vendor:

* Disclaim liability for any damages incurred by software it knew to be
buggy.

* Prevent buyers from selling or giving away any computer software that
they no longer intend to use.

* Prohibit buyers from using software that came bundled with a PC on
other computers, even after erasing it from the original system.

* Notify users of a change in the terms of a license (such as fees for
online services) simply by posting an announcement on its Web site.

* Claim UCITA protection for music CDs, so buyers might not be able to
sell or give away a used CD or record it in MP3 format for personal use.

> I agree taking the code from a III and putting it in
> a II would be illegal.

Illegality probably isn't as big an issue as practicality. I'll bet it
would be very difficult. Much easier to buy the III and sell the II.

> What would be interesting is to approach So Tanaka again and
> try to determine, since they don't plan on providing an upgrade
> except through the complete replacement of the module, if a
> third party (Pintech) could take the module and upgrade the
> chip with different sounds, through a licensing  agreement?

By granting such exception, Yamaha would be creating a precedent for 3rd
parties to modify and/or upgrade their code. It would be a precedent that
could possibly be used against them if they decided to try and bar a 3rd
party from creating an add on or upgrade to their product that they felt
was bad for their business. I would very much doubt that you would get
such permission.

> Hmmmmmmmm.

Indeed... :)

> Another issue in regards to copyright/trademark/logo is the use
> of the term  "DTXpress" (as in Yahoogroups/DTXpress) , DTX (as in
> DTXpressions, or DTXchange). So Tanaka has brought this to the
> attention of Jim, that these logo's our owned by Yamaha and
> connect be used without their express permission.

Interestingly enough, the web site was created by Giles Hearns and he
mentioned to me that he had obtained permission to use the name. In fact,
he has a disclaimer on the web site front page that explicitly states the
site is not affiliated but the trademark and logo are use with
permission. I s'pose I should try and reach him to see how the permission
was obtained as , frankly, I don't know. I figure if Yamaha asks the site
name to change and or the domain to be turned over, I'll just have to do
it. :(

> This came back to me in a PM from Jim with the Sysex code.
> I have asked Jim to check on whether or not we need to
> make any changes or if we are ok.

Keep me in the loop on this. I'd like to know what the provisions are for
using the name or portions of it for user groups etc.

> This would also impact the use of the terms on clothing
> items as well. ;).

Heh! They can have my shirt when they pry it from my cold dead... you get
the picture.. :)

Vern

PS: Can you tell it's Friday at my office and not much is happening here? :)

--
Vern Graner CNE/CNA/SSE    | "If the network is down, then you're
Senior Systems Engineer    | obviously incompetent so why are we
Texas Information Services | paying you? Of course, if the network
http://www.txis.com        | is up, then we obviously don't need
Austin Office 512 328-8947 | you, so why are we paying you?" \ufffdVLG

--- In DTXpress@yahoogroups.com, "Vernon Graner" <vern@t...> wrote:
> ED, et. al.:
[many interesting and valuable things follow]

Vern,

I, for one, welcome your (and OGD's) inclination and ability to break 
down some of these issues to their finer points. This being an 
ELECTRONIC drums site, any number of issues from the world of 
computing, intellectual property, etc. become relevant. We 
grasshoppers all have much to learn about many things, and this site 
gives us a good chance to do it. The group as a whole has a great 
ability to change directions as need be.

Being rather simple-minded, I thought that Pedro was asking a simple 
question. Only by reading your answer did I realize that much more 
could be said. 

Forgive me for indulging in backslapping; I'm only going to say this 
once (actually, I might say it again). When I asked you and OGD to 
join me as moderators on this board 25 years ago, I had more than a 
sneaky suspicion about how well that might work out. This place has 
definitely become a class act. I've been reading a lot of self-
congratulatory posts elsewhere, and I'm just shallow enough to want 
to blow our horn, too.

In case anyone is reading this, the shirt that Vern is so determined 
to protect is one of the DTXpress/DTXpression t-shirts that I had 
made for the moderators and planned to offer to other members who 
wanted them. But, like almost every other product in the world of e-
drumming, the t-shirts face some legal obstacles.

Ed