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[Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

[Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-09 by Paul Roark

> >This was on the MIS site today:
>
> >Mar 2, 2003 - Eboni Black Ink Released
> >We have developed a better archival black ink. It has a Dmax of
> >1.72 on Epson Archival Matte, and shows no signs of fading ...


JM Humbert wrote:

>should this new kind of ink (may be the first ink to be modified in
>the MIS FS quad set, the three lighter blacks coming soon?) give
>better results when used with semi gloss and glossy papers?

Eboni black is a matte black for matte paper only.  For glossy or
semi-gloss, you'll need to use one of the "Photo" backs, as well as a
midtone inkset that is RC paper compatible.

I don't know what MIS's plans are for updating the FS inksets.  The VM 4.3
cyan is the same density as the FS cyan, so a warm FS would be very easy to
make.  The VM 4.3 toner mix could also easily be used to tone the inkset and
make a "selenium" or "medium warm" inkset.  So, MIS has the components to
whip out a several RC compatible FS inksets rather quickly if they want to.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-09 by Jerry Olson

Paul, MIS says they are discontinuing several of their black inks, FS, 
VM, etc. They are replacing it with the 4.3
Eboni black. Nothing should change concerning workflows or curves.

Jerry



Paul Roark wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>>This was on the MIS site today:
>>
>>>Mar 2, 2003 - Eboni Black Ink Released
>>>We have developed a better archival black ink. It has a Dmax of
>>>1.72 on Epson Archival Matte, and shows no signs of fading ...
>>
> 
> 
> JM Humbert wrote:
> 
> 
>>should this new kind of ink (may be the first ink to be modified in
>>the MIS FS quad set, the three lighter blacks coming soon?) give
>>better results when used with semi gloss and glossy papers?
> 
> 
> Eboni black is a matte black for matte paper only.  For glossy or
> semi-gloss, you'll need to use one of the "Photo" backs, as well as a
> midtone inkset that is RC paper compatible.
> 
> I don't know what MIS's plans are for updating the FS inksets.  The VM 4.3
> cyan is the same density as the FS cyan, so a warm FS would be very easy to
> make.  The VM 4.3 toner mix could also easily be used to tone the inkset and
> make a "selenium" or "medium warm" inkset.  So, MIS has the components to
> whip out a several RC compatible FS inksets rather quickly if they want to.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Paul Roark

Jerry,

You wrote:

>MIS says they are discontinuing several of their black inks, FS,
>VM, etc. They are replacing it with the 4.3
>Eboni black. Nothing should change concerning workflows or curves.

Yes, MIS also seems to be saying that just putting the new Eboni in the
system is OK.  Today, in response to my question about this, MIS sent the
following:

"Density is just slightly higher than the VM or FS black.
No compatibility issues between these and Eboni.
Cleaning and flushing not required.  ...  I will make
note of it on the [MIS] site."

So, I take it they think the new black ink can just be poured into the CFS
bottle.

Jerry, this new ink does not solve the problem that pigmented inks on matte
paper do not give a great dmax.  I think it's great for me and others who
want the longest possible life for their photographs, but I know you like
the blacker black of the dye-enhanced inks.  However, you wrote:

>The gen 4 black has a +100 year rating according to MIS.

Obviously you meant that Media Street, the seller of Generations 4, claimed
that Gen 4 has a 100 year life.  I must say that I really doubt that the Gen
4 Enhanced black ink has been rated that way by Wilhelm or RIT.  I have
never seen such a claim.  Perhaps some of the testing procedures test an
entire inkset by looking at the midtones where there simply is no black ink
present.  Perhaps that way the entire inkset was rated at 100 years, but
I've never seen that on the Wilhelm website either.

Looking just at the Gen 4 black ink, however, I don't see how it could be
called a "100 year" ink.  It has a great dmax and is the ink I recommend for
those who need that extra punch and don't need serious longevity.  However,
it is a compromise ink for those, like you, who want that punchier black.
It's not in the same league with the new Eboni or Museum blacks in terms of
expected display life.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Jerry Olson

Thanks paul.

Right now, my printer is down, and I have to call epson. Their recorded 
message says I would have to wait about
48 minutes, so will try later.

Jerry

>>The gen 4 black has a +100 year rating according to MIS.


> Obviously you meant that Media Street, the seller of Generations 4

Yes, Media Street!

