Digital BW, The Print

Three PiezoTone test strips reached 300 hours (actually 304 hours) in my
fader Saturday.  They were PiezoTone Selenium (PT-S) on PhotoRag (PR), PT-S
on Epson Archival Matte (EAM), and, for comparison purposes, PiezoTone-Warm
Neutral (PT-WN) on EAM.

In general, there were no surprises.  The PT-S midtones performed extremely
well, with very minimal fade and virtually no midtone warming.

The black ink, however, showed substantial fade and warming, which, with the
cooler PT-S midtones, causes a significant neutral-to-warm cross-over
between 85% and 95%.  Whether this is a problem in your particular prints is
a subjective issue.  However, the resulting prints are not truly "selenium"
tone after the shadow tones have warmed up.  At least with my selenium-toned
silver prints the shadows get increasingly cool, not warm, as the density
increases.

A scan of the test strips can be seen in the Files section of this forum.
The files section is at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

Then following the links:  Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones.  The file name is
"PT-Sel-PR & EAM PT-NW-EAM 304 Hr Fade.jpg."

Also, as expected, the black ink showed less fading and warming on EAM than
on PhotoRag.  The 100% patch droped from a density of 1.82 to 1.64 on PR; it
dropped from 1.71 to 1.62 on EAM.  The PR 100% patch warmed 0.11 units,
while the EAM 100% patch warmed 0.06 units.  (Warming is measured as the
change in the difference between the cyan and yellow readings.)

Note that these test strips were printed by Martin using a 1280 and CIS.  As
such, they appear to have been totally unaffected by the problems Jon Cone
described in his August 29 "PiezoTone News" posting on the Piezo 3000 forum.
See
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/19609

Also cross-posted by Julian at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/18795

The problem Jon described appears to be ink separation caused by the sponge
material used in certain 1280 pre-loaded carts.  They are changeing carts,
but appear also to be changing the dispersion characteristics of the PT-S
inks.  As such, the final PT-S formula may be slightly different than this
one.

The X-Rite densitometer readings are below.

PT-S PR 50%	Control: c=0.69, m=0.71, y=0.72, visual=0.70;
		 304 Hr: c=0.68, m=0.70, y=0.71, visual=0.69;

	 100%	Control: c=1.82, m=1.81, y=1.80, visual=1.82;
		 304 Hr: c=1.61, m=1.68, y=1.70, visual=1.64;

	85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
		Control: 85% 0.01 unit cool to 95% 0.03 cool;
		304 Hr:  85% c=y (neutral) to 95% 0.08 warm.


PT-S EAM 50% Control: c=0.68, m=0.69, y=0.68, visual=0.69;
		  304 Hr: c=0.68, m=0.69, y=0.69, visual=0.69;

	  100% Control: c=1.71, m=1.72, y=1.72, visual=1.71;
		  304 Hr: c=1.60, m=1.65, y=1.67, visual=1.62;

	85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
		Control: 85% 0.01 cool to 95% c=y (neutral);
		 304 Hr: 85% 0.01 warm to 95% 0.07 warm.

PT-WN EAM 50% Control: c=0.64, m=0.65, y=0.67, visual=0.65;
		   304 Hr: c=0.66, m=0.67, y=0.70, visual=0.67;

	   100% Control: c=1.70, m=1.72, y=1.74, visual=1.71;
		   304 Hr: c=1.64, m=1.68, y=1.70, visual=1.66;

	85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
		Control: 85% 0.02 warm to 95% 0.02 warm
		 304 Hr: 85% 0.03 warm to 95% 0.06 warm.


Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

Forgive me if you have already answered this before...but what are the
wavelength characteristics of the light source in your fader?  I'm a little
confused as to why the Xenon lightsource fades that RIT are doing of these
same inks are not showing this same pattern of results.

