Digital BW, The Print

Tyler,

My two cents mixed with yours again.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "TerryR" 
<terryr1028@h...> 
> wrote:
> Terry, I was, in fact trying to balance out the posts, and was 
> responding to what I thought was an unblanced post. I think this 
list, 
> in particular, has a high percentage of members disgruntled with 
> Piezo. 

I think this in part supports our "differences with with happy users" 
since they don't vent as often on the Piezo list.

> I should know better by now to post this kind of thing here.

Even if we disagree, that is what the list is for.
 
> Without turning this into a big back and forth thing, I'll simply 
tell 
> you why I think what I think.
> 
> > I am glad that, as you say, there are those that can use Cone 
Inks 
> > with little or no problems, but feel that you are perhaps in the 
> > minority, not the majority as you say.
> 
> I have no idea why you would say that since I've seen nothing to 
> support it, although you have no reason to accept what I say 
either. 

True, but read your own statement above, and all of the posts on the 
Piezo list that support the problems. Why should anyone need to make 
major adjustments to their printers (or worse yet, send back 
otherwise fine printers for Epson to replace) or fight clogs, etc... 
with an ink that is so expensive and "designed" to work with ALL (not 
just a select few) Epson printers?
 
> My opinion rests on my own and the experiences of every user I have 
> regular personal contact with, as well as what I have been told by 
> people who know more about the user base that I shouldn't quote. 
> Again, you have no reason to believe them, or me. But Terry, I've 
seen 
> nothing to support your statement that successful Piezo users are 
in 
> the minority.

See above.

> I have never, ever, had a clogging problem with Piezo 
> ink in an 1160 or a 3000. At the same time, I'm not denying some 
> people have had unsolvable problems.

As I stated before, it is great that you don't have a problem, but 
does that mean that since I live in an area that doesn't cause 
the "Orange Shift" problem to occur on my 870 and 1270's and 1280's, 
that it doesn't? Does this mean that there isn't a problem with that?

> 
> > Cone has always had problems with his inks.
> 
> I just don't know how you can make such a statement. There are 
> problems with the color ink, but they seem unrelated to reported 
> problems with the mono ink.

See my original statement below and go back through the archives of 
the Piezo list, it is all there.

> 
> >B/W Piezo has a long history of clogging, forming crystal 
> > type deposits, and creating sludge in printheads.
> 
> I've been on every Epson printing related list for a long time. 
I've 
> seen a few isolated posts relating to some of the problems you 
> mention, and as I mentioned in the first post there are those 
who've 
> not been able to resolve clogging issues. I've never implied 
> otherwise. But again, I don't see how you can make the above broad 
> statement.

Well, you may be right, but if these problems don't exist then why do 
so many people complain about them?

> 
>  The vast majority 
> > of third party inks (MIS, Generations, etc...) do not exhibit 
these 
> > problems,
> 
> I've had clogs with Lysonic, Fotonic, MIS color, and Generations. I 
> don't recall problems with MIS mono clogs way back when. What else 
is 
> there?

Lysonic and Fotonic I can believe since they were not specifically 
formulated for Epson printers - they aren't even compatible with the 
Epson inks if that tells you anything. MIS and Generations will clog, 
I never said they wouldn't (so will the stock Epson inks), but a 
cleaning cycle or two always clears them. Piezo on the other hand may 
take days or even weeks to become stable in the printer and will 
still come up with some exceptional clogs, also think about the fact 
that they include flush carts with the new kits. If they were 
designed to be compatible why would they take the Lysonic approach to 
this?

> 
> > Here is where I take a big issue with your statement. I have been 
> > using the CIS systems for well over a year now in a wide variety 
of 
> > printers (1200, 1160, 1270, 2000P), and I have never had a 
problem 
> > related to the CIS. You will note that even Cone himself sells 
these 
> > systems (although he does blame them for the 1270, 1280, and 
2000P 
> > problems with the Color Piezo - talk about a contradiction, he 
> > himself can't even get those inks to work with carts, but blames 
the 
> > CIS?!).
> 
> So you are implying Jon Cone is lying?

Based upon some recent events of which I was involved, let's just say 
he is in a state of denial.

> I never said the problem was 
> the CIS itself. I'm saying the combination of CIS and Piezo inks 
seems 
> to be where the problems are occurring. One poster suspects, after 
> careful examination, there was some chemical reaction between a 
> sealant used in the CIS and the ink creating a greenish by product 
> coming from the sealant working it's way into the ink flow. This 
has 
> yet to be played out. I have no more idea than anyone else what the 
> solution will be. These system and ink combos are relatively new, 
that 
> problems are emerging doesn't justify claiming it's badly designed 
> ink.

If your theory holds true, yes it does indicate a problem with the 
ink. If the ink were properly designed for the Epson printer it would 
not have a problem with the CIS. The CIS has never exhibited a 
problem with any other brand of ink that was designed for an Epson 
printer to date.
 
> > 
> > >Any cartridge users 
> > > reporting any of these seemimgly unresolvable problems?
> > 
> > Yes, go read the Color Piezo board.
> 
> I'm talking B&W
> 
> There are also those 
> > using the Piezo B/W carts that report clogs, crystal deposits, 
etc...
> 
> Well, you've got me there. I don't recall particular posts or 
anything 
> suggesting suggesting such an epidemic with cart users. I've never 
> heard of crystal deposits.

