Digital BW, The Print

Martin,

As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am interested 
in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at hand, but I 
do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also 
supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I used 
this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The prints 
were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment layer. 
However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color cart 
started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it certainly 
made a mess of my b/w 1280.

Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen sink 
with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are 
different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with water, and 
put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first 
interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious 
difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. The MS-GK, 
on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very purple/red/magenta) 
content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is the PT-
K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by 
incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking pad? Or 
was it just a bad fill job?

Best.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@p...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 10:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test
> 
> 
> > On 9/1/02 9:35 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > > As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of 
activation
> > > energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader 
experience in the
> > > coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic 
reaction is
> in
> > > the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated 
by photo
> > > energy or something else?
> >
> > I'm most certain that it is the "dyestuff" that they are adding 
that's
> > burning off.  This looks like what happens to the 25% dye in the 
Gen4 (Gen
> > Enhanced) black.  I was hoping for better technology than 
this...but I
> agree
> > it is disappointing.  The problem at this point is that we really 
do need
> a
> > failure point.  If Paul's 300hr equals 100 Wilhelm years we may 
not have a
> > problem...but if it doesn't...what does it equal?
> 
> Exactly. Paul has some 2200 wedges to test against a couple of the 
quad
> sets. This will give us a data point compared to an ink with 
some "Wilhelm
> years" attached to it but even then I am uncomfortable in drawing 
real life
> conclusions since Wilhelm and his customers are not showing 
us "before" and
> "after" images of the aged prints or test targets or data. I think 
that MIS
> was the only exception in their sharing of their RIT data.
> >
> > > At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's 
fluorescent
> tubes.
> > > Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source 
to be
> more
> > > damaging.
> >
> > Hard to say...my guess is that Paul's fader errs on the side of 
having too
> > much heat build up...this could greatly accelerate oxidation.  The
> > commercial fade-o-meters carefully manage heat through the use of 
constant
> > rotation and cooling fans.
> 
> Good point. The heat factor could make Paul's test a much more 
brutal one
> which would speak highly of the inks that faired well but would not
> necessarily reflect so badly on those that did not.
> >
> > I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most 
fade
> > resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what 
exactly is
> the
> > difference?
> 
> I believe the FS and VM black are the same at this point and only 
the MIS
> original quads K is different.
> 
> >  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
> > Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and 
color of the
> > rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black 
across
> all
> > the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.
> 
> The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT 
black is red
> warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of 
both worlds
> as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer 
to
> FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some 
empty carts
> for the 1280 so I should give it a try. I mixed some PT and VM 
blacks
> together tonight to see if there are any obvious adverse reactions 
since Jon
> was explicit about purging between original Piezo and PiezoTone. 
Even though
> the inks would be in separate chambers and nozzles Tyler pointed 
out to me
> that he had lost a head due to parking pad contamination between
> incompatible inks a few years ago. In smelling the two inks the VM 
k has
> that familiar heavy molecular weight alcohol or perhaps a glycol 
smell while
> the PT k smells more like IPA or ethanol. Miss having a lab handy!
> 
> >  I know when I have talked
> > to Bill and Jon about this they have mentioned that they have 
considered
> > offering an all pigment black for those who are really set on 
having the
> > best longevity.
> 
> Well I think that they really ought to do that. They would really 
only need
> to offer it in bottles as I think most of the heavy users are 
working with
> CIS or hand filling. This then raises the problems of the software. 
We
> already have reports of poor profile matches with some printer/paper
> combinations with the Selenium PT and changing the black would add 
to the
> problems. Obviously from the way Jon is burning his bridges with 
Sundance on
> his list I don't expect any new profiles for the Piezo driver and 
the
> PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless 
they want to
> greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and 
slash the
> price.
> 
> I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the 
benefit
> of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the 
R9 plugin
> as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of 
view
> Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone 
else. I
> certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new 
version that
> had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.
> 
> We seem to be in a bit of a new ink/software gap.
> 
> Martin Wesley