Robert

On 9/1/02 12:12 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Three PiezoTone test strips reached 300 hours (actually 304 hours) in my
> fader Saturday.  They were PiezoTone Selenium (PT-S) on PhotoRag (PR), PT-S
> on Epson Archival Matte (EAM), and, for comparison purposes, PiezoTone-Warm
> Neutral (PT-WN) on EAM.
> 
> In general, there were no surprises.  The PT-S midtones performed extremely
> well, with very minimal fade and virtually no midtone warming.
> 
> The black ink, however, showed substantial fade and warming, which, with the
> cooler PT-S midtones, causes a significant neutral-to-warm cross-over
> between 85% and 95%.  Whether this is a problem in your particular prints is
> a subjective issue.  However, the resulting prints are not truly "selenium"
> tone after the shadow tones have warmed up.  At least with my selenium-toned
> silver prints the shadows get increasingly cool, not warm, as the density
> increases.
> 
> A scan of the test strips can be seen in the Files section of this forum.
> The files section is at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> Then following the links:  Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones.  The file name is
> "PT-Sel-PR & EAM PT-NW-EAM 304 Hr Fade.jpg."
> 
> Also, as expected, the black ink showed less fading and warming on EAM than
> on PhotoRag.  The 100% patch droped from a density of 1.82 to 1.64 on PR; it
> dropped from 1.71 to 1.62 on EAM.  The PR 100% patch warmed 0.11 units,
> while the EAM 100% patch warmed 0.06 units.  (Warming is measured as the
> change in the difference between the cyan and yellow readings.)
> 
> Note that these test strips were printed by Martin using a 1280 and CIS.  As
> such, they appear to have been totally unaffected by the problems Jon Cone
> described in his August 29 "PiezoTone News" posting on the Piezo 3000 forum.
> See
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/19609
> 
> Also cross-posted by Julian at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/18795
> 
> The problem Jon described appears to be ink separation caused by the sponge
> material used in certain 1280 pre-loaded carts.  They are changeing carts,
> but appear also to be changing the dispersion characteristics of the PT-S
> inks.  As such, the final PT-S formula may be slightly different than this
> one.
> 
> The X-Rite densitometer readings are below.
> 
> PT-S PR 50%    Control: c=0.69, m=0.71, y=0.72, visual=0.70;
> 304 Hr: c=0.68, m=0.70, y=0.71, visual=0.69;
> 
> 100%    Control: c=1.82, m=1.81, y=1.80, visual=1.82;
> 304 Hr: c=1.61, m=1.68, y=1.70, visual=1.64;
> 
> 85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
> Control: 85% 0.01 unit cool to 95% 0.03 cool;
> 304 Hr:  85% c=y (neutral) to 95% 0.08 warm.
> 
> 
> PT-S EAM 50% Control: c=0.68, m=0.69, y=0.68, visual=0.69;
>  304 Hr: c=0.68, m=0.69, y=0.69, visual=0.69;
> 
>  100% Control: c=1.71, m=1.72, y=1.72, visual=1.71;
>  304 Hr: c=1.60, m=1.65, y=1.67, visual=1.62;
> 
> 85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
> Control: 85% 0.01 cool to 95% c=y (neutral);
> 304 Hr: 85% 0.01 warm to 95% 0.07 warm.
> 
> PT-WN EAM 50% Control: c=0.64, m=0.65, y=0.67, visual=0.65;
>   304 Hr: c=0.66, m=0.67, y=0.70, visual=0.67;
> 
>   100% Control: c=1.70, m=1.72, y=1.74, visual=1.71;
>   304 Hr: c=1.64, m=1.68, y=1.70, visual=1.66;
> 
> 85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
> Control: 85% 0.02 warm to 95% 0.02 warm
> 304 Hr: 85% 0.03 warm to 95% 0.06 warm.
> 
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>

Robert,

You wrote:

>Forgive me if you have already answered this before...but what are the
>wavelength characteristics of the light source in your fader?  I'm a little
>confused as to why the Xenon lightsource fades that RIT are doing of these
>same inks are not showing this same pattern of results.

I use fluorescent light.  I'm aware that it has some spikes in the spectrum,
but I have not seen anything very convincing that these make a significant
difference.  Also, the light level I use is much less intense than some of
the Xenon light sources that are used to accelerate fading.  As such, I
think my procedure may suffer from less of the reciprocity effects.

At any rate, none of these fade tests is perfect, but I'm convinced they are
better than nothing.  I note that Wilhelm still appears to use a fluorescent
light source.