   I must say that I really doubt that the Gen
> 4 Enhanced black ink has been rated that way by Wilhelm or RIT.  I have
> never seen such a claim.  

I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long 
time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
their site.

I wish the Piezotone inksets weren't so expensive. The selenium set with 
the black black is beautiful.

Jerry

RE: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Tim Atherton

> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long 
> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
> their site.

http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam

RE: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Tim Atherton

I'm having trouble following all the data through the different threads on
black blacks!

so:

which has the greater DMax:

MIS FS-N black (previous generation, before the new eboni)

or

Generations 4 ?

----

Also, can the new MIS UC PhotoBlack be used as a black with the MIS FS-N
inks?


thanks

tim

Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Robert Morrison

Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that calls into question
all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40% density failure
and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get 100 years from the
enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings are a really
bad idea.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:

>> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long
>> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
>> their site.
> 
> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Ernst Dinkla

> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that calls
into question
> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40%
density failure
> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get 100
years from the
> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings
are a really
> bad idea.

Robert,

In the period that Wilhelm hardly published any data, just after
the Epson 1270 orange plague disaster and so before the changed
testing setup, he published some small lists of tests still
running. Mediastreet's Generations Enhanced on Royal Plush (aka
German Etching) got a  ">75 years rating + test going on" in the
first data sheet and several months later a ">100 years rating"
in the last data sheet. Meanwhile we all had seen that the black
wouldn't keep its density in window tests. Wilhelm is mainly
measuring colour shifts.

Still it has been a good choice for colour inks considering its
gamut, lower metamerism and its fade resistance. A nice solution
between the era of dye inks and today's high load pigment inks.
Better than Epson's Archival ink on gamut and metamerism but not
on fade resistance. The "fadeproof" dye inks on matt paper are
fading much faster.

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Jerry Olson

Thanks Tim. I knew I'd seen it.

According to Media Street then, the Enhanced Generations 4 black (the 
deepest black there is) is rated by
Wilhelm to over 100 years.  That should certainly be good enough for the 
vast majority on these lists. Certainly
Good enough for me.

I seriously doubt that ANY ink set will not change in 25 years, however 
wild the claims may be.  But if it lasts
that long, It will be good enough for me!

Jerry





Tim Atherton wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>>I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long 
>>time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
>>their site.
> 
> 
> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Jerry Olson

Hi Bob,

It is on Media Street's site, the enhanced black was rated by Wilhelm 
for 100+ years

Jerry




Robert Morrison wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that calls into question
> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40% density failure
> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get 100 years from the
> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings are a really
> bad idea.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long
>>>time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
>>>their site.
>>
>>http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
>>
>>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
>>resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>>page.
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Jerry Olson

Tim, the enhanced black is the blackest ink out there with pigments in it.
Don't know the answer to your second question.

Jerry

Tim Atherton wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I'm having trouble following all the data through the different threads on
> black blacks!
> 
> so:
> 
> which has the greater DMax:
> 
> MIS FS-N black (previous generation, before the new eboni)
> 
> or
> 
> Generations 4 ?
> 
> ----
> 
> Also, can the new MIS UC PhotoBlack be used as a black with the MIS FS-N
> inks?
> 
> 
> thanks
> 
> tim
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-10 by Robert Morrison

I've seen it...but I know its wrong...all that does is convince me that
Wilhelm's old test methods which he has now changed because they didn't work
were bad. Those same test methods said the 1270 Epson dyes would last for 25
years...right...those were the dyes that color shifted beyond recognition in
6 months of average room light. As I mentioned somewhere...the problem is
what the definition of fading is...Wilhelm's is way too loose for me.  If
you look at Cone's fade tests you can see the MIS FS black fade noticeably
with only 1000 hours in a Xenon chamber (Museum black passes that test). The
Cone tests use a reasonable 2 delta E change as a pass. The MIS FS black has
very little of its strength from dye...but that fries almost immediately...
with the net effect a weak black. The Gen4 is a low loading pigment black
trumped up with dye...the dye will be gone in no time and then you are left
with a week black.  I believe that this was well documented by Paul within
the last 6 months or so.