See above. I don't know if I would call it an epidemic, just further 
proof that the Piezo ink is not in its current state an optimal 
design for Epson printers.
> 
> > If the problem is only with the CIS as you state, why would he 
need a 
> > chemist to fix it?
> 
> See above.
> 
>  Better yet, why would he need a chemist at all 
> > since he "developed" these inks? They are a derivative of another 
> > brand (that was not designed to be an Epson ink replacement) that 
are 
> > manufactured for him by that company, plain and simple. There are 
> > truly only a few companies that manufacture all of the inks made 
for 
> > inkjet printers. The specialty inks are made from those.
> 
> Perhaps because it's a new problem requiring special techical 
> expertise, or because developing an ink and being specifically 
> involved at the chemcial level aren't necessarily the same thing? I 
> don't know, who cares? It seems he's on the problem, why bash him?

I am not trying to bash him. I am just trying to point out that there 
are problems. He may very well be addressing this, only he truly 
knows for sure. As I stated originally, I feel he has done a lot to 
jump start all of this. His software is what I see as a major 
contribution, not the ink. The software may be tough to beat, but it 
doesn't mean that the ink is worth the price or praise to its users.

> > 
> > This is exactly how the CIS works, it recharges the cart as it 
> > empties, how would refilling by hand be any different?
> 
> Because of the syphon/gravity issues with CIS. Why else are people 
> raising the bottles or the printer to overcome problems. Is it so 
hard 
> to believe inks of different densities may have new problems with 
CIS?

I have never had to raise the bottles as you say with any brand of 
ink to date. If it takes this to get the inks to flow through a cart 
that was designed to handle Epson inks, then that further shows that 
the ink is not designed properly for an Epson printer.

> 
> > Actually hand 
> > refilling is worse since it introduces much larger quantities of 
air 
> > into the cartridge, which as we all know can and does lead to 
even 
> > more problems.
> 
> I filled my own 1160 carts with Piezo, no problem.

That is fine, but how long did you need to wait to use the carts? I 
also feel that you are much more experienced at this than most, and 
would likely do an excellent job of it. :-)

> > 
> > You may actually be onto something with this, but it isn't the 
fault 
> > of the CIS.
> 
> Again, I think it's the combination, and a new one.

Hasn't this combination been in existence for a while now? What makes 
it new?

> 
> ...This is an evolving situation and the gap will 
> > narrow 
> > > > with time.
> > > 
> > > I personally think that's a ways off.
> > 
> > Why?
> 
> Because of the methods I see being used to address it, and the 
> difficulties involved with making these quad worflows perfect. You 
> forget how long quad inks have been around and how many people have 
> been working on it, I don't see a great advance coming to light 
> recently to accelerate progress.

No, I haven't forgot about how long the quads have been around, and 
that is the point. More has happened in a very short time with the 
MIS VM than happened for a long time prior to it. It got people 
excited and interested that didn't have the ability to make the other 
quads work and were left with Piezo as the only game in town as a 
result. The point is that with the renewed interest and what some may 
call competition we will all win in the end. Even Jon is taking note, 
noticed the recent sale that includes the Piezo system and the inks?

> 
> > Didn't this user also have the 7000 for only a few weeks?
> 
> There were more than one, and I brought that up only in the context 
of 
> the tinker factor. As far as whatever situation you refer to above, 
> there are some who would say even a few weeks is too much 
tinkering, I 
> wouldn't be one of them. 

This is why I pay attention to your posts!! You have done as much if 
not more tinkering than any of us.

> Keep in mind all this was in reference to 
> advising a new user of the pros and cons of the two approaches, 
what 
> might their reasonable tinker factor be? He was advised it was 
> minimal. 

I can see what you are saying here, but the workflow is minimal, no 
harder than Piezo once you have the curves. THe curves are where the 
tinkering come in.

> Mike Kravitz, who was also appalled at my post, decided he 
> needed to get some prints done and went back. He's also had Piezo 
> issues as I recall, I'm not ignoring that. The subject here is the 
> tinker factor.

Well, maybe he needed to get the prints done in a hurry and isn't 
quite there yet with the MIS VM. I don't think he would have been 
tinkering with them if he were totally happy with the Piezo though.


> 
> Also, does 
> > the Piezo 7000 use dithering? The desktop versions don't (there 
> > Steadman, that is one of the clues you were looking for), which 
leads 
> > to the banding, window screening, etc... of those "less than 
perfect 
> > printers" that we hear so much about.
> 
> All drivers and RIPs of every kind dither, I don't know what this 
> means.

Well, you say you have some inside info, check into it and I think 
you will find that is one part of the Epson driver that is bypassed 
and not used (dithering), nor is it replaced in the software.

> > 
> > Bottom line Tyler, is that no one system is perfect. You may be 
right 
> > about the "tinker factor", but if Piezo leads to mechanical 
problems 
> > right off the bat or in the very near future, that "tinker 
factor" 
> > for fixing the Piezo problems (clogs, sludge, having to replace 
an 
> > otherwise perfectly good printer, etc...) may prove to be more of 
a 
> > problem than the "tinker factor" for these other alternatives.
> 
> I agree, and again, I sympathize those who have had insurmountable 
> problems. In fact I mentioned a few in my post. My opinion is 
simply 
> that the majority of Piezo users don't have problems, and most of 
them 
> that do are here.
> > 
> > I am not advocating that one sytem is better than the other at 
this 
> > point, but do believe that what you were trying to do was balance 
out 
> > the conversation so to speak, but then took it a little too far 
in 
> > the other direction
> 
> I can only say what I honestly think, based on my experiences, my 
> friends experiences, any "inside" info I can get my hands on, and 
> posts on lists. I also clearly said there are users with problems.
> If we are both faced with the same info, and coming to different 
> conclusions, I guess we are simply exposing the folly of being 
human.

> Tyler

Fair enough, as I said that is the purpose of the list. As to the 
HUMAN part of it, I can't verify your end, but my wife (and a few 
others) may disagree on my end!  :-)

Terry

PS - Just to be fair, I just ordered the newest version of the Piezo 
system and a 980 to try it with. I promise to post my experiences 
with it in a few weeks and eat crow if need be!!