Have you seen any RIT results with the PiezoTone inksets?  I'd like to see
what they look like.  When I compare the graphs of the fading I get with my
fluorescent light source, they look similar to the RIT graphs of the MIS
Archival color inks that MIS has published on its website.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_________________________________________


On 9/1/02 12:12 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Three PiezoTone test strips reached 300 hours (actually 304 hours) in my
> fader Saturday.  They were PiezoTone Selenium (PT-S) on PhotoRag (PR),
PT-S
> on Epson Archival Matte (EAM), and, for comparison purposes,
PiezoTone-Warm
> Neutral (PT-WN) on EAM.
>
> In general, there were no surprises.  The PT-S midtones performed
extremely
> well, with very minimal fade and virtually no midtone warming.
>
> The black ink, however, showed substantial fade and warming, which, with
the
> cooler PT-S midtones, causes a significant neutral-to-warm cross-over
> between 85% and 95%.  Whether this is a problem in your particular prints
is
> a subjective issue.  However, the resulting prints are not truly
"selenium"
> tone after the shadow tones have warmed up.  At least with my
selenium-toned
> silver prints the shadows get increasingly cool, not warm, as the density
> increases.
>
> A scan of the test strips can be seen in the Files section of this forum.
> The files section is at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> Then following the links:  Files > Ink Sets > PiezoTones.  The file name
is
> "PT-Sel-PR & EAM PT-NW-EAM 304 Hr Fade.jpg."
>
> Also, as expected, the black ink showed less fading and warming on EAM
than
> on PhotoRag.  The 100% patch dropped from a density of 1.82 to 1.64 on PR;
it
> dropped from 1.71 to 1.62 on EAM.  The PR 100% patch warmed 0.11 units,
> while the EAM 100% patch warmed 0.06 units.  (Warming is measured as the
> change in the difference between the cyan and yellow readings.)
>
> Note that these test strips were printed by Martin using a 1280 and CIS.
As
> such, they appear to have been totally unaffected by the problems Jon Cone
> described in his August 29 "PiezoTone News" posting on the Piezo 3000
forum.
> See
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/19609
>
> Also cross-posted by Julian at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/18795
>
> The problem Jon described appears to be ink separation caused by the
sponge

> material used in certain 1280 pre-loaded carts.  They are changing carts,
> but appear also to be changing the dispersion characteristics of the PT-S
> inks.  As such, the final PT-S formula may be slightly different than this
> one.
>
> The X-Rite densitometer readings are below.
>
> PT-S PR 50%    Control: c=0.69, m=0.71, y=0.72, visual=0.70;
> 304 Hr: c=0.68, m=0.70, y=0.71, visual=0.69;
>
> 100%    Control: c=1.82, m=1.81, y=1.80, visual=1.82;
> 304 Hr: c=1.61, m=1.68, y=1.70, visual=1.64;
>
> 85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
> Control: 85% 0.01 unit cool to 95% 0.03 cool;
> 304 Hr:  85% c=y (neutral) to 95% 0.08 warm.
>
>
> PT-S EAM 50% Control: c=0.68, m=0.69, y=0.68, visual=0.69;
>  304 Hr: c=0.68, m=0.69, y=0.69, visual=0.69;
>
>  100% Control: c=1.71, m=1.72, y=1.72, visual=1.71;
>  304 Hr: c=1.60, m=1.65, y=1.67, visual=1.62;
>
> 85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
> Control: 85% 0.01 cool to 95% c=y (neutral);
> 304 Hr: 85% 0.01 warm to 95% 0.07 warm.
>
> PT-WN EAM 50% Control: c=0.64, m=0.65, y=0.67, visual=0.65;
>   304 Hr: c=0.66, m=0.67, y=0.70, visual=0.67;
>
>   100% Control: c=1.70, m=1.72, y=1.74, visual=1.71;
>   304 Hr: c=1.64, m=1.68, y=1.70, visual=1.66;
>
> 85% to 95% tone change (change in [c-y]):
> Control: 85% 0.02 warm to 95% 0.02 warm
> 304 Hr: 85% 0.03 warm to 95% 0.06 warm.
>
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

