Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] PiezoTone Selenium 300 Hr Fade test


> On 9/1/02 9:35 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:
>
> > As you and I have discussed off list, there may be issues of activation
> > energies in the warm/fade reactions. You have broader experience in the
> > coatings industry than I have, what do you think the basic reaction is
in
> > the warm/fade? A simple oxidation of the pigments accelerated by photo
> > energy or something else?
>
> I'm most certain that it is the "dyestuff" that they are adding that's
> burning off.  This looks like what happens to the 25% dye in the Gen4 (Gen
> Enhanced) black.  I was hoping for better technology than this...but I
agree
> it is disappointing.  The problem at this point is that we really do need
a
> failure point.  If Paul's 300hr equals 100 Wilhelm years we may not have a
> problem...but if it doesn't...what does it equal?

Exactly. Paul has some 2200 wedges to test against a couple of the quad
sets. This will give us a data point compared to an ink with some "Wilhelm
years" attached to it but even then I am uncomfortable in drawing real life
conclusions since Wilhelm and his customers are not showing us "before" and
"after" images of the aged prints or test targets or data. I think that MIS
was the only exception in their sharing of their RIT data.
>
> > At a guess the Xenon is more broad spectrum than Paul's fluorescent
tubes.
> > Given the same flux I would expect the higher UV content source to be
more
> > damaging.
>
> Hard to say...my guess is that Paul's fader errs on the side of having too
> much heat build up...this could greatly accelerate oxidation.  The
> commercial fade-o-meters carefully manage heat through the use of constant
> rotation and cooling fans.

Good point. The heat factor could make Paul's test a much more brutal one
which would speak highly of the inks that faired well but would not
necessarily reflect so badly on those that did not.
>
> I guess the appropriate issue to resurrect is what was the most fade
> resistant black again?  MIS FS...or was it MIS VM...and what exactly is
the
> difference?

I believe the FS and VM black are the same at this point and only the MIS
original quads K is different.

>  It would be easy to sub that black into a set of the Selenium
> Piezotones and give up dmax...but get the fade resistance and color of the
> rest of the Piezotones...remember Cone simply uses the same black across
all
> the sets...so it shouldn't matter whose you use.

The problem is that the FS/VM black is very neutral and the PT black is red
warm so if you made that substitution you would have the best of both worlds
as far as warm/fade but I suspect you would have an ink set closer to
FS-Neutral than Selenium PT in hue. I have both on hand and some empty carts
for the 1280 so I should give it a try. I mixed some PT and VM blacks
together tonight to see if there are any obvious adverse reactions since Jon
was explicit about purging between original Piezo and PiezoTone. Even though
the inks would be in separate chambers and nozzles Tyler pointed out to me
that he had lost a head due to parking pad contamination between
incompatible inks a few years ago. In smelling the two inks the VM k has
that familiar heavy molecular weight alcohol or perhaps a glycol smell while
the PT k smells more like IPA or ethanol. Miss having a lab handy!

>  I know when I have talked
> to Bill and Jon about this they have mentioned that they have considered
> offering an all pigment black for those who are really set on having the
> best longevity.

Well I think that they really ought to do that. They would really only need
to offer it in bottles as I think most of the heavy users are working with
CIS or hand filling. This then raises the problems of the software. We
already have reports of poor profile matches with some printer/paper
combinations with the Selenium PT and changing the black would add to the
problems. Obviously from the way Jon is burning his bridges with Sundance on
his list I don't expect any new profiles for the Piezo driver and the
PiezoTones. ImagePrint is not a solution for the desktop unless they want to
greatly increase the number of profiles, supported printers and slash the
price.

I suggested to Hiram French that it might be to his benefit and the benefit
of the end users to profile the MIS-FS and PiezoTone inks for the R9 plugin
as well as the Sundance inks. I think that from a software point of view
Sundance may be in a position to respond more quickly than anyone else. I
certainly would be willing to pay for an upgrade or a whole new version that
had 40 paper profiles for 6 different inks and 7 desktop printers.

We seem to be in a bit of a new ink/software gap.

Martin Wesley