Digital BW, The Print

Bob, I guess the only thing to do is get a bottle of the eboni black and
do a swab and dip and dunk test 
to compare it's blackness with Gen. 4. 

I just can't live with a weak print with no deep black. I just can't!

Jerry. Will order the eboni now. There's no place to actually order it
on MIS's website. Do you know how to actually order it? Sent a letter to
Bob Zeiss, but never recieved an answer.

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
> I've seen it...but I know its wrong...all that does is convince me that
> Wilhelm's old test methods which he has now changed because they didn't work
> were bad. Those same test methods said the 1270 Epson dyes would last for 25
> years...right...those were the dyes that color shifted beyond recognition in
> 6 months of average room light. As I mentioned somewhere...the problem is
> what the definition of fading is...Wilhelm's is way too loose for me.  If
> you look at Cone's fade tests you can see the MIS FS black fade noticeably
> with only 1000 hours in a Xenon chamber (Museum black passes that test). The
> Cone tests use a reasonable 2 delta E change as a pass. The MIS FS black has
> very little of its strength from dye...but that fries almost immediately...
> with the net effect a weak black. The Gen4 is a low loading pigment black
> trumped up with dye...the dye will be gone in no time and then you are left
> with a week black.  I believe that this was well documented by Paul within
> the last 6 months or so.
> 
> Jerry, its great that you are happy with the Gen4 black...but I don't think
> it should be considered in the same sentence as the new high load pigment
> blacks (e.g., Ultrachrome Matte Black, Piezotone Museum Black, MIS Eboni
> Black).  They will be stronger than the Gen4 in a matter of months with room
> lighting...I think that's the point that is important for people to
> understand.  I don't think there is anything wrong with using Gen4 for a
> dark storage short range portfolio...but with 25% dye it is simply not an
> appropriate choice for archival prints...particularly on matte paper which
> won't protect the dye.  Now John Edmunds new dye based inks with his special
> enfused paper may be another story...I hear his longevity estimates are up
> to 60 years...pretty good for color work.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 3/10/03 12:30 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > It is on Media Street's site, the enhanced black was rated by Wilhelm
> > for 100+ years
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Morrison wrote:
> >> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that calls into question
> >> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40% density failure
> >> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get 100 years from the
> >> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings are a really
> >> bad idea.
> >>
> >> Robert
> >>
> >> On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long
> >>>> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
> >>>> their site.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
> >>>
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> >>> other
> >>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>
> >>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> >>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> >>> page.
> >>>
> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> - Include your full name with your message.
> >>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> >>> them short.
> >>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> >>> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >>> resources on the homepage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> >> page.
> >>
> >> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >> - Include your full name with your message.
> >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> >> them short.
> >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> >> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >> resources on the homepage.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> > page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> > them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/