On 9/1/02 4:30 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
>> Forgive me if you have already answered this before...but what are the
>> wavelength characteristics of the light source in your fader?  I'm a little
>> confused as to why the Xenon lightsource fades that RIT are doing of these
>> same inks are not showing this same pattern of results.
> 
> I use fluorescent light.  I'm aware that it has some spikes in the spectrum,
> but I have not seen anything very convincing that these make a significant
> difference.  Also, the light level I use is much less intense than some of
> the Xenon light sources that are used to accelerate fading.  As such, I
> think my procedure may suffer from less of the reciprocity effects.
> 
> At any rate, none of these fade tests is perfect, but I'm convinced they are
> better than nothing.  I note that Wilhelm still appears to use a fluorescent
> light source.

I don't know what Henry uses, but I know that Xenon is absolutely the
standard in the field.

> Have you seen any RIT results with the PiezoTone inksets?

Yes, but they are the same ones that we have all seen posted on the
piezo3000 list at 100 hours.  In speaking to Jon, I know that he is having
the full RIT testing done...and that the results are well out beyond 300
hours using their Xenon source and that the inks set hasn't failed yet...but
RIT standards.

> I'd like to see
> what they look like.  When I compare the graphs of the fading I get with my
> fluorescent light source, they look similar to the RIT graphs of the MIS
> Archival color inks that MIS has published on its website.
> 
Me too.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test


> On 9/1/02 4:30 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>

(big snip)

> Yes, but they are the same ones that we have all seen posted on the
> piezo3000 list at 100 hours.  In speaking to Jon, I know that he is having
> the full RIT testing done...and that the results are well out beyond 300
> hours using their Xenon source and that the inks set hasn't failed
yet...but
> RIT standards.

Robert,

That has always been the question. RIT standards or Wilhelm standard. From
the published info on the MIS tests in '99 they consider 65% retention to be
the fail point. That seems really low to me. I would much rather see the
CYMK density graphs than to get a "display life" value. I suspect a lot of
us would consider a 5% or 10% image loss a failure.

While Paul's tests don't give us a specific value for print life they do
give us very real head-to-head comparisons of the materials.

The results on the Selenium PiezoTone are pretty disappointing since I like
the inks so much. The failure of the black in the Warm Neutral PT set was
not so disturbing since no unpleasant crossover was created. I think that
this is a much more serious issue than the current blue separation in the
1280 cartridges Jon has been posting about.

Also thinking back to Jon's Xenon fade test of the prints compared to Paul's
fade test of the wedges I think the same warm/fade phenomenon is evident
although we do not have any sensitometry data from Jon.

As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of activation
energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader experience in the
coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic reaction is in
the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated by photo
energy or something else?

At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's fluorescent tubes.
Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source to be more
damaging.

Martin Wesley

On 9/1/02 9:35 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of activation
> energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader experience in the
> coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic reaction is in
> the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated by photo
> energy or something else?

I'm most certain that it is the "dyestuff" that they are adding that's
burning off.  This looks like what happens to the 25% dye in the Gen4 (Gen
Enhanced) black.  I was hoping for better technology than this...but I agree
it is disappointing.  The problem at this point is that we really do need a
failure point.  If Paul's 300hr equals 100 Wilhelm years we may not have a
problem...but if it doesn't...what does it equal?

> At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's fluorescent tubes.
> Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source to be more
> damaging.

Hard to say...my guess is that Paul's fader errs on the side of having too
much heat build up...this could greatly accelerate oxidation.  The
commerical fade-o-meters carefully manage heat through the use of constant
rotation and cooling fans.

I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most fade
resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what exactly is the
difference?  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and color of the
rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black across all
the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.  I know when I have talked
to Bill and Jon about this they have mentioned that they have considered
offering an all pigment black for those who are really set on having the
best longevity.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test


> On 9/1/02 9:35 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
> > As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of activation
> > energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader experience in the
> > coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic reaction is
in
> > the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated by photo
> > energy or something else?
>
> I'm most certain that it is the "dyestuff" that they are adding that's
> burning off.  This looks like what happens to the 25% dye in the Gen4 (Gen
> Enhanced) black.  I was hoping for better technology than this...but I
agree
> it is disappointing.  The problem at this point is that we really do need
a
> failure point.  If Paul's 300hr equals 100 Wilhelm years we may not have a
> problem...but if it doesn't...what does it equal?