Jerry, its great that you are happy with the Gen4 black...but I don't think
it should be considered in the same sentence as the new high load pigment
blacks (e.g., Ultrachrome Matte Black, Piezotone Museum Black, MIS Eboni
Black).  They will be stronger than the Gen4 in a matter of months with room
lighting...I think that's the point that is important for people to
understand.  I don't think there is anything wrong with using Gen4 for a
dark storage short range portfolio...but with 25% dye it is simply not an
appropriate choice for archival prints...particularly on matte paper which
won't protect the dye.  Now John Edmunds new dye based inks with his special
enfused paper may be another story...I hear his longevity estimates are up
to 60 years...pretty good for color work.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 3/10/03 12:30 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Hi Bob,
> 
> It is on Media Street's site, the enhanced black was rated by Wilhelm
> for 100+ years
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Morrison wrote:
>> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that calls into question
>> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40% density failure
>> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get 100 years from the
>> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings are a really
>> bad idea.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
>> On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long
>>>> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
>>>> their site.
>>> 
>>> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
>>> 
>>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
>>> other
>>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>>> 
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>> 
>>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
>>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
>>> page.
>>> 
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>>> them short.
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>>> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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>>> resources on the homepage.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>>  
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-11 by Jerry Olson

Bob, I guess the only thing to do is get a bottle of the eboni black and
do a swab and dip and dunk test 
to compare it's blackness with Gen. 4. 

I just can't live with a weak print with no deep black. I just can't!

Jerry. Will order the eboni now. There's no place to actually order it
on MIS's website. Do you know how to actually order it? Sent a letter to
Bob Zeiss, but never recieved an answer.

Jerry

Robert Morrison wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I've seen it...but I know its wrong...all that does is convince me that
> Wilhelm's old test methods which he has now changed because they didn't work
> were bad. Those same test methods said the 1270 Epson dyes would last for 25
> years...right...those were the dyes that color shifted beyond recognition in
> 6 months of average room light. As I mentioned somewhere...the problem is
> what the definition of fading is...Wilhelm's is way too loose for me.  If
> you look at Cone's fade tests you can see the MIS FS black fade noticeably
> with only 1000 hours in a Xenon chamber (Museum black passes that test). The
> Cone tests use a reasonable 2 delta E change as a pass. The MIS FS black has
> very little of its strength from dye...but that fries almost immediately...
> with the net effect a weak black. The Gen4 is a low loading pigment black
> trumped up with dye...the dye will be gone in no time and then you are left
> with a week black.  I believe that this was well documented by Paul within
> the last 6 months or so.
> 
> Jerry, its great that you are happy with the Gen4 black...but I don't think
> it should be considered in the same sentence as the new high load pigment
> blacks (e.g., Ultrachrome Matte Black, Piezotone Museum Black, MIS Eboni
> Black).  They will be stronger than the Gen4 in a matter of months with room
> lighting...I think that's the point that is important for people to
> understand.  I don't think there is anything wrong with using Gen4 for a
> dark storage short range portfolio...but with 25% dye it is simply not an
> appropriate choice for archival prints...particularly on matte paper which
> won't protect the dye.  Now John Edmunds new dye based inks with his special
> enfused paper may be another story...I hear his longevity estimates are up
> to 60 years...pretty good for color work.
> 
> Robert
> 
> On 3/10/03 12:30 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > It is on Media Street's site, the enhanced black was rated by Wilhelm
> > for 100+ years
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Robert Morrison wrote:
> >> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that calls into question
> >> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40% density failure
> >> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get 100 years from the
> >> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings are a really
> >> bad idea.
> >>
> >> Robert
> >>
> >> On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was an awful long
> >>>> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
> >>>> their site.
> >>>
> >>> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
> >>>
> >>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> >>> other
> >>> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>>
> >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>>
> >>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> >>> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> >>> page.
> >>>
> >>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >>> - Include your full name with your message.
> >>> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> >>> them short.
> >>> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> >>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> >>> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> >>> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >>> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> >>> resources on the homepage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >>
> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >>
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RE: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-11 by Tim Atherton

