Digital BW, The Print

"As of March 1, 2003, Eboni has taken the place of the Double Density, VM &
FS black inks. We have not changed part numbers or prices, but this is what
you will now get when you order VM, VMS, FS, FSN or Double Density Black. It
has the same Dmax, 1.72 as the other inks and will not effect profiles or
workflow curves. It is the best black ink we have ever made and it is
superior to Cone's Museum Black. It is also what we use in our PG and 7600
Archival inks as the Matte Black. The older co-solvent based black is no
longer available."


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 5:32 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers
>
>
> Bob, I guess the only thing to do is get a bottle of the eboni black and
> do a swab and dip and dunk test
> to compare it's blackness with Gen. 4.
>
> I just can't live with a weak print with no deep black. I just can't!
>
> Jerry. Will order the eboni now. There's no place to actually order it
> on MIS's website. Do you know how to actually order it? Sent a letter to
> Bob Zeiss, but never recieved an answer.
>
> Jerry
>
> Robert Morrison wrote:
> >
> > I've seen it...but I know its wrong...all that does is convince me that
> > Wilhelm's old test methods which he has now changed because
> they didn't work
> > were bad. Those same test methods said the 1270 Epson dyes
> would last for 25
> > years...right...those were the dyes that color shifted beyond
> recognition in
> > 6 months of average room light. As I mentioned somewhere...the
> problem is
> > what the definition of fading is...Wilhelm's is way too loose
> for me.  If
> > you look at Cone's fade tests you can see the MIS FS black fade
> noticeably
> > with only 1000 hours in a Xenon chamber (Museum black passes
> that test). The
> > Cone tests use a reasonable 2 delta E change as a pass. The MIS
> FS black has
> > very little of its strength from dye...but that fries almost
> immediately...
> > with the net effect a weak black. The Gen4 is a low loading
> pigment black
> > trumped up with dye...the dye will be gone in no time and then
> you are left
> > with a week black.  I believe that this was well documented by
> Paul within
> > the last 6 months or so.
> >
> > Jerry, its great that you are happy with the Gen4 black...but I
> don't think
> > it should be considered in the same sentence as the new high
> load pigment
> > blacks (e.g., Ultrachrome Matte Black, Piezotone Museum Black, MIS Eboni
> > Black).  They will be stronger than the Gen4 in a matter of
> months with room
> > lighting...I think that's the point that is important for people to
> > understand.  I don't think there is anything wrong with using Gen4 for a
> > dark storage short range portfolio...but with 25% dye it is
> simply not an
> > appropriate choice for archival prints...particularly on matte
> paper which
> > won't protect the dye.  Now John Edmunds new dye based inks
> with his special
> > enfused paper may be another story...I hear his longevity
> estimates are up
> > to 60 years...pretty good for color work.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > On 3/10/03 12:30 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > It is on Media Street's site, the enhanced black was rated by Wilhelm
> > > for 100+ years
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Morrison wrote:
> > >> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that
> calls into question
> > >> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40%
> density failure
> > >> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get
> 100 years from the
> > >> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings
> are a really
> > >> bad idea.
> > >>
> > >> Robert
> > >>
> > >> On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was
> an awful long
> > >>>> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
> > >>>> their site.
> > >>>
> > >>> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
> > >>>
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>