Exactly. Paul has some 2200 wedges to test against a couple of the quad
sets. This will give us a data point compared to an ink with some "Wilhelm
years" attached to it but even then I am uncomfortable in drawing real life
conclusions since Wilhelm and his customers are not showing us "before" and
"after" images of the aged prints or test targets or data. I think that MIS
was the only exception in their sharing of their RIT data.
>
> > At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's fluorescent
tubes.
> > Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source to be
more
> > damaging.
>
> Hard to say...my guess is that Paul's fader errs on the side of having too
> much heat build up...this could greatly accelerate oxidation.  The
> commercial fade-o-meters carefully manage heat through the use of constant
> rotation and cooling fans.

Good point. The heat factor could make Paul's test a much more brutal one
which would speak highly of the inks that faired well but would not
necessarily reflect so badly on those that did not.
>
> I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most fade
> resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what exactly is
the
> difference?

I believe the FS and VM black are the same at this point and only the MIS
original quads K is different.

>  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
> Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and color of the
> rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black across
all
> the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.

The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT black is red
warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of both worlds
as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer to
FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some empty carts
for the 1280 so I should give it a try. I mixed some PT and VM blacks
together tonight to see if there are any obvious adverse reactions since Jon
was explicit about purging between original Piezo and PiezoTone. Even though
the inks would be in separate chambers and nozzles Tyler pointed out to me
that he had lost a head due to parking pad contamination between
incompatible inks a few years ago. In smelling the two inks the VM k has
that familiar heavy molecular weight alcohol or perhaps a glycol smell while
the PT k smells more like IPA or ethanol. Miss having a lab handy!

>  I know when I have talked
> to Bill and Jon about this they have mentioned that they have considered
> offering an all pigment black for those who are really set on having the
> best longevity.

Well I think that they really ought to do that. They would really only need
to offer it in bottles as I think most of the heavy users are working with
CIS or hand filling. This then raises the problems of the software. We
already have reports of poor profile matches with some printer/paper
combinations with the Selenium PT and changing the black would add to the
problems. Obviously from the way Jon is burning his bridges with Sundance on
his list I don't expect any new profiles for the Piezo driver and the
PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless they want to
greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and slash the
price.

I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the benefit
of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the R9 plugin
as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of view
Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone else. I
certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new version that
had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.

We seem to be in a bit of a new ink/software gap.

Martin Wesley

Martin,

As you and I discussed on the phone a few days back, I am interested 
in the deeper blacks of the new PT inks. I do not have at hand, but I 
do have MediaStreet Generations Black (MS-GK). These inks also 
supposedely have dye content in it to give the deeper black. I used 
this ink with FS-N (vacuum filled virgin carts, not CIS). The prints 
were very, very nice once I created a new curves adjustment layer. 
However, within a few prints, one a 12 x 18 print, the color cart 
started to leak like crazy (!). I dont know why, but it certainly 
made a mess of my b/w 1280.

Not wanting to give up completely, I played around the kitchen sink 
with FS-NK and the MS-GK. It is incredible how these inks are 
different. I took two very white porcelin cups filled with water, and 
put a drop of each of these inks in them each. Even the first 
interaction with water is very different. But the most obvious 
difference is that FS-NK is very neutral, and single hued. The MS-GK, 
on the otherhand, separates out into a dye (very purple/red/magenta) 
content and more or less masks any native pigment color. So is the PT-
K the same as MS-GK? And was my cartridge dripping caused by 
incompatibilities between FS-N and MS-GK when on the parking pad? Or 
was it just a bad fill job?