"As of March 1, 2003, Eboni has taken the place of the Double Density, VM &
FS black inks. We have not changed part numbers or prices, but this is what
you will now get when you order VM, VMS, FS, FSN or Double Density Black. It
has the same Dmax, 1.72 as the other inks and will not effect profiles or
workflow curves. It is the best black ink we have ever made and it is
superior to Cone's Museum Black. It is also what we use in our PG and 7600
Archival inks as the Matte Black. The older co-solvent based black is no
longer available."
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 5:32 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS new black and glossy papers
>
>
> Bob, I guess the only thing to do is get a bottle of the eboni black and
> do a swab and dip and dunk test
> to compare it's blackness with Gen. 4.
>
> I just can't live with a weak print with no deep black. I just can't!
>
> Jerry. Will order the eboni now. There's no place to actually order it
> on MIS's website. Do you know how to actually order it? Sent a letter to
> Bob Zeiss, but never recieved an answer.
>
> Jerry
>
> Robert Morrison wrote:
> >
> > I've seen it...but I know its wrong...all that does is convince me that
> > Wilhelm's old test methods which he has now changed because
> they didn't work
> > were bad. Those same test methods said the 1270 Epson dyes
> would last for 25
> > years...right...those were the dyes that color shifted beyond
> recognition in
> > 6 months of average room light. As I mentioned somewhere...the
> problem is
> > what the definition of fading is...Wilhelm's is way too loose
> for me.  If
> > you look at Cone's fade tests you can see the MIS FS black fade
> noticeably
> > with only 1000 hours in a Xenon chamber (Museum black passes
> that test). The
> > Cone tests use a reasonable 2 delta E change as a pass. The MIS
> FS black has
> > very little of its strength from dye...but that fries almost
> immediately...
> > with the net effect a weak black. The Gen4 is a low loading
> pigment black
> > trumped up with dye...the dye will be gone in no time and then
> you are left
> > with a week black.  I believe that this was well documented by
> Paul within
> > the last 6 months or so.
> >
> > Jerry, its great that you are happy with the Gen4 black...but I
> don't think
> > it should be considered in the same sentence as the new high
> load pigment
> > blacks (e.g., Ultrachrome Matte Black, Piezotone Museum Black, MIS Eboni
> > Black).  They will be stronger than the Gen4 in a matter of
> months with room
> > lighting...I think that's the point that is important for people to
> > understand.  I don't think there is anything wrong with using Gen4 for a
> > dark storage short range portfolio...but with 25% dye it is
> simply not an
> > appropriate choice for archival prints...particularly on matte
> paper which
> > won't protect the dye.  Now John Edmunds new dye based inks
> with his special
> > enfused paper may be another story...I hear his longevity
> estimates are up
> > to 60 years...pretty good for color work.
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > On 3/10/03 12:30 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bob,
> > >
> > > It is on Media Street's site, the enhanced black was rated by Wilhelm
> > > for 100+ years
> > >
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert Morrison wrote:
> > >> Yep...that is certainly ridiculous.  Unfortunately that
> calls into question
> > >> all of their numbers.  But my guess is that if you allow 40%
> density failure
> > >> and are unconcerned by color shift you probably could get
> 100 years from the
> > >> enhanced black.  This is a prime example of why year ratings
> are a really
> > >> bad idea.
> > >>
> > >> Robert
> > >>
> > >> On 3/10/03 9:49 AM, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> I saw it on their site about a month ago. I thought it was
> an awful long
> > >>>> time for ink with dye in it. I can't find it now, on
> > >>>> their site.
> > >>>
> > >>> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/support/generations_info.tam
> > >>>
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Re: MIS new black and glossy papers

2003-03-11 by bob_michaels

Jerry:
Bob Zeiss told me that they just were not very good at responding to
e-mail, no matter how hard they tried. He suggested I call, which I've
always done and someone has always called me back that same day. 
Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
Will order the eboni now. There's no place to actually order it
> on MIS's website. Do you know how to actually order it? Sent a
letter to Bob Zeiss, but never recieved an answer.
> 
> Jerry

Re: Prices: MIS new black and others

2003-03-11 by mh

Now that a lot of these inks seem to be pretty close (eboni and museum 
for example) can someone post a list of prices and the best place to 
buy them? I have a feeling there are places that I have not heard about 
as I have only recently been back on these lists. Thanks,

-mh


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson <
jerryolson@r...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Bob, I guess the only thing to do is get a bottle of the eboni black and
> do a swab and dip and dunk test 
> to compare it's blackness with Gen. 4. 
> 
> I just can't live with a weak print with no deep black. I just can't!
> 
> Jerry. Will order the eboni now. There's no place to actually order it
> on MIS's website. Do you know how to actually order it? Sent a letter to
> Bob Zeiss, but never recieved an answer.
> 
> Jerry

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