Best.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@p...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 10:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test
> 
> 
> > On 9/1/02 9:35 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> >
> > > As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of 
activation
> > > energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader 
experience in the
> > > coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic 
reaction is
> in
> > > the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated 
by photo
> > > energy or something else?
> >
> > I'm most certain that it is the "dyestuff" that they are adding 
that's
> > burning off.  This looks like what happens to the 25% dye in the 
Gen4 (Gen
> > Enhanced) black.  I was hoping for better technology than 
this...but I
> agree
> > it is disappointing.  The problem at this point is that we really 
do need
> a
> > failure point.  If Paul's 300hr equals 100 Wilhelm years we may 
not have a
> > problem...but if it doesn't...what does it equal?
> 
> Exactly. Paul has some 2200 wedges to test against a couple of the 
quad
> sets. This will give us a data point compared to an ink with 
some "Wilhelm
> years" attached to it but even then I am uncomfortable in drawing 
real life
> conclusions since Wilhelm and his customers are not showing 
us "before" and
> "after" images of the aged prints or test targets or data. I think 
that MIS
> was the only exception in their sharing of their RIT data.
> >
> > > At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's 
fluorescent
> tubes.
> > > Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source 
to be
> more
> > > damaging.
> >
> > Hard to say...my guess is that Paul's fader errs on the side of 
having too
> > much heat build up...this could greatly accelerate oxidation.  The
> > commercial fade-o-meters carefully manage heat through the use of 
constant
> > rotation and cooling fans.
> 
> Good point. The heat factor could make Paul's test a much more 
brutal one
> which would speak highly of the inks that faired well but would not
> necessarily reflect so badly on those that did not.
> >
> > I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most 
fade
> > resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what 
exactly is
> the
> > difference?
> 
> I believe the FS and VM black are the same at this point and only 
the MIS
> original quads K is different.
> 
> >  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
> > Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and 
color of the
> > rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black 
across
> all
> > the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.
> 
> The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT 
black is red
> warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of 
both worlds
> as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer 
to
> FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some 
empty carts
> for the 1280 so I should give it a try. I mixed some PT and VM 
blacks
> together tonight to see if there are any obvious adverse reactions 
since Jon
> was explicit about purging between original Piezo and PiezoTone. 
Even though
> the inks would be in separate chambers and nozzles Tyler pointed 
out to me
> that he had lost a head due to parking pad contamination between
> incompatible inks a few years ago. In smelling the two inks the VM 
k has
> that familiar heavy molecular weight alcohol or perhaps a glycol 
smell while
> the PT k smells more like IPA or ethanol. Miss having a lab handy!
> 
> >  I know when I have talked
> > to Bill and Jon about this they have mentioned that they have 
considered
> > offering an all pigment black for those who are really set on 
having the
> > best longevity.
> 
> Well I think that they really ought to do that. They would really 
only need
> to offer it in bottles as I think most of the heavy users are 
working with
> CIS or hand filling. This then raises the problems of the software. 
We
> already have reports of poor profile matches with some printer/paper
> combinations with the Selenium PT and changing the black would add 
to the
> problems. Obviously from the way Jon is burning his bridges with 
Sundance on
> his list I don't expect any new profiles for the Piezo driver and 
the
> PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless 
they want to
> greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and 
slash the
> price.
> 
> I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the 
benefit
> of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the 
R9 plugin
> as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of 
view
> Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone 
else. I
> certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new 
version that

> had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.
> 
> We seem to be in a bit of a new ink/software gap.
> 
> Martin Wesley

On 9/2/02 12:26 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

>> I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most fade
>> resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what exactly is
> the
>> difference?
> 
> I believe the FS and VM black are the same at this point and only the MIS
> original quads K is different.

Paul just confirmed that...but the MIS DD K is a different beast.  The FS
and VM is best on EAM and Hahnemuhle...but as I recall the MIS DD K does
better on Museo and Eclipse...complete reversal.
 
>>  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
>> Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and color of the
>> rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black across
> all
>> the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.
> 
> The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT black is red
> warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of both worlds
> as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer to
> FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some empty carts
> for the 1280 so I should give it a try.

Why don't you...I'll try the MIS DD the same way.

> Well I think that they really ought to do that. They would really only need
> to offer it in bottles as I think most of the heavy users are working with
> CIS or hand filling. This then raises the problems of the software. We
> already have reports of poor profile matches with some printer/paper
> combinations with the Selenium PT and changing the black would add to the
> problems. Obviously from the way Jon is burning his bridges with Sundance on
> his list I don't expect any new profiles for the Piezo driver and the
> PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless they want to
> greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and slash the
> price.

Imageprint profiles are free for Imageprint...they will profile anything you
like...and in addition there is talk about them making their profiling
software available for free...all you need is a densitometer.

> I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the benefit
> of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the R9 plugin
> as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of view
> Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone else. I
> certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new version that
> had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.
> 
It seems to me that it would certainly be to his benefit...but this market
is somewhat irrational...people get mad and stay mad at each other...but
obviously not forever...Colorbyte and Cone are back together again!

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test


> On 9/2/02 12:26 AM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
> Paul just confirmed that...but the MIS DD K is a different beast.  The FS
> and VM is best on EAM and Hahnemuhle...but as I recall the MIS DD K does
> better on Museo and Eclipse...complete reversal.

That's the alternate black from their archival color inks. Hadn't considered
that one. Is it a neutral or war/neutral black.
>
(snip)
> >
> > The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT black is
red
> > warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of both
worlds
> > as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer to
> > FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some empty
carts
> > for the 1280 so I should give it a try.
>
> Why don't you...I'll try the MIS DD the same way.

That should be interesting. maybe we can both send wedges to Paul and he
will be kind enough to stick them in his fader when he has time.
>
(snip)

> > PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless they
want to
> > greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and slash
the
> > price.
>
> Imageprint profiles are free for Imageprint...they will profile anything
you
> like...and in addition there is talk about them making their profiling
> software available for free...all you need is a densitometer.

Do you have a test target I can print out and send them? The profiling
software would be great! Especially if we are allowed to share the profiles.
There are enough of us with spectrophotometers at this point that we could
very rapidly cover just about everything out there in the way of paper and
ink combinations which would make IP very attractive with limited
development cost to ColorByte.

As it currently stands though I would not recommend it for the 1280 due to
the lack of profiles, they don't even have the MIS-VM profiles although the
website says they are supported, and the high cost. Lots of great features
that really are of little use to someone doing quad printing on a 1280. The
dither is on a par with the Piezo/R9 plugin but no better.
>
> > I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the
benefit
> > of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the R9
plugin
> > as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of view
> > Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone else.
I
> > certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new version
that
> > had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.
> >
> It seems to me that it would certainly be to his benefit...but this market
> is somewhat irrational...people get mad and stay mad at each other...but
> obviously not forever...Colorbyte and Cone are back together again!
>
Well, Hiram didn't sound very interested, but perhaps if some other people
would write him and make our wishes know he might get interested. I gather
they do not have the huge collection of printers that ConeTech does but I am
sure there would be many users who would be willing to work with Sundance
for free and provide test patch printouts to get the PiezoTone and FS inks
profiled in the plugin.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
snip
> ink combinations which would make IP very attractive with limited
> development cost to ColorByte.
> 
> As it currently stands though I would not recommend it for the 1280
due to
> the lack of profiles, they don't even have the MIS-VM profiles
although the
> website says they are supported, and the high cost. Lots of great
features
> that really are of little use to someone doing quad printing on a
1280. The
> dither is on a par with the Piezo/R9 plugin but no better.

I take it you've had the chance to try it then. Somewhere I thought I
saw a comment from you that you were getting no increase in Dmax from
it. That comment along with this are of interest. I think any
experiences you have with it would be of great interest here, we have
very little variety of reports so far.

> > > I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the
> benefit
> > > of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the R9
> plugin
> > > as well as the Sundance inks.

They would be very well advised to do so. Conetech's sales of the
plugin actually went up with the arrival of the alternative MIS
inkset. Many have migrated from the Sundance inks, they'd sell far
more plugins if they supported other inksets. If you are famliliar
with the plugin, you know that there is a dropdown selection box for
inksets, as well as the other one for paper profiles. It seems ready
to go, they should just do it, particularly since it sounds like they
are going to continue to develope it for future OS's.
I think I read they have a forum on their site, interested people
should inundate them with requests for this.